Why did Jesus have to die?

[Steve Petersen]

I've been thinking on this recently and came up with the following (which I do not know if others have said before me).

If God wanted to break the Covenant of Genesis 12 and Genesis 15:9-18, to bring in the new Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-34, he had to pay the price of breaking a covenant and die (as it says, about the price of breaking a covenant, in Jeremiah 34:18-20).

Jesus's death is God paying that price.

Any (polite ) thoughts on this?

So God killed himself to satisfy a rule that He created?

 

[Neogaia777]

So God killed himself to satisfy a rule that He created?

Yep...

And what are we supposed to "take from that"...? (Is the big question, I guess)...?

It's a "mystery"... Perhaps the greatest mystery of all time maybe...

God Bless!

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

Christ's death was the fulfillment and conclusion of the sacrificial system of the mosaic law. hence He being called "the lamb of God".

book of Hebrews...

 

[Inkfingers]

As another poster said, Jesus fulfilled the covenant/law

And I'm wondering if he fulfilled it by paying the price for ending it (death) in order to bring in the new covenant (which we only get into if we die, spiritually, and are made into a new being in him).

 

[razzelflabben]

And I'm wondering if he fulfilled it by paying the price for ending it (death) in order to bring in the new covenant (which we only get into if we die, spiritually, and are made into a new being in him).

He fulfilled it by being the sacrificial Lamb that died in our place.

 

[Steve Petersen]

He fulfilled it by being the sacrificial Lamb that died in our place.

Why did he have to die in our place? Who made that rule?

 

[Neogaia777]

Why did he have to die in our place? Who made that rule?

He/they did... (God the Father and God the Son)...

I think God the Son knew about that, and that he "might have to do it" all along (that the Father told him he might have to, or would maybe have to, or he (God the Son) just knew about it all along) but perhaps, "perhaps" maybe wasn't sure, for sure...? For/and he tried every way around it, (while laying down out prophecy about it in the OT) Just in case he had to do it...

Which of course he did eventually have to... But I don't think he actually decided to do it or go through with it, until he had fully tried and exhausted "everything else" first...

Maybe, just a theory...

God Bless!

 

[razzelflabben]

Why did he have to die in our place? Who made that rule?

It is the natural law of a HOly God trying to have a relationship with an unholy people.

 

[Brotherly Spirit]

Why did he have to die in our place? Who made that rule?

The consequences of sin is death, as we're lead in the flesh; God is merciful through Jesus who was crucified in the flesh but was resurrected in the spirit. Only he as the Son has fulfilled the will of the Father, it is by Jesus we have forgiveness of our sins. (Romans 6:23, Matthew 9:13)

 

[Galilee63]

Our Lord Jesus Christ in His own Free Will descended from Heaven to Earth (Jesus was with God from the beginning and present in the laying of the Foundations of the Earth) and indeed many of God The Most Highs Priests and Prophets saw our Lord Jesus Christ in Holy Visions and appearing in front of them during the writings of The Old Testament when God our Heavenly Father appeared to Moses and spoke to Holy Ezra and appointed Aaron as His one of His primary Priests among others.

Our Lord Jesus Christ chose to descend from Heaven to Earth and chose to bring His Mercy of which in our Lord Jesus Christs Holy Divine Will we have the "Opportunity" to receive through His Holy Sacred Wounds and Holy Precious Blood.

Our Lord Jesus Christs Holy Precious Blood is contained within His Holy Divine Eucharist and Precious Holy Blood in His Holy Chalice given out from Him through His Priests in His Holy Communion and in Holy Confession when our Lord Jesus places His Holy Divine Two Rays on a heart/Soul of whih contain His Precious Holy Heavenly Blood to absolve sins off Souls in repentance of sins made in genuine remorse to Him.

Our Lord Jesus Christ is the New Covenant - the old Covenant was the sacrificing of animals and offering God The Most High at His Holy Divine Request of His People, unblemished pure animals and their Blood. With The New Covenant, our Lord Jesus Christ, it is

"The Precious Holy Sacred Wounds and Precious Holy Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ in which through receiving our Lord Jesus Christ in His Precious Holy Blood - His Holy Divine Gift given out in His Holy Divine Will through repentance of sins made to Him, we can be saved.

Indeed our Lord Jesus Christ has said this to thousands of His Holy Saints mentioned in Gods Holy Word, from the beginning, His Nuns/Sisters/Saints that it is through His Holy Sacred Wounds and Precious Holy Blood given out to Souls through repentance of sins made to Him in genuine remorse that Souls can be saved.

"I am hidden by the Priests and when a soul approaches My Fount of Mercy, the misery of the soul is met with the God of Mercy"

Our Lord Jesus Christ as Christians say paid the price for our sins - on conditions - and there are conditions make no mistake - that we repent our sins to our Lord Jesus Christ in remorse from hearts open in trust to Him in order to be forgiven sins and receive His Mercy now and at the hour of death.

Indeed many people have been in comas and or unconscious and seen that it is through The Holy Divine Blood of Christ that we can be given the opportunity to receive our Lord Jesus Christs Mercy through repentance of sins made to Him in genuine heartfelt remorse while here on earth. After this life, it is too late.

We as human beings created by God The Most High were born through Blood and Water.

God asked His Priests and Prophets in His Holy Divine Church to offer up Blood of animals to Him in His Old Covenant. The New Holy Covenant is our Lord Jesus Christ and His Precious Holy Sacred Wounds in Holy Veneration and His Precious Holy Divine Heavenly Blood.

All the best

 

[JoeP222w]

I've been thinking on this recently and came up with the following (which I do not know if others have said before me).

If God wanted to break the Covenant of Genesis 12 and Genesis 15:9-18, to bring in the new Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-34, he had to pay the price of breaking a covenant and die (as it says, about the price of breaking a covenant, in Jeremiah 34:18-20).

Jesus's death is God paying that price.

Any (polite ) thoughts on this?

To start with, Jesus did not have to die at all. God is not obliged to man.

However, out of His immeasurable grace, mercy and love, Jesus chose to lay down His life.

Jesus did not break any of the Old Testament covenant(s). He perfectly fulfilled them.

 

[Serving Zion]

So God killed himself to satisfy a rule that He created?

Why did he have to die in our place? Who made that rule?

Hi there Steve. It is possible to view the scriptures in absence of Penalty Substitutionary Atonement doctrine. Personally, I view scripture that way and it reconciles some pretty deep logical pitfalls (eg: 1 Corinthians 13:5 vs 1 John 4:8b).

Have a think about the pitch of this little gospel tract:

 

[Micah888]

If God wanted to break the Covenant of Genesis 12 and Genesis 15:9-18, to bring in the new Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-34, he had to pay the price of breaking a covenant and die (as it says, about the price of breaking a covenant, in Jeremiah 34:18-20).

Sorry, but you have arrived at an incorrect conclusion.

God was not breaking any covenants, since it is impossible for God to do that. The Bible is perfectly clear that it is Israel who failed to adhere to its part of the Old Covenant.

But even if they had managed to do so, God had already designed the New Covenant and the sacrifice of Christ before the foundation of the world.

To answer the title question, Jesus had to die because there was no other way that the sin debt of all humanity could be paid. Christ was the Lamb of God who took away the sin of the world.

 

[Micah888]

It is possible to view the scriptures in absence of Penalty Substitutionary Atonement doctrine.

Not really. The penalty for sin had to be paid in order to satisfy both the justice of God, as well as His righteousness and holiness.

Either every human being could go to Hell (the Lake of Fire) and be eternally separated from God, or a Divine Substitute had to be provided to pay the penalty for the sins of the whole world, and atone for them.

God -- in His infinite grace and mercy -- sent His only begotten and beloved Son to die in our stead. So how do you arrive at "absence of Penal Substitutionary Atonement"?

 

[GodsGrace101]

And yet he brought in a new covenant.

And that isn't God going back on his word, as he said the covenant is eternal unless one side pays with death....then he paid with death to bring in the new covenant.

Breaking his word would be bringing in a new covenant without the price being paid.

No covenant was ever broken.
Tell me which one was...

Where did you hear this?
It's incorrect.

2 Timothy 2:13 is what this means...
Which is "If we are faithless, He remains faithful; for He cannot deny Himself."
NASB

The above is used incorrectly by those who would like to prove OSAS in that even if we lose our faith, God will remain faithful for He cannot deny Himself. Actually, it means what is stated above by me...God will remain faithful to His covenants because He is not a liar and will always accomplish what He sets out to accomplish.

The only covenants that did not work out well were the conditional covenants...Edenic, Mosaic. These are the covenants that depended on man to function.

The unconditional covenants which did not require the cooperation of mean always functioned because God does not fail.

In any case, you're not speaking about the Abrahamic Covenant....no way that could be abolished! The Abrahamic Covenant was unconditional and was sealed with a ceremony in which only God took part...see Genesis 15:9-17

You would, in any case, be speaking about the Mosaic Covenant, but your conclusion is still wrong for the above reasons. Israel failed, not God!

Forget about it!

 

[GodsGrace101]

And yet he brought in a new covenant.

And that isn't God going back on his word, as he said the covenant is eternal unless one side pays with death....then he paid with death to bring in the new covenant.

Breaking his word would be bringing in a new covenant without the price being paid.

LOL
Jesus paid the price for OUR failings, NOT HIS!!

God doesn't fail !

 

[GodsGrace101]

He hasn't violated it.

He said that it will not be broken without the death of the breaker, broke it (to make the new covenant), and died (on the cross). That is why Jesus's blood is called the New Covenant in Luke 22:20.

And the word translated as violate is the word for desecrate.

Here we go with meanings of words:

If we VIOLATE a law,
we BREAK a law..

It's the same thing.
God niether VIOLATED NOR BROKE any of His covenants.
WE have broken them.

 

[Inkfingers]

The Bible is perfectly clear that it is Israel who failed to adhere to its part of the Old Covenant.

Yup, and God wanted to end the Covenant and bring in a new one.

To do that it meant death for one party, so God chose for it to be His, on the cross, as that is the price of a broken Covenant.

 

[Inkfingers]

No covenant was ever broken.
Tell me which one was...

Where did you hear this?
It's incorrect.

The old covenant was made between God and Abraham - Genesis 12
The price of breaking that covenant was death - Genesis 15:9-18 Jeremiah 34:18-20
God wanted to bring in a new covenant - Jeremiah 31:31-34
Because the old covenant was flawed - Hebrews 8:7
Because it did not offer salvation - Romans 3:20
But to do that God would have to die, so the price God paid was death - Luke 22:20
That is how we are bought with His blood - 1 Corinthians 6:20
He paid that price because of our sins - Romans 4:25
Because we, in our sin, are unable to keep the first covenant - Romans 8:7
And yet despite that God still wanted to offer a way of salvation - John 3:16
So he took the punishment for our sinful inability to keep the first covenant which he then chose to break (as it was unconditional for mankind) and replaced it with a new better one.

 

[GodsGrace101]

The old covenant was made between God and Abraham - Genesis 12
The price of breaking that covenant was death - Genesis 15:9-18 Jeremiah 34:18-20
God wanted to bring in a new covenant - Jeremiah 31:31-34
Because the old covenant was flawed - Hebrews 8:7
But to do that God would have to die, so the price God paid was death - Luke 22:20
That is how we are bought with His blood - 1 Corinthians 6:20
He paid that price because of our sins - Romans 4:25
Because we, in our sin, are unable to keep the first covenant - Romans 8:7
And yet despite that God still wanted to offer a way of salvation - John 3:16

Inkyfingers,
You've posted some strange stuff here.

First of all, when you speak about the "Old Covenant" anyone knowing about the Covenants will understand that you're speaking about the Mosaic Covenant and NOT the Abrahamic Covenant.

That covenant was an unconditional Covenant. Abraham or man had nothing to do with it. It was totally on God.

God wanted to change the Mosaic Covenant and write the laws on man's heart, and not on stone. You've correctly posted Jeremiah 31:33.

What was flawed about the Mosaic Covenant?
God made a mistake??

What does Luke 22:20 mean to you??
What is different about the New Covenant?
Just because Jesus mentions the blood does not mean He had to die because HE broke the covenant. I could hardly type this...

Why were we unable to keep the "first" covenant?
Why could we keep this new covenant?

Please think the answers through.