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Featured Why did Jesus have to die?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Inkfingers, May 17, 2018.

  1. Inkfingers

    Inkfingers Somebody's heretic Supporter

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    I've been thinking on this recently and came up with the following (which I do not know if others have said before me).

    If God wanted to break the Covenant of Genesis 12 and Genesis 15:9-18, to bring in the new Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-34, he had to pay the price of breaking a covenant and die (as it says, about the price of breaking a covenant, in Jeremiah 34:18-20).

    Jesus's death is God paying that price.

    Any (polite ;) ) thoughts on this?
     
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  2. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    It just doesn't sound right the way you put it, to put it 'politely'.

    Yahweh didn't break His Word, ever. He cannot.
     
  3. Inkfingers

    Inkfingers Somebody's heretic Supporter

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    And yet he brought in a new covenant.

    And that isn't God going back on his word, as he said the covenant is eternal unless one side pays with death....then he paid with death to bring in the new covenant.

    Breaking his word would be bringing in a new covenant without the price being paid.
     
  4. TheBibleIsTruth

    TheBibleIsTruth Well-Known Member

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    "But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second." (Hebrews 8:6-7)

    Jesus Christ IS the New Covenant.
     
  5. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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  6. Inkfingers

    Inkfingers Somebody's heretic Supporter

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    He hasn't violated it.

    He said that it will not be broken without the death of the breaker, broke it (to make the new covenant), and died (on the cross). That is why Jesus's blood is called the New Covenant in Luke 22:20.

    And the word translated as violate is the word for desecrate.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2018
  7. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    I don't know the religion behind your struggle. Sorry.
     
  8. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    He didn't break or violate a/the covenant, in fact he fulfilled it, (obeyed it, lived up to it) and was the only who can, ever will, or could... and "that" gave him the authority to institute a new one...

    And this may or not help with the rest, as far as ousting Satan from heaven or the heavenly realm(s)...

    Was or is YHWH, or the God that interacted with men in the OT 100% completely omniscient...?

    As for the rest, there are "lots" of reasons why Jesus or God had to die and be resurrected, and that is for us to ponder eternally maybe...

    Pay for our sins, absolve us of our sins, quench God the Father's wrath and anger, (which was really his own) anyway, and blood was required for "all" these things (to institute a new covenant, oust Satan from heaven, ect...)

    Along with much more...

    God Bless!
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2018
  9. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Where does it say this again...? (that Jesus did or does or will do this) (break the covenant) (and not the people)...?
     
  10. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    I just want to carefully suggest that you and I are holding incompatible base assumptions about the mechanism of atonement, and as such, the whole interpretation of scripture is subsequently affected so that we will ultimately find that we are seeing different meanings in the same texts, according to our prejudicial lens.

    For starters, God did not want to break a covenant (Matthew 23:37-39), and His covenant still stands (Romans 2:28-29 and Romans 9:8 - this was the case even before the crucifixion: Matthew 8:10-11, John 8:39-44).

    There is a diverse range of views in Christianity, loosely grouped into denominations, and the majority are wrong. Truth is consistent, you see, and if we all have the spirit of truth, we will be finding agreement. Nevertheless, there is a consistency in the bible, and this is what distinguishes the ones who love the truth from those who end up having irreconcilable errors.

    The main purpose of the crucifixion is found in Luke 12:49, Mark 3:27, Revelation 1:8.
     
  11. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    There actually "one covenant"... One is the first part, (not for (us anyway) to (try to) (in our own strength or ability) completely "obey and keep", but to point out our disobedience and failing(s) (that we alone can't change) and the other, the second part, after it, (the solution to that) (the first) but they are really "one whole covenant"...

    We just completely missed the point (and purpose) of the first one for a very long time... Which is to lead us to and point (us) to the second...

    We die (died to) the first covenant in disobedience, and due to our disobedience, and in dishonor, but, Christ died to it in obedience, and in honor, which gave the right to create and institute a new covenant, which is just a continuation of the old covenant...

    God Bless!
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2018
  12. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    It was just today actually that Hebrews 3:3 came to light! (Matthew 10:19). There is also Hebrews 10:3-4 as we all know ;)

    I always cringe that a poor, fluffy animal should have to be [unspeakably treated] on account of our sins. I wonder what words we could escape if it were to speak! Praise God for He is good! He even saves our poor little friends!!

     
  13. Acts2:38

    Acts2:38 Well-Known Member

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    Hebrews 10 does a good job explaining why.

    Also, Jesus had to die because that is what the gospel is. Read 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Death burial and resurrection.
     
  14. God bless Joshua

    God bless Joshua Well-Known Member

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    Jesus paid our price with His Life, freed us from slavery of sins.
     
  15. Norbert L

    Norbert L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I've previously heard a similar line of reasoning to "He said that it will not be broken without the death of the breaker, broke it, and died (on the cross)."

    They used Romans 7:1-2 to make the point that Jesus death released them from the old covenant, makes it null and void and begins a new covenant by invoking Hebrews 9:17.

    How would you respond to this?
     
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  16. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    I would say that it most certainly doesn't say that, nor does it even (not even remotely close) mean that at all... Those words are not the words of or in the Bible, and I don't even see how you can get "that" from those scriptures or any scriptures for that matter...

    Not that he broke it, as in he (Christ) didn't fulfill it or obey it perfectly, or broke or violated it that way... But "broke it" in the fact that he died to "break it's (O.C.) power" to cause sin or make sin worse or abound anymore, (the curse of the law) and that he who kept it had to die to break it, as in break it prior power before that, or the curse of the law...

    If the law or old covenant is kept in it's proper place, and we have the right perspective on it (taught in the NT), it is not bad or evil, but good... But if we do not, it is...

    God Bless!
     
  17. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Jesus in keeping the law, and dying in obedience to it (which none of us could or can do) "broke" the prior power that it (the Law, or O.C.) had to bring a curse (of sin) upon us, by causing us to see it in the right light and view or perspective...

    Brought about by the N.C. and NT teachings...

    It was not nullified entirely, but was changed...

    God Bless!
     
  18. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Instead of it (the Law) (O.C) causing us all to judge and condemn others for their sin (and sin) (and not see our own sin) (in that) (hence the curse) it now clearly shows us all, and points out all of our(s) sin(s) and points to the need of a new way, or new solution to that problem, or the N.C. with Christ, taught in the teachings of the NT...

    That's what changed and has changed about it...

    And Jesus had to die for that, and blood of one who was perfect, and perfectly kept it's old ways, was required to do that (among many other things)...

    God Bless!
     
  19. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    scripture says that He brought the new covenant about because it was a better covenant...easier for man to follow so to speak.
     
  20. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    As another poster said, Jesus fulfilled the covenant/law
     
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