Why did Jesus have to die?

[Steve Petersen]

Twaddle. The rule against adultery is not symbolic or metaphorical.

Expound on what you are suggesting here. I don't see how this relates to the post you are responding to.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Because it is how God chose to forgive sin.
Jesus gave the reason
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

God forgave Israel's sins BEFORE Jesus died. Not following what you are arguing with here.

 

[Neogaia777]

God's moral standards from the OT, do not change and will never change... In that way the truth, nor God, has not changed...

But what has changed is what that/those standard(s) are to mean to us, that much has changed... It is just by an altered or different perspective(s) on them... They are still the target, but the way we get to that target, is what is different and has changed... For example, it is no longer in our own power/strength/ability of whatever, that we try to reach or hit that target or obey...

But that we now depend on the Holy Spirit to "get there", and not ourselves... And walking in and with that Spirit, that we (can ever even possibly) "get there"... Realizing that we may never fully get there (in this life) but that is what shows the need for grace, and being under a new covenant of God's grace is all about... And walking in that new covenant of God's grace, mercy and love... Not using that as excuse to disobey or sin, but as a reason and purpose and driving force to aim for obeying and hitting the high mark or calling (of the) target always...

Again, not in/and or under our own strength and or ability, but God's Spirit in us... (walking in that, ect)...

God Bless!

 

[Inkfingers]

Expound on what you are suggesting here. I don't see how this relates to the post you are responding to.

Ah sorry, posted that on wrong thread.

What point are you getting to though?

 

[Steve Petersen]

Ah sorry, posted that on wrong thread.

What point are you getting to though?

LOL. Yeah, I just did the same thing on another thread.

I don't remember. What was I getting at?

 

[Inkfingers]

LOL. Yeah, I just did the same thing on another thread.

I don't remember. What was I getting at?

Who knows

Coffee?

 

[Steve Petersen]

Yup - Hebrews 8:13

Do you both looking at links, or are you just reacting without doing so?

Hebrews 8:6 [YLT] and now he hath obtained a more excellent service, how much also of a better covenant is he mediator, which on better promises hath been sanctioned,

7 for if that first were faultless, a place would not have been sought for a second.

8 For finding fault, He saith to them, `Lo, days come, saith the Lord, and I will complete with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah, a new covenant,

9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, in the day of My taking [them] by their hand, to bring them out of the land of Egypt -- because they did not remain in My covenant, and I did not regard them, saith the Lord, --

10 because this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, after those days, saith the Lord, giving My laws into their mind, and upon their hearts I will write them, and I will be to them for a God, and they shall be to Me for a people;​

11 and they shall not teach each his neighbour, and each his brother, saying, Know thou the Lord, because they shall all know Me from the small one of them unto the great one of them,

12 because I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawlessnesses I will remember no more;' --

13 in the saying `new,' He hath made the first old, and what doth become obsolete and is old [is] nigh disappearing.
​

If you can say that verses 10 and 11 have come to pass in their fullness, then you can say that the Old can be dismissed. Even the author of Hebrews does not conclude that they have come to pass because he does not use the past tense when referring to the Old, but a continuing present tense suggesting that the Old had NOT passed away when he wrote Hebrews, but that it was 'fading.' If the Old is actually done, when, after Hebrews was written, did it finally pass away?

 

[Inkfingers]

If the Old is actually done, when, after Hebrews was written, did it finally pass away?

When the Temple fell in 70AD.

 

[Steve Petersen]

When the Temple fell in 70AD.

The Temple also fell in 586 BC. The presence of a Temple is not necessary for the Old Covenant to remain valid.

 

[Randy777]

God forgave Israel's sins BEFORE Jesus died. Not following what you are arguing with here.

Your not following Jesus here as I quoted Him. He came to do Gods will. It wasn't His plan.
"which I shed for the forgiveness of sin"

So if one states they don't need Jesus they can just ask God to forgiven them. I would reply to such a person " its not for you to choose how to forgive sin"

 

[Steve Petersen]

Your not following Jesus here as I quoted Him. He came to do Gods will. It wasn't His plan.
"which I shed for the forgiveness of sin"

So if one states they don't need Jesus they can just ask God to forgiven them. I would reply to such a person " its not for you to choose how to forgive sin"

Yet God forgave sin in the OT, before Jesus died. Are you saying that after Jesus died, God changed how God forgave sin?

 

[1 John 4:1]

To repeat myself. The "new covenant" isn't new in terms of law. If you read Jer 31 it says that he will write the same law on their hearts: Jeremiah 31:33 this is in contrast to old covenant which says Israel was to write these on their hearts: Deuteronomy 11:18 The word there is "Torah" and if it was a different Torah in Jeremiah 31 he should have stated such.

The new covenant was probably instituted because the old covenant was broken BY Israel (they weren't able to write the law on their hearts) God does the writing in the new covenant. That's the difference.

 

[1 John 4:1]

Yet God forgave sin in the OT, before Jesus died. Are you saying that after Jesus died, God changed how God forgave sin?

Joel 2:32 says "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD Will be delivered; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem There will be those who escape, As the LORD has said, Even among the survivors whom the LORD calls."

This is quoted throughout the new testament. When it is quoted it uses the same word as when Paul "appeals to Caesar" (to get away from the Jewish court) for the word translated "appeal." I point this out because I think it is more than just a belief, actually the word for "believes in" in John 3:16 really means "believes into." I suspect that constitutes a deeper sort of belief than just believing the historical figure of Christ existed and is the messiah. Joel 2:32 has to mean the same thing in the old testament as when it was quoted in the new, if it doesn't the new testament writers were using it improperly. I personally think there is a certain justice or character displayed by Christ and in the Bible that if you "call on" or "appeal to" that for your life you will be saved. (Essentially view Christ's characteristics as your highest ideal. Just my thought.) This doesn't take away from the work that Christ did, it was still necessary I'm just questioning what "belief into Christ" would mean.

 

[Randy777]

Yet God forgave sin in the OT, before Jesus died. Are you saying that after Jesus died, God changed how God forgave sin?

He even left the sins of the nations unpunished who were not under law. So God was just in forgiving those convicted under His law through Jesus. As you know the fault God found was with the hearts of the people not His law.
However with light comes accountability. - Now to all nations The wrath of God has been announced to the ungodly and those who refuse to repent and accept Gods covenant introduced through Jesus and by His blood.
"Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.

Jesus=>If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Someone explained it to me in this way: Christ's death filled the account that EVERYONE draws upon for forgiveness from God whether the lived in the past, present, or future. Time is not a problem for God, only for mortals.

 

[1 John 4:1]

Someone explained it to me in this way: Christ's death filled the account that EVERYONE draws upon for forgiveness from God whether the lived in the past, present, or future. Time is not a problem for God, only for mortals.

That's really interesting. It's hard for the human mind to throw out time when thinking about things but that makes sense.

 

[1 John 4:1]

Joel 2:32 says "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD Will be delivered; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem There will be those who escape, As the LORD has said, Even among the survivors whom the LORD calls."
. . .

So for example Romans 10:13 references this: "for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.""

I should also mention that "name" in Hebrew thought means character or authority. So that has a much different meaning than in English:

Exodus 34
5The LORD descended in the cloud and stood there with him as he called upon the name of the LORD. 6Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; 7who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.”8Moses made haste to bow low toward the earth and worship. 9He said, “If now I have found favor in Your sight, O Lord, I pray, let the Lord go along in our midst, even though the people are so obstinate, and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us as Your own possession.”

 

[Steve Petersen]

So for example Romans 10:13 references this: "for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.""

I should also mention that "name" in Hebrew thought means character or authority. So that has a much different meaning than in English:

Exodus 34
5The LORD descended in the cloud and stood there with him as he called upon the name of the LORD. 6Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; 7who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.”8Moses made haste to bow low toward the earth and worship. 9He said, “If now I have found favor in Your sight, O Lord, I pray, let the Lord go along in our midst, even though the people are so obstinate, and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us as Your own possession.”

Grace (chen) in the middle of the Giving of the Law. Ironic for Christians.

Also, God forgives Israel based on the MERIT of Moses! (Exodus 34:9 - 10.)

 

[1 John 4:1]

Also, God forgives Israel based on the MERIT of Moses! (Exodus 34:9 - 10.)

Moses seems to prefigure Christ here except that he doesn't need to die for their forgiveness.

 

[Inkfingers]

The Temple also fell in 586 BC. The presence of a Temple is not necessary for the Old Covenant to remain valid.

The previous destruction was before the coming of the new covenant.