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Why did God not start humans by making us like Jesus?

Discussion in 'The Kitchen Sink' started by com7fy8, Sep 14, 2021.

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  1. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    @Kylie :)
     
  2. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    My opinion > He started from "the same lump" (Romans 9:21) to make all humans. So, from the same basic stuff there are humans becoming "worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived" (2 Timothy 3:13), while others are growing in Jesus and how He has people loving.

    So, ones started with their basic human stuff and then got worse, while others have gone the bad way but then changed to be with Jesus. In any case God started them all at the human level, using the human stuff of "the same lump".

    They did not start better, because they did not first come from Jesus, then.

    And I already offered that eternal damnation is a measure for controlling evil.

    And when I said evil people volunteer to be sewer buckets of Satanic stuff like unforgiveness and lusts and worry and other degrading and cruel stuff, I meant volunteering in sort of a sarcastic way. Actually, they are stuck with their nasty stuff and weakness. And this is enforced by their pride which is so intimate with their unforgiveness and other degrading and anti-love things, so people are in denial and very stubbornly refusing to trust Jesus to free and correct them of their deep trouble.

    But Jesus does call to "all" >

    "'Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:28-29)

    And, actually, they are not in danger of damnation; but they are already living in it. They have in themselves stuff which will be in hell; so they are already sampling. And, yes, Jesus died so we do not continue so, plus He calls to "all" to have rest with Him. And this rest is better than what any Star Wars god can give you, I will offer.
     
  3. Kylie

    Kylie Defeater of Illogic

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    You're the one who said the "right way" would be like Jesus. Back in the other thread, you said:

    So you've stated that God created us so we would please him, but that we can't please him the way we are, and that we need to become more like Jesus. So, going off the way you've defined it, why didn't God make us like Jesus?
     
  4. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    He did make Adam like Jesus. Or as much like Jesus as could be done, inasmuch as Jesus is the incarnation of the uncreated Son.
     
  5. Kylie

    Kylie Defeater of Illogic

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    I would have thought that for an omnipotent being, "as close as possible" would mean completely identical in every way.
     
  6. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    1 Colossians tells us that everything that was created, was created through the Son. The Son emerged as the first entity into the created universe, and through Him everything else was created. In a way, Jesus was speaking literally when He said that he is the "gate." From the mind of the Father into the created universe, everything went through the Son.
     
  7. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    First, regarding the meaning of "omnipotent." The term "omnipotent" was already in use by the Romans to describe the legal authority of the emperor. The emperor was called the omnipotens, to mean that all governmental authority flowed from him. His generals, governors, the Senators, et cetera had no power of their own. Whatever power they had flowed to them from the omnipotens, the emperor.

    When the early Church fathers began calling God the omnipotens, that's what they meant, that all authority flows from him (as described by Paul in Romans 13).

    Now, to be "like Jesus," completely identical in every way would, in fact, invoke the mathematical concept of identity. To be completely identical, each of us would have to be literally Jesus...we would have to be literally One Substance with the Father. But we are not One Substance with the Father, we are created beings.

    But the incarnate Jesus had nothing more going for Him as a material being, a man, than Adam had.
     
  8. Kylie

    Kylie Defeater of Illogic

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    And I might agree with you if I didn't see that Christians were just as likely to be mean and nasty people as anyone else.

    So? They still came from God.

    A measure that God should be able to avoid taking.

    They are still, according to your argument, doing a very important job.

    You do realise that this claim is entirely unconvincing to anyone who isn't already a believer, right?
     
  9. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    Oh? What makes you think so?
     
  10. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Partly because humans did not start from Jesus. They started as perfectly created creatures, but they were not made from what has the character of Christ. So, they were perfect in form, but not in Christ's character which is incapable of evil.

    And I think we can see how humans have the ability of character to become "worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived" > 2 Timothy 3:13. It looks this way to me, anyway. But also, if we humans can change to worse, God is able to change us to become like Jesus, however much God knows this is possible.

    And, going by Romans 9:21, I see how God has chosen to have certain humans be vessels for containing the evil things of "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" > and I will offer, that this will not result in people becoming like Jesus.

    "But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

    Anyone who is joined to Jesus can be effected by how Jesus is.

    So, it has been God's plan, then, to have humans for different purposes . . . not for all to be like Jesus.
     
  11. Kylie

    Kylie Defeater of Illogic

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    They had no safety net.

    Besides, a safety net doesn't make it okay. It's still a bad idea to let your kids play on the roof even if you've got a safety net to catch them if they fall.
     
  12. Kylie

    Kylie Defeater of Illogic

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    No, they didn't start from Jesus, they started from God. That should be at least as good as starting from Jesus, right?

    If God is able to change us that way, why doesn't he do it? Surely it's better for all concerned, right?

    So God punishes people for being what he wanted them to be? Does that seem fair to you?
     
  13. Joy

    Joy Well-Known Member Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    MOD HAT ON

    After Staff Review

    This Thread
    is Now
    Permanently Closed

    RV:
    The Kitchen Sink Forum Statement of Purpose

    The Kitchen Sink forum is a place for all members to discuss and debate those topics that do not really fit in the other Discussion & Debate forums. These topics would include any news item that may not be current, but is still relevant as a topic for debate; or any other topics (within the boundaries of the sitewide rules) that don't have a relevant link to use as a source of reference, or the link may be considered by some to be unreputable. If the topics would clearly fit in the Political, News & Current Events, Ethics & Morality, Conspiracy Theories, etc. forums, they would need to be started in their appropriate forums. No topics about the theology of any religion are allowed in this forum. Theological topics must be started in their appropriate forums.

    MOD HAT OFF
     
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