Why did Jewish Christianity die out in the first few centuries of the church?

dqhall

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I was reading it for their view of history. I had my own views and still do. Things that Maybe I would get a clearer picture on. An example is What did the Pharisees teach to do, that they themselves did not do. Just things like that also
The Jews accused Jesus of healing on the Sabbath; a crime punishable by stoning to death. They regularly circumcise on the Sabbath. They offered sacrifices in the temple during the Sabbath until the temple was destroyed. They walked to and from the synagogue. They climbed hotel stairs on the Sabbath where there was no elevator. In hotels where there are elevators, their elevators stopped on every floor, so they would not have to push a button. Pushing buttons has been classified as work, else the elevators would have only stopped at the floor where the button was selected.
 
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ralliann

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The Jews accused Jesus of healing on the Sabbath; a crime punishable by stoning to death. They regularly circumcise on the Sabbath. They offered sacrifices in the temple during the Sabbath until the temple was destroyed. They walked to and from the synagogue. They climbed hotel stairs on the Sabbath where there was no elevator. In hotels where there are elevators, their elevators stopped on every floor, so they would not have to push a button. Pushing buttons has been classified as work, else the elevators would have only stopped at the floor where the button was selected.
I found yet another which I was especially looking at.
Oral law
8 If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, being matters of controversy within thy gates: then shalt thou arise, and get thee up into the place which the LORD thy God shall choose;
9 And thou shalt come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days, and enquire; and they shall shew thee the sentence of judgment:
De 17:10 And thou shalt do according to the sentence <06310> <01697>, which they of that place which the LORD shall choose shall shew thee; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they inform thee:

Oral torah
De 17:11 According to the sentence <06310> of the law <08451> which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do: thou shalt not decline from the sentence which they shall shew thee, to the right hand, nor to the left.
06310 פה peh peh
from 06284; n m; [BDB-804b] {See TWOT on 1738}
AV-mouth 340, commandment 37, edge 35, according 22, word 15, hole 6, end 3, appointment 2, portion 2, tenor 2, sentence 2, misc 32; 498
peh
1) mouth
1a) mouth (of man)
1b) mouth (as organ of speech)
1c) mouth (of animals)
1d) mouth, opening, orifice (of a well, river, etc)
1e) extremity, end pim
2) a weight equal to one third of a shekel, occurs only in #1Sa 13:21
The priesthood did have a book which wrote down the punishments. The Pharisees abolished this after the temple was destroyed.
The reason they rejected it was because it was to be ORAL, not written. Then they turned right around and wrote their orally transmitted decisions for torah, after the temple was destroyed to keep it safeguarded from disappearing and being lost. The exact reason they rejected oral torah from the priestly sect.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Guy, you apparently want very much to believe this and there doesn’t seem to bench point in continuing. Wishing you well!!

If those women of Canaan and of Samaria weren't Israelites then Jesus disobeyed his father. However, many scriptures state that Jesus was faithful to his Father's will, even unto his death.
 
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hedrick

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The problem with a lot of this discussion is that it's based on writings by the groups that won, but which do not show you what led up to it. A good source would be "The Ways That Never Parted: Jews and Christians in Late Antiquity and the Early Middle Ages", ed Adam H. Becker, Adam H. Becker, Annette Yoshiko Reed. The picture one gets from recent work is that up to Constantine, Judaism was a lot more varied than the Talmud and the catholic and proto-catholic writers imply. In many cities, Jews took an active role in the city, which would involve sacrifices to the city gods. This was not viewed as a problem by many, maybe even most Jews. Neither was Christianity. Similarly, many Christians saw no problem with observing the Sabbath, and joining in various Jewish activities.

That makes it hard to define exactly what "Jewish Christianity" was. Probably the real definition would be ethnic Jews who accepted Christ in one way or another. The implication one often gets is that this was a small remnant of James' people from the first century, who slowly died away. But with the large overlaps that actually occurred between people who hung around the synagogues and churches, that would be misleading.

While most remaining literature is from the people who wanted to purify Judaism and Christianity, there are remaining books that one would normally classify as Jewish, but which also accept Christ in one way or another, e.g. the Pseudo-Clementines.

What I've been reading recently suggests that what finally caused a split was when the Roman government adopted Christianity, and supported its leaders' attempt to purify Christianity.
 
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ralliann

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The problem with a lot of this discussion is that it's based on writings by the groups that won, but which do not show you what led up to it. A good source would be "The Ways That Never Parted: Jews and Christians in Late Antiquity and the Early Middle Ages", ed Adam H. Becker, Adam H. Becker, Annette Yoshiko Reed.
Thank you for quoting the source your going on. Now people can look into this.
But yes you are right in that the winners write the history.
The picture one gets from recent work is that up to Constantine, Judaism was a lot more varied than the Talmud and the catholic and proto-catholic writers imply. In many cities, Jews took an active role in the city, which would involve sacrifices to the city gods. This was not viewed as a problem by many, maybe even most Jews. Neither was Christianity.
never heard of this. But it would be nice to look this up to see what it is talking about. As far as I know the Church only cared about those which were preaching Christ. So Jews or pagans involved in this and what they taught I don't think concerned the Church as these people were outside of the Church. But I may not be understanding you here.
Similarly, many Christians saw no problem with observing the Sabbath, and joining in various Jewish activities.
As long as it was "cultural" ? Not a sacramental activity?
That makes it hard to define exactly what "Jewish Christianity" was. Probably the real definition would be ethnic Jews who accepted Christ in one way or another. The implication one often gets is that this was a small remnant of James' people from the first century, who slowly died away. But with the large overlaps that actually occurred between people who hung around the synagogues and churches, that would be misleading.

While most remaining literature is from the people who wanted to purify Judaism and Christianity, there are remaining books that one would normally classify as Jewish, but which also accept Christ in one way or another, e.g. the Pseudo-Clementines.

What I've been reading recently suggests that what finally caused a split was when the Roman government adopted Christianity, and supported its leaders' attempt to purify Christianity.
The early Church was sacramental. The Church also centered around the notion of priestly ministry of which the Levitical service foreshadowed, or patterned in the temple.What would or did Jews do and the priests do that made those services Christian as to be distinctly "Jewish"?
I think those of us which are not so liturgical, and sacramental see the things of Judaism apart from the temple a focus of Judaism. Jews made it that way because the temple and its ministration was gone. But in the Churches of which you are speaking (as purifying) continued a priestly ministration in Christ unto those which were in attendance. So what was Jewish that was missing?
 
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hedrick

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The early Church was sacramental. The Church also centered around the notion of priestly ministry in the temple.What did Jews do and the priests do that made those services "Jewish"? I think those of us which are not so liturgical, and sacramental see the things of Judaism apart from the temple a focus of Judaism. Jews made it that way because the temple and its ministration was gone. But in the Churches of which you are speaking (as purifying) continued a priestly ministration in Christ unto those which were in attendance. So what was Jewish that was missing?
The Catholic and proto Catholic tradition was sacramental. There’s no reason to think that this represents the whole early church.

Note that the work I quoted is not the only source of scholarship on this period.
 
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ralliann

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The Catholic and proto Catholic tradition was sacramental. There’s no reason to think that this represents the whole early church.
You or perhaps the book, spoke of them as purifying the Church. What did they leave out as a priestly ministration that made it purely non Jewish. And what was it that the Jewish Christians added to this ministration that made it "Jewish"?
Note that the work I quoted is not the only source of scholarship on this period.
Ok, but the question still remains.

Judaism whether Levitical (Temple) is Sacramental, so too is Rabbinic synagogue Judaism.
See Mark kinzer on this aspect. In fact I realized this years ago attending Messianic services. It just suddenly dawned on me while we were saying prayers at the service, that keeping what we were doing of Gods commandments which were Jewish (not Levitical Jewish)but apart from the temple ministry were nothing less than sacraments. Sure enough Mark kinzer a leading Messianic Rabbi wrote upon this.


You can read it at this site
https://www.markkinzer.com/articles

"The Enduring Sacramental Character of Jewish Life in the Messiah: A Messianic Jewish Perspective"

2013, Roman Catholic - Messianic Jewish Dialogue Group
 
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Vanellus

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There is often this idea that "Jewish Christianity" faded and "Gentile Christianity" took over. But this seems like a really bad narrative.

Rather we have Apostolic Christianity, comprised of both Jews and Gentiles. It's not that "Gentile Christianity" became dominant, it's that Apostolic Christianity continued to grow in spite of both external pressures (persecution) and internal pressures (heresy). There were always going to be more Gentile Christians than Jewish Christians simply on the basis of pure numbers.
-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis recall how the term Jewish Christianity is defined by the Cambridge History of Christianity. Jewish Christians are defined as those who continue to obey Jewish laws such as circumcision and food regulations. We know the NT apostolic church consisted of both Jews and Gentiles but you can't both keep the Jewish laws and not keep them (without hypocrisy). Why does the letter from the Jerusalem Council refer to "Gentile Christians" if this difference is such a "bad narrative"?
 
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ralliann

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ViaCrucis recall how the term Jewish Christianity is defined by the Cambridge History of Christianity. Jewish Christians are defined as those who continue to obey Jewish laws such as circumcision and food regulations. We know the NT apostolic church consisted of both Jews and Gentiles but you can't both keep the Jewish laws and not keep them (without hypocrisy). Why does the letter from the Jerusalem Council refer to "Gentile Christians" if this difference is such a "bad narrative"?
Aren't you speaking of two different things here? Christianity, vs Christians?
Keeping circumcision and food laws is not "Christianity". Rather it is Jewish. So the Jewish Christians kept Christianity, while Gentiles also kept Christianity. The Christianity is what made both Christians. Am I missing something?
 
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Vanellus

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Aren't you speaking of two different things here? Christianity, vs Christians?
Keeping circumcision and food laws is not "Christianity". Rather it is Jewish. So the Jewish Christians kept Christianity, while Gentiles also kept Christianity. The Christianity is what made both Christians. Am I missing something?
The chapter in the Cambridge History of Christianity is entitled "Jewish Christianity". Christianity is the religion followed by Christians. Jewish Christians in the early church period kept the circumcision and food laws but still regarded themselves as Christians. Their Christianity included keeping the Torah laws.

The author of the chapter was not arguing that Jewish Christianity was more "authentic", but that later saying "no" to Torah observant followers of Jesus (with James the Just as their original leader) having a place in the Christian church led to "Jew" and "Christian" being thought of as antonyms, and all the centuries long consequences of the "bloody history of ecclesiastical anti-Semitism".
 
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ralliann

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The chapter in the Cambridge History of Christianity is entitled "Jewish Christianity". Christianity is the religion followed by Christians. Jewish Christians in the early church period kept the circumcision and food laws but still regarded themselves as Christians. Their Christianity included keeping the Torah laws.
Ok this here would be a problem for them. That stuff is Judaism, that's what makes it Jewish. It is not even specifically Levitical, of which those churches were modeled after. Only Levites were allowed in to perform the priestly ministry? And besides as I said in another post, those Churches were priestly ministrations as according to the pattern of the priesthood, with all the sacraments?. Adding cirumcision and kosher to that how?
The author of the chapter was not arguing that Jewish Christianity was more "authentic", but that later saying "no" to Torah observant followers of Jesus (with James the Just as their original leader) having a place in the Christian church led to "Jew" and "Christian" being thought of as antonyms, and all the centuries long consequences of the "bloody history of ecclesiastical anti-Semitism".
There were Jewish bishops (priests) there. So these also were performing the Christian service as priests along with sacraments. I am not getting the problem here yet.? Making the Christian priesthood strictly Levitical would have been more applicable to being Jewish in the sense of keeping the law?
 
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Vanellus

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"that stuff is Judaism"

Yes that is how it is considered now but for adherents of Jewish Christianity (as defined in the OP) they didn't see it as Judaism separate from Christianity.

In Acts 26:
When they heard this, they glorified God. Then they said to Paul, “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21But they are under the impression that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or observe our customs. 22What then should we do? They will certainly hear that you have come.23Therefore do what we advise you. There are four men with us who have taken a vow. 24Take these men, purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know that there is no truth to these rumors about you, but that you also live in obedience to the law.25As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they must abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality.”26So the next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he entered the temple to give notice of the date when their purification would be complete and the offering would be made for each of them.

There is some speculation that Paul acted wrongly here but I believe there is nothing in the immediate text (or elsewhere in the NT) to suggest this. Paul was a Jew and here was observing Jewish rites as a Jew.
 
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ralliann

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"that stuff is Judaism"

Yes that is how it is considered now but for adherents of Jewish Christianity (as defined in the OP) they didn't see it as Judaism separate from Christianity.

In Acts 26:
When they heard this, they glorified God. Then they said to Paul, “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21But they are under the impression that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or observe our customs. 22What then should we do? They will certainly hear that you have come.23Therefore do what we advise you. There are four men with us who have taken a vow. 24Take these men, purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know that there is no truth to these rumors about you, but that you also live in obedience to the law.25As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they must abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality.”26So the next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he entered the temple to give notice of the date when their purification would be complete and the offering would be made for each of them.

There is some speculation that Paul acted wrongly here but I believe there is nothing in the immediate text (or elsewhere in the NT) to suggest this. Paul was a Jew and here was observing Jewish rites as a Jew.
What has the circumcision to do with the church priestly ministry? Let me put it to you this way.
Judaism did not go to the priest to have him perform the ministry of circumcision. It was something done apart from the priestly service in the temple. The people did not go to the temple to eat kosher foods.
Do you get what I am saying? We simply don't assemble to fellowship in those things. And certainly the historic Churches of which are the subject assembled to be ministered to as a priesthood. What needs to be added to that ministry to make it "Jewish?
Therefore Judaizing was about how one lived their day to day life. And that being a requirement to take part of the assembly to the priestly services.
Therefore the scripture in your post reflects the lie that Paul made being uncircumcision and not keeping traditions, a requirement to be ministered to in the things of Christ. The exact opposite of what was being told among Gentiles by those which preached error. Circumcision nor uncircumcision mattered to be made a part of the assembly to which the priests of Christ ministered unto.
 
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ralliann

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The problem with a lot of this discussion is that it's based on writings by the groups that won, but which do not show you what led up to it. A good source would be "The Ways That Never Parted: Jews and Christians in Late Antiquity and the Early Middle Ages", ed Adam H. Becker, Adam H. Becker, Annette Yoshiko Reed. The picture one gets from recent work is that up to Constantine, Judaism was a lot more varied than the Talmud and the catholic and proto-catholic writers imply. In many cities, Jews took an active role in the city, which would involve sacrifices to the city gods. This was not viewed as a problem by many, maybe even most Jews. Neither was Christianity. Similarly, many Christians saw no problem with observing the Sabbath, and joining in various Jewish activities.

That makes it hard to define exactly what "Jewish Christianity" was. Probably the real definition would be ethnic Jews who accepted Christ in one way or another. The implication one often gets is that this was a small remnant of James' people from the first century, who slowly died away. But with the large overlaps that actually occurred between people who hung around the synagogues and churches, that would be misleading.

While most remaining literature is from the people who wanted to purify Judaism and Christianity, there are remaining books that one would normally classify as Jewish, but which also accept Christ in one way or another, e.g. the Pseudo-Clementines.

What I've been reading recently suggests that what finally caused a split was when the Roman government adopted Christianity, and supported its leaders' attempt to purify Christianity.
So, you simply disagree with the historic Catholic Churches is all. But is it just (i.e. fair) to put upon them the notion of antisemitism because of it?
These Churches believe they are performing a true and real priestly ministration in Christ. Christ through them is bringing forth a true sacrifice from his altar for a ministry to the people assembled.
Disagree with that if you will or must, but it is a distortion of their faith that something "Jewish" needs to be added there. Think in terms of "LEVITICAL". What would you add as "Jewish" to be performed in the temple by the priests? Another thought this brings into the mix is "Jewish" implies that what they are doing is "GENTILE". "Jewish and "Gentile" are nothing but Men. Christ's priesthood is neither Jewish nor Gentile, it's is not of men.
 
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hedrick

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So, you simply disagree with the historic Catholic Churches is all. But is it just (i.e. fair) to put upon them the notion of antisemitism because of it?
The OP asked a historical question. I tried to give a historical answer. I never said whether it was good that both Jewish and Christian leaders tried to get their members to stop activities associated with the other community. Nor did I call it anti-Semitism. I didn't agree or disagree with the actions taken by the churches, except perhaps by implication when I said that I thought both were driven at least in part by institutional interests, in ways that we've seen throughout the history of the church and pretty much every other institution.
 
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ralliann

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The OP asked a historical question. I tried to give a historical answer. I never said whether it was good that both Jewish and Christian leaders tried to get their members to stop activities associated with the other community. Nor did I call it anti-Semitism. I didn't agree or disagree with the actions taken by the churches, except perhaps by implication when I said that I thought both were driven at least in part by institutional interests, in ways that we've seen throughout the history of the church and pretty much every other institution.
Ok, I apologize for my overstep on the point concerning antisemtism being implied by you personally.concerning you personally . I am more asking questions in general it just happened to be you. I mean no offense to you personally. This issue just seems so prevalent to day, and considering the early Christian Church being Catholic many of us have these issues go right over our heads. That is not to say there was not true antisemitism there , there certainly was.
But especially the churches not so liturgical and sacramental don't recognize the issue when it come to bringing Jewishness to a functioning office of priesthood and sacraments. Anyway I apologize if I caused any offense.
 
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pescador

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Ok, I apologize for my overstep on the point concerning antisemtism being implied by you personally.concerning you personally . I am more asking questions in general it just happened to be you. I mean no offense to you personally. This issue just seems so prevalent to day, and considering the early Christian Church being Catholic many of us have these issues go right over our heads. That is not to say there was not true antisemitism there , there certainly was.
But especially the churches not so liturgical and sacramental don't recognize the issue when it come to bringing Jewishness to a functioning office of priesthood and sacraments. Anyway I apologize if I caused any offense.

You said, "the early Christian Church being Catholic..." What are you talking about? The church existed long before the Romans made their pompous, ornate, emperor worship into an official state religion.
 
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ralliann

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You said, "the early Christian Church being Catholic..." What are you talking about? The church existed long before the Romans made their pompous, ornate, emperor worship into an official state religion.
It is that church we are speaking of, so it doesn't matter what came before.
 
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pescador

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It is that church we are speaking of, so it doesn't matter what came before.

It matters a lot what came before. The tile of this thread is "Why did Jewish Christianity die out in the first few centuries of the church" The church means Christianity, not specifically the Catholic church. The earliest churches described by Paul and others were not Catholic.
 
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hedrick

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It matters a lot what came before. The tile of this thread is "Why did Jewish Christianity die out in the first few centuries of the church" The church means Christianity, not specifically the Catholic church. The earliest churches described by Paul and others were not Catholic.
If the recent studies I've pointed to a right (and I confess I'm not a historian), then the final split did occur during the period when it's reasonable to call the Church Catholic. One characteristic of that tradition was that its focus on doctrine, and taking action against anyone who strayed out of a fairly narrow range of acceptable views.
 
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