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Featured Why did Jesus have to die?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Inkfingers, May 17, 2018.

  1. Randy777

    Randy777 Well-Known Member

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    Two different conditions redeeming those cursed by the law via disobedience and redeeming those not under law as in the pagans or gentiles.
    The law given through angels to Moses was binding. Satan accused them before God. God found a way to fulfill the law rather then the people to perish. But as with the covenant it had conditions. Meaning faith in Jesus and a heart willingness to reject wrong and choose the right (repentance)

    hen one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, “You know nothing at all! 50You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”

    51He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, 52and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one. 53So from that day on they plotted to take his life.
     
  2. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    You are wandering from the central theme. Maybe you are thinking about how Jesus became a curse for us.

    We have to understands that the situation belongs to God and it is God who decides what makes it work.

    The process that makes things work in God's plan is illustrated best in Judaism. When something goes wrong, what fixes it is when another creature lays down it's life.

    Now, does it really work? If it doesn't work, then why is it done?

    The Bible tells us that it doesn't work, at least the way Judaism says it does:

    Hebrews 10
    1For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. 2Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? 3But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. 4For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

    As to why it is done, Christianity explains:

    Romans 3
    1Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

    Many of the rituals of the Old Covenant do not have moral functions. Israel was to perform them as oracles, prophecies about God's plan, so that humanity would know God would fix things, and be a record so that when salvation came, it would recognise God's work.

    One of the categories of laws that was given was the one teaching how sacrifices were to be made. We will see how God's plan to save the world works when we look at different parts of it, first as instructed in the Old Covenant and then it's operation in the New.

    Sacrifices were to be offered only in the Tabernacle. That is why the Land is very important for Judaism. Without the Land, Judaism is incomplete. When Joseph and Mary had to offer sacrifice, they had to travel to the Temple.

    Leviticus 17
    2 “Speak to Aaron and his sons and to all the people of Israel and say to them, This is the thing that the LORD has commanded. 3 If any one of the house of Israel kills an ox or a lamb or a goat in the camp, or kills it outside the camp, 4 and does not bring it to the entrance of the tent of meeting to offer it as a gift to the LORD in front of the tabernacle of the LORD, bloodguilt shall be imputed to that man. He has shed blood, and that man shall be cut off from among his people.

    The revelation to the world was that sacrifice would take away sin when it was made in the Temple. Please remember, this was a type, a foreshadow of a future event.

    The operation of this salvation is seen when a believer who is IN Christ, the real Promised Land, makes a sacrifice, picks up his cross.

    When Adam was in the Garden, a place where heaven and earth meets, all he did to subdue creation was effective, because he was in union with God, as only the pure can see God.

    When he came to know good and evil, he was no longer sinless, so humanity, the Garden, was defiled.

    To continue with His plan, God must create a new humanity, one in which man, even if he knew good from evil but could not be perfect in following his spirit, this man could still act in repairing humanity, till it COULD complete creation. This new Man God sent in Christ, the real Promised Land, the true Holy City, the Rest.

    Hebrews 11
    13All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

    There was a possibility at certain times in the narrative, when Israel could have theoretically been Abraham's seed. See this interesting verse:

    John 11
    50You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish."

    The High Priest assumed responsibility for all of Israel at a particular time of the year, on the Day of Atonement. His blood, death, had a special significance:

    Zechariah 3
    9“I will remove the sin of this land in a single day”.

    By dying on the Cross Christ built a New Man, a new Humanity, of which He Himself was the first fruit. By being in Him, we can be unblemished offerings, so that when we pick up a cross, it is an effective sacrifice, an act that really takes away sin, creates treasure in Heaven. For the sake of contemplation, imagine that being in Christ contributes in some way in near and dear ones coming closer to God. God is acting through us…

    We are becoming the covenantal faithfulness of God, dikaiosune theou.

    2 Corinthians 5
    21For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ.

    That's why Christ died.
     
  3. Colter

    Colter Member

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    Why did he have to live, come down from on high and live the life of one of his own created beings?

    It was the will of the Father that our creator Son live the full life of man, death or translation is the final requirement for man. Its wasn't an atonement for sin, that's a speculation by the Pagan world that came after the cross.

    Jesus voluntarily went to the cross as a shared experience with man. It was an act of Love.
     
  4. 1 John 4:1

    1 John 4:1 Member

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    Here's the solution I've come up with. If you read Job and how Satan makes an accusation against Job (that he doesn't have the right heart and is obeying God because God rewards him) you see that Satan's accusation was spiritual but was played out in the physical world (which is the horrendous suffering that Job endures to prove that he does have the right heart)

    Indeed Satan makes a similar accusation of God in the garden of Eden: "4 The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die! 5“For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” (Gen 5 NASB) Essentially saying God is not honest, and wants to hide good and evil from Adam and Eve implying God isn't righteous and/or doesn't care about Adam and Eve. God proves Satan's spiritual accusation wrong in the physical world just like Job proved Satan's accusation wrong. Christ taking on the burden of good and evil by coming into the world and having God withdraw his protection from Christ shows: 1 God cares about us 2 God is righteous (puts others first) 3 God accepts responsibility for the creation of good and evil

    Essentially this nullifies the covenant Adam and Eve made with Satan in the garden because it shows it was built on false premises. Likewise, if you sign a contract but it can be shown that the contract was misrepresented to you or based on lies then you are no longer morally bound by that contract.
     
  5. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    au contraire! -- we can only find this theology hinted at in the OT! (eg: 1 Corinthians 2:6-8).

    This is the major shift for us in the New Testament times (John 4:23, John 5:39-40 - all prophets speak of/about/for The Holy Spirit, but Jesus spoke as The Holy Spirit, saying "if you shall drink of the water I give to you, it shall become within you a fountain of life", and "my flesh is real meat and my blood is real drink, which if you eat of, you shall have eternal life and I will raise you up at the last day"; Hebrews 3:3 - He is the builder of the house, and though it was built, the ones in charge of it did not pay the dues - Matthew 21:34-37; Matthew 12:29 - the war for domain over The Kingdom of God is complex (Ephesians 6:12, 1 Corinthians 6:3), bound by scriptural precedents (1 Corinthians 14:32), fought by those enlightened/contrite/obedient to God vs those blinded by false beliefs and enslaved by sin, that violently extinguish the ones who bring righteous indignation in their testimony of truth - Matthew 23:29-35).

    I see I've drawn a broad picture! .. so I should bring that back into focus with 2 Corinthians 3, which does reveal a deep knowledge of the topic, while also being somewhat concealed by other layers of meaning to the reader/s. If I just underline a few words, it could help it to shine through:

    not that we are competent in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our competence is from God. 6 He also made us competent as servants of a new covenant—not of the letter, but of the Ruach. For the letter kills, but the Ruach gives life.

    7 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that Bnei-Yisrael could not look intently upon Moses’ face because of its glory—although it was passing away— 8 how will the ministry of the Ruach not be even more glorious? 9 For if there is glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness overflows even more in glory. 10 For even what was glorious is not glorious in comparison to the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if what is passing away is glorious, much more what remains is glorious.

    12 Therefore, having such a hope, we act with great boldness. 13 We are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face in order for Bnei-Yisrael not to look intently upon the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were hardened. For up to this very day the same veil remains unlifted at the reading of the ancient covenant, since in Messiah it is passing away. 15 But to this day, whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart. 16 But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit and where the Ruach Adonai is, there is freedom. 18 But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory—just as from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
     
  6. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

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    This is all theological interpretation by CHRISTIANS. I did say 'one hint.' Perhaps I should have been clearer. Find ANY OT verse in which God makes this theology known, quoting you:

    Scripture says that we can come back into life too (1 John 3:14), that shows the wages of sin is a spiritual death - cut off from the life of Christ (John 1:4, John 15:9-11, 1 John 1:5-7)​
     
  7. 1 John 4:1

    1 John 4:1 Member

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    When did the Jewish apostles or Christ state they had switched religions? The word for Christ is the equivalent of the Hebrew word for "messiah."

    "For example, consider the word "Christ." This word comes from "christos" the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew term "messiah." Both words literally mean "Anointed One."" Is Christ Jewish?

    I know you probably don't mean this literally just having some fun :)
     
  8. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    They never said they did that.
     
  9. 1 John 4:1

    1 John 4:1 Member

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    Yeah I'm just messing with you a little :) I like to point out the majority scholarly opinion by both Jews and Christians is that Christianity started out as a sect of Judaism.
     
  10. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    @Steve Petersen , I looked at my post with new eyes after I had submitted it -- and I do apologise if you weren't expecting to do so much work in digestion. (I seem to have assessed you to be at that level of existing knowledge through our communications). Let me see what The Lord provides for you.

    There is of course Jesus' own expectation in John 3:10 that "a teacher of Israel should be understanding these things", though I do understand you may not see the value in that verse because you have fixed your mind to receive only the knowledge from the OT for this purpose.

    I shall not forget the status of your request nor be afraid to report to you when the provision is made, but I will also need to make sure I serve you according to His will.
     
  11. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

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    Once we spiritualize something it becomes putty in our hands. The theology you use did not exist in the time of the OT but was a development of first post-biblical Judaism.

    BTW, what do you think you can report me for?
     
  12. 1 John 4:1

    1 John 4:1 Member

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    It uses a bunch of different metaphors to describe Christ's death. What Does the Bible Say About Jesus Death ? 1 john 2:2 says it means "atonement" which comes from "covering" (if you take it back to the Hebrew) 1 John 2:2 - Apostolic Bible Polyglot Greek-English Interlinear 2434 - Search the Apostolic Bible Polyglot

    The main problem I have with your position is that it never says Christ or God broke any of the laws. In fact it says that Israel broke the laws in Jer 31. Also the "new covenant" isn't new in terms of law. If you read Jer 31 it says that he will write the same law on their hearts and minds: Jeremiah 31:33 this is in contrast to old covenant which says Israel was to write these on their hearts and minds: Deuteronomy 11:18

    The new covenant is there because the old covenant was broken BY Israel (they weren't able to write the law on their hearts and minds) God does the writing in the new covenant. That's the difference.
     
  13. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    I said that I will remember to report to you when the provision is made.

    You would do well to receive what I am saying. It is the spirit that gives life. I am the way, the truth and the life. Where does strife and conflict come from? Is it not from the desire of the self where it opposing the way, namely pride, envy, greed? Scripture is peddled and handled both by spiritual and carnal believers, but the words are dead when there is no spirit in them.

    He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.
    Matthew 12:30
     
  14. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    PS, some of the prophets in OT did know the way "though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death", more shall come your way according to provision.
     
  15. wayfarersoul1978

    wayfarersoul1978 New Member Supporter

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    It is simple Yeshua made this clear in the gospels, he came and died for our sins once and for all. As Yeshua was dying, he said it is finish. Yeshua went down to hell and bring all who damn and free them and for rest of humanity who repent and come to follow Lord yeshua.
     
  16. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    'S'alright. Even John the Forerunner was surprised at how Judaism was developing. ;)
     
  17. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Where and when ?
     
  18. 1 John 4:1

    1 John 4:1 Member

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    John the baptist was certainly mad at some sects of Judaism "brood of vipers!" etc . . . I'm not sure where he was surprised though. It also talks about division among the pharisees: John 9:16 The only place I could think where he might have been surprised is where his disciples come and ask Jesus should we look for another? In Jewish eschatology there were actually two messiahs from my understanding . . . so this may not have been him being confused or surprised about Jesus but wondering if Jesus was the only messiah depending on the translation: Matthew 11:3 to ask him, "Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?"
     
  19. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    Hi Raz, thanks for adding this. I guess the main point of my question is that because Jesus was cut off before His time was full (Daniel 9:26), that means that someone demanded His life be cut short.

    If you are supposing that people could not have fellowship with God before the crucifixion, I would not agree. Scripture shows that a lot of people did have fellowship with God before the crucifixion.
     
  20. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    they did because of faith through animal sacrifices....it's actually a very beautiful story but to really understand you need to go back to the OT teaching of sacrifices and priests and such in fact, Heb. tells us that Christ is our High Priest.
     
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