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Why did Jesus have to experience God's wrath when our sin were placed on Him

Discussion in '"My Two Cents Worth"' started by Curiouscallie, Mar 3, 2018.

  1. Curiouscallie

    Curiouscallie New Member

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    Please help me to understand why Jesus had to be forsaken, dissed by God when He was on the cross because of sin. Does this mean God is angry at us when we sin and can not look at us?
     
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  2. royal priest

    royal priest debtor to grace

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    There's a popular hymn that expresses it pretty well.
    1 Stricken, smitten, and afflicted,
    See Him dying on the tree!
    'Tis the Christ by man rejected;
    yes, my soul, 'tis He, 'tis He!
    'Tis the long-expected Prophet,
    David's Son, yet David's Lord;
    by His Son God now has spoken:
    'tis the true and faithful Word.

    2 Tell me, ye who hear Him groaning,
    was there ever grief like His?
    Friends thro' fear His cause disowning,
    foes insulting is distress;
    many hands were raised to wound Him,
    none would intervene to save;
    but the deepest stroke that pierced Him
    was the stroke that Justice gave.

    3 Ye who think of sin but lightly
    nor suppose the evil great
    here may view its nature rightly,
    here its guilt may estimate.
    Mark the sacrifice appointed,
    see who bears the awful load;
    'tis the Word, the Lord's Anointed,
    Son of Man and Son of God.

    4 Here we have a firm foundation;
    here the refuge of the lost;
    Christ, the Rock of our salvation,
    His the Name of which we boast.
    Lamb of God, for sinners wounded,
    sacrifice to cancel guilt!
    None shall ever be confounded
    who on him their hope have built.
    --Thomas Kelly (1804)

    Notice the second stanza capitalizes Justice, personified as God.
     
  3. Willing-heart

    Willing-heart In Christ Alone. Supporter

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    So how does a Holy God whose Eyes are too pure to look upon sin (Habakkuk 1:13) deals with it: God’s justice said, Adam and Eve must die (for the wages of sin is death – Romans 6:23), but His amazing Grace said, physically they will die, but spiritually I am going to spare them, and He gave them time to repent and accepted the shedding of animal blood as sacrifice for their sins (a foreshadow of the perfect Sacrifice, Christ Jesus)

    Jesus not only carried our sins on the cross, but He became sin, cursed, and died in darkness, but to defeat death, so that we may receive the Light that frees us from darkness and truly live an everlasting life forevermore. God’s Grace is all at Christ’s expense. Jesus the Nazarene, the very image of the living God, paid it all. He chose the cross and chose to wear the crown of thorns as part of the ransom to set us free from the stains of sin that once separated us from God.
     
  4. Arsenios

    Arsenios Russian Orthodox Winter Baptism, Valaam Monastery, Supporter

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    Jesus offered His sinless and pure and holy Life to His Father upon the shame of the Cross in His great Love for man and for all His Creation... I do not recall God "dissing" him on the Cross... Christ ascended the Cross... By doing so He repaired the cosmic tear ripped by Adam's turning from God and to creation in his deceived attempt to become as God...

    Adam died the day he ate of the fruit...
    Christ took that death upon Himself...
    And by His Death destroyed Death in His own Body in Hades...
    And having laid down His Life, He took it up again!
    And we live in the Hope of this Resurrection of our Lord in ourselves...

    God as God chose to do this as a man...
    And as the Son of Man He did do it...
    God does not want us to turn from Him...
    "...for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God..."

    Turning from the Source and Creator of Life is not a good thing for us to do...

    Arsenios
     
  5. dreadnought

    dreadnought Lip service isn't really service. Supporter

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    No, that isn't what it means. Jesus had to die for our sins to free us from Satan's control. That meant that God could not help him.
     
  6. Theophan

    Theophan Member

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    Jesus was not forsaken by God; He simply quoted Psalm 22 to indicate His fulfillment of this Messianic prophecy, speaking not from His divine nature, but from His human nature. Because Christ Jesus is fully Divine and fully human, He possesses also two natures. In His divinity, since He is one with the Holy Trinity, for Christ to be forsaken would mean that the Trinity ceased to be temporarily. Doing this would create an immense problem in trinitarian theology because it means that God is imperfect since the LORD is One God. As One God, He is also Three Persons. These are immutable traits of His Godhead, meaning that God does not change because what is perfect is not subject to change. Thus, in God's divine essence, He does not change. But in Christ's personhood, He assumed our humanity, and therefore, in Christ's personhood, He did change, in a sense. He changed in the sense that He who was fully divine also became fully human. But this does not affect His divinity because, as I have said, His divinity is perfect and thus unchanging. Hence, Christ because in His person, He is both fully God and fully man and one of the three persons that composes the Holy Trinity, we cannot ever say that Jesus was separated or forsaken from or by the Father and the Holy Spirit. In that the Lord bore our sins on the cross, we do not refute this. But in that the Father poured out His wrath on His Son, we cannot utter such blasphemies.

    Let me also quote a mighty man of God, John of Damascus:

    Since our Lord Jesus Christ was without sin (for He committed no sin, He
    Who took away the sin of the world, nor was there any deceit found in His
    mouth ) He was not subject to death, since death came into the world through sin . He dies, therefore, because He took on Himself death on our behalf, and He makes Himself an offering to the Father for our sakes. For we had sinned against Him, and it was meet that He should receive the ransom for us, and that we should thus be delivered from the condemnation. God forbid that the blood of the Lord should have been offered to the tyrant . Wherefore death approaches, and swallowing up the body as a bait is transfixed on the hook of divinity, and after tasting of a sinless and life-giving body, perishes, and brings up again all whom of old he swallowed up. For just as darkness disappears on the introduction of light, so is death repulsed before the assault of life, and brings life to all, but death to the destroyer.

    Wherefore, although He died as man and His Holy Spirit was severed from
    His immaculate body, yet His divinity remained inseparable from both, I
    mean, from His soul and His body, and so even thus His one hypostasis was not divided into two hypostases. For body and soul received simultaneously in the beginning their being in the subsistence of the Word, and although they were severed from one another by death, yet they continued, each of them, having the one subsistence of the Word. So that the one subsistence of the Word is alike the subsistence of the Word, and of soul and body. For at no time had either soul or body a separate subsistence of their own, different from that of the Word, and the subsistence of the Word is for ever one, and at no time two. So that the subsistence of Christ is always one. For, although the soul was separated from the body topically, yet hypostatically they were united through the Word.
     
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  7. Arsenios

    Arsenios Russian Orthodox Winter Baptism, Valaam Monastery, Supporter

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    A great post, exactly correct...

    The Psalms were then, and still are in some places today, not numbered, but were named by their opening words. "Have Mercy on me O God..." thus identifies the great Psalm of Repentance of David [Ps. 50 (51 lxx)]... The opening words become the "name" of the Psalm, and begin the remembrance of its memorization... Anyone standing there would be placed in remembrance of that Psalm by those words of Jesus...

    Welcome to CF, Theophan! Pac NW??

    Arsenios
     
  8. Curiouscallie

    Curiouscallie New Member

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    So your saying because Jesus was sinless ....He couldn't die???
     
  9. Curiouscallie

    Curiouscallie New Member

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    So your saying because Jesus was sinless ....He couldn't die???
     
  10. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Well, what is written ? He did die.
    Death could not hold Him - His body did not see decay.
    YHVH raised Him from the grave.
    He will never die again.
     
  11. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    delete server duplicate
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  12. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Well, what is written ? He did die.
    Death could not hold Him - His body did not see decay.
    YHVH raised Him from the grave.
    He will never die again.
    When we sin it can separate us from/ break/ fellowship, cause illness, even death,
    as written .
    Whether God is angry with us, that is not necessarily so, but possible. It might depend on what we do, if we are His children, and if we trust Him or not.
     
  13. Theophan

    Theophan Member

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    Being sinless does not mean that He was unable to die. We know that that is not the case; that is what Muslims believe, not Christians. Jesus Christ, being God Himself, is not constrained by any limitation. His power is infinite, supreme, and eternal. He creates things that exist out of nonexistence. He is not subject to rules, laws, or anything of the sort. To believe Him to be restricted by anything for any reason would be to destroy the perfection of God, which is utterly falsehood and impiety to the highest degree. Thus, then Lord said, "No one takes my life from Me; I lay it down. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it up again". So, yes, Jesus Christ died, but not in His divine nature! In His humanity, He died, but He who is not subject to death in His divinity never died! And I urge everyone to never believe anything of the sort since that would be heretical.

    To sum it up in a word: Jesus Christ, fully God and fully man, the God-man, is not restrained from laying down His human life, that is, from dying while remaining sinless, because Christ is omnipotent; but as a man, Christ made Himself subject to death, while in His divinity, He could not die. For if He who created all things, is in all things, and preserves all things were to die, then nothing would exist because without God, nothing exists. But this is an absurdity because this sort of event could never characterize God.
     
  14. Theophan

    Theophan Member

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    Your are gracious and kind in welcoming a fool who has not yet begun to know anything. I am but a fig tree with only leaves and no figs. Pray for me, brother, that the Lord not find me without fruit and I be sentenced to be cursed forevermore.

    What do you mean by "Pac NW??"
     
  15. Arsenios

    Arsenios Russian Orthodox Winter Baptism, Valaam Monastery, Supporter

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    But never mind - I see you are from COLO...

    Ever make it up to the monastery near Lake George?

    A.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  16. Arsenios

    Arsenios Russian Orthodox Winter Baptism, Valaam Monastery, Supporter

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    Crucifixion did not kill him... John, who was there close up, tells us from first-hand observation that "He bowed His Head", and "He gave up His spirit..." He did this early on in the Crucifixion, that "no bone of His was broken"... The other two had their legs broken to cause their death. Christ "laid down His life" that He would "take it up again"... Crucifixions lasted a long time, often days... Christ, with the offering of the vinegar to his lips, finished His Passion on the Cross... And then only did He lay down His life by 'the 'giving over' [paradosis - the same term as Tradition] of His spirit to God... His human spirit...

    So perhaps a more correct way of saying this matter is that He could not be killed, unless He consented to be killed, to which He did consent by ascending the Cross for us... [And we too, following Him, are to consent to our voluntary death by denial of self and taking up our own cross, as did Christ, and following Him...] For as by one sin did Adam die, so also by His sinless Death did Christ bring forgiveness of sin and by His Resurrection did He bring His Life to the world... To you and to me, who are baptized into His Death on the Cross, that we should find His Life as members of His Holy Body which is Resurrected from the dead... Here, on earth, in this life of ours, at the intersection called "at hand", right here at the corner of Here and Now...

    Christ could only voluntarily die by laying down His Own human life, and His Holy Martyrs also very voluntarily gave up their own lives... See, for instance, the letters of St Inatius of Antioch, who entreated his Christian Beloved NOT to intercede for him to the Emperor so as to save him from death by the lions in the arena of the public Circus of the Romans... He fervently DESIRED that death... And he received it by God's great Mercy...

    Arsenios
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  17. Arsenios

    Arsenios Russian Orthodox Winter Baptism, Valaam Monastery, Supporter

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    By living the Life He lived, including His Death on the Cross, Christ established for us who are IN HIM, the Way that WE are to FOLLOW Him... The world, you see, regards Him as utterly forsaken, yet it is His fallen human nature that is forsaken, for it is filled with that falleness, and was so filled even at His initial Resurrection from the Dead, when Mary Magdalene first encountered Him, for He said to her: "Do not be touching Me, for I have not yet Ascended (to be) before My Father..." And we know that AFTER ascending, He could physically and in the flesh pass through walls and locked doors etc...

    You see, He was putting the death of Adam to death by His Death without sin on the Cross, the Wood of Shame for the Lawless... And BY means of this Death, Hell swallowed Him Whole, and in Hell He overcame death and freed His Own from its iron bars...

    How many of us who follow Him are able to pass physically in the flesh through walls... Or appear and disappear as did Christ on the road to Emmaeus, and as did Philip, the Baptizer of the Ethopian Eunuch...?

    Such things do not happen with those who have not been yet been ressurrected from the dead... "Narrow the way... (and) Few that find it..." True Maturity in Christ is not exactly commonplace, yes...?

    You and I stand in the shadow of such giants in the Faith of Christ!

    Arsenios
     
  18. Curiouscallie

    Curiouscallie New Member

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    So what I'm understanding is Jesus was sinless. Sin equals death. Jesus could not die because he was sinless but because Jesus was also human that is why He died. And voluntary??.. As you said no one takes my, life I lay it down. So your saying Jesus chose to die for us??
     
  19. Curiouscallie

    Curiouscallie New Member

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    I'm so confused if Jesus was also human how could he defeat death
     
  20. Willing-heart

    Willing-heart In Christ Alone. Supporter

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    Jesus became fully human when He came down to earth and he was, he is, and he will always be forever fully God. Jesus once said to Satan, “you shall not test the Lord your God” Jesus has power over Satan and over sin. He is above all. He is the King of kings and Lord of lords. I stand in awe of his majesty.
     
  21. Theophan

    Theophan Member

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    Correct. That is what I am saying. The laws do not apply to the Law-giver, Christ. The scriptures say, The wages of sin is death. But nowhere in the scriptures does it say, No one can die if they are sinless. No where does it say, It is impossible for Christ to die (as a man, not as God) on the cross if He is sinless. Yes, His death was voluntary because His love is also voluntary. His love for us moved Him to die for us. Nevertheless, He also resurrected from the dead for us and ascended into Heaven for us. Yes, all of these things, including His death, were choices made by Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
     
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