Why did God make it so that the sins of one could negatively impact another?

[BNR32FAN]

You need to experience what it is talking about to understand it.

So now your saying I’m not born again?

 

[Dave L]

So now your saying I’m not born again?

Many born again are temporarily confused until God renews their minds. I started out as removed from the truth as you can get. But in time I am the complete opposite from where I began.

 

[BNR32FAN]

God works in us to will and to do of his good pleasure using means. It's all part of salvation.

Only if we are willing to cooperate. Romans 2 makes this very clear.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-5‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

Many born again are temporarily confused until God renews their minds. I started out as removed from the truth as you can get. But in time I am the complete opposite from where I began.

Ok here’s the big problem with Calvin’s theology. It makes God’s judgement upon unbelievers unjust. The doctrine of total depravity says that man cannot repent and believe unless God enables him. The doctrine of unconditional grace says that man cannot even influence God’s decision to grant him grace. So man is completely incapable of meeting God’s expectations and he is completely incapable of gaining favor with God in order to receive grace to enable him to repent and believe. This makes God’s expectations of unbelievers to repent and believe completely impossible for them to accomplish by any means. God’s judgement and punishment CANNOT be just if the person is incapable of meeting His expectations.

This scenario would be as if God were to say to man in order to receive eternal life you must go to Alpha Centauri and anyone who doesn’t go to Alpha Centauri will burn in the lake of fire for all eternity. Then God provides a spaceship named Grace that is large enough to carry everyone in the world but only allows 1/3 of the people to enter and tells the rest you better figure out how to get there on your own or your going to burn for all eternity. And there’s no difference between the 1/3 of the people who were allowed to enter than the other 2/3 who were not allowed. They’re not any better than them. They’re not any more deserving of receiving grace. The people who are left behind will face an unjust punishment because they have no way possible to meet God’s expectations. This makes God put to be an unjust and downright cruel being. That’s not my God. My God is kind and patient towards ALL MEN wanting ALL to repent and be saved and that none should perish. Unfortunately this won’t happen because not all men are willing to cooperate and answer His calling. Therefore these are justly condemning themselves to the punishment for all eternity and God is not responsible for the choice they have made for themselves.

 

[Dave L]

Ok here’s the big problem with Calvin’s theology. It makes God’s judgement upon unbelievers unjust. The doctrine of total depravity says that man cannot repent and believe unless God enables him. The doctrine of unconditional grace says that man cannot even influence God’s decision to grant him grace. So man is completely incapable of meeting God’s expectations and he is completely incapable of gaining favor with God in order to receive grace to enable him to repent and believe. This makes God’s expectations of unbelievers to repent and believe completely impossible for them to accomplish by any means. God’s judgement and punishment CANNOT be just if the person is incapable of meeting His expectations.

This scenario would be as if God were to say to man in order to receive eternal life you must go to Alpha Centauri and anyone who doesn’t go to Alpha Centauri will burn in the lake of fire for all eternity. Then God provides a spaceship named Grace that is large enough to carry everyone in the world but only allows 1/3 of the people to enter and tells the rest you better figure out how to get there on your own or your going to burn for all eternity. And there’s no difference between the 1/3 of the people who were allowed to enter than the other 2/3 who were not allowed. They’re not any better than them. They’re not any more deserving of receiving grace. The people who are left behind will face an unjust punishment because they have no way possible to meet God’s expectations. This makes God put to be an unjust and downright cruel being. That’s not my God. My God is kind and patient towards ALL MEN wanting ALL to repent and be saved and that none should perish. Unfortunately this won’t happen because not all men are willing to cooperate and answer His calling. Therefore these are justly condemning themselves to the punishment for all eternity and God is not responsible for the choice they have made for themselves.

What is Calvin was right about God? How many hate him, worshiping idols instead? How can I trust anything you say when I believe Calvin, Luther, and the rest of the Reformers were right? How can I invest more than a paragraph's worth of time on your opinions? Save your efforts.

 

[Dave L]

Only if we are willing to cooperate. Romans 2 makes this very clear.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-5‬ ‭NASB‬‬

You've not been chastized yet?

 

[BNR32FAN]

What is Calvin was right about God? How many hate him, worshiping idols instead? How can I trust anything you say when I believe Calvin, Luther, and the rest of the Reformers were right? How can I invest more than a paragraph's worth of time on your opinions? Save your efforts.

How can you trust what I say over Calvin & the rest of the reformers? By implying some simple common sense. Is it not a FACT that Calvin’s doctrines teach that it is ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE for unbelievers to repent and believe unless God has enabled them? Is it not a FACT that to punish someone for failure to meet IMPOSSIBLE EXPECTATIONS is UNJUST? These are undeniable FACTS.

Just-guided by truth, reason, justice, and fairness:

I’m not asking you to trust me, I’m providing evidence so you can evaluate the matter for yourself. Why should you trust them when every single church established by the apostles reject their theology? Is it because so many others do? Is it just to punish someone for failing to meet impossible expectations? If a soldier put a gun to your child’s head and said you either jump and touch the moon or I’m going to shoot you in the head and your child replies I can’t then BOOM the soldier just shot your child in the head for failing to meet his impossible expectations. Would you say that was just? Of course not. GOD IS JUST. He doesn’t make impossible expectations He made it possible for ALL to be saved. All they have to do is repent and believe and He WILL grant them grace. He will guide them with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Dave L]

How can you trust what I say over Calvin & the rest of the reformers? By implying some simple common sense. Is it not a FACT that Calvin’s doctrines teach that it is ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE for unbelievers to repent and believe unless God has enabled them? Is it not a FACT that to punish someone for failure to meet IMPOSSIBLE EXPECTATIONS is UNJUST? These are undeniable FACTS.

Just-guided by truth, reason, justice, and fairness:

I’m not asking you to trust me, I’m providing evidence so you can evaluate the matter for yourself. Why should you trust them when every single church established by the apostles reject their theology? Is it because so many others do? Is it just to punish someone for failing to meet impossible expectations? If a soldier put a gun to your child’s head and said you either jump and touch the moon or I’m going to shoot you in the head and your child replies I can’t then BOOM the soldier just shot your child in the head for failing to meet his impossible expectations. Would you say that was just? Of course not. GOD IS JUST. He doesn’t make impossible expectations He made it possible for ALL to be saved. All they have to do is repent and believe and He WILL grant them grace. He will guide them with the Holy Spirit.

Do we serve the same, Christ?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Do we serve the same, Christ?

No I don’t think we do because my God is just. My God does not show partiality. My God does not unjustly inflict the most horrible punishment and torment for all eternity upon people who never had any hope or chance for salvation. My God wants all men to repent and be saved and wants none to perish. So no it doesn’t sound like we serve the same God.

 

[Dave L]

No I don’t think we do because my God is just. My God does not show partiality. My God does not unjustly inflict the most horrible punishment and torment upon people who never had any hope or chance for salvation. My God wants all men to repent and be saved and wants none to perish. So no it doesn’t sound like we serve the same God.

This is what I mean. If Calvin and the Reformers were right. Many hate God and worship their own golden calves.

 

[com7fy8]

For an example, consider something terrible like a childhood filled with abuse - the child has not done anything to deserve the abuse and will have to live with the nightmares for the rest of their life.

First of all, that's a terrible evil, but we should understand that no one hates this more than God. God is supremely good and righteous and He hates and punishes all evil.

yes

I think we have to make it very clear from the outset that God does not create, bestow, nor impute moral evil upon the world. He does not create conditions for sin, for sin is from us and the devil.

yes

That child still has the same sin nature as his/her abuser and has consequences & vulnerabilities as a result of their own sin choices. Some consequences are obvious while others are not. The Fallen world is a mess.

I agree how a child has been born in sin, which is true like the predator who was born in sin. But I do not believe the child has made choices which caused the child to be violated > the predator makes the choice to do what is cruel and evil and betraying trust.

What sin choices would the child have made to warrant a childhood of abuse?

The child did not choose it, but he or she might make choices about how to deal with it, while it is happening, plus later in the child's life.

They say every predator has been a victim. But we know not all victims become predators. But I see how certain children get ideas of copy-catting what was done to them. That's a choice ones could make, later.

And my understanding from God's word plus observation, is that the child's character does effect how much the child suffers and if the child later also becomes a predator or not. And the person's character will have a lot to do with if he or she forgives the evil person and has compassion. One can become kind instead of becoming a predator, and instead of just suffering and hating forever.

God can change our character.

So, yes . . . to deal with how you are saying we can effect each other > yes, the predator can reproduce more predators; there are victims who later . . . possibly . . . can get ideas from what was done to them, and then do evil to others. But not all victims go this way. And if an evil person can effect people, like that, then it is true how one human can effect others.

Consider how the predator might not spend much time with a victim, yet might even help the child to also become a predator. So, if someone like that can have such an effect, then surely caring parents and others can have much more time to be with a victim, to help them become loving and caring people > love "hopes all things," we have in 1 Corinthians 13:7.

And so . . . the good news is that with God we can effect people in a good way.

In order to bless others, we can use our own experience to help us understand what others are going through; and our own failures and hard things and nicer experience all can help us to feel for others and pray for them with hope since we know how God has proven Himself in us, to change our nature to be sharing with Him in His love > 1 John 4:17.

So, if you wish, we could talk about if and how it is possible that we could influence a predator. Ones say it can't be done.

 

[BNR32FAN]

This is what I mean. If Calvin and the Reformers were right. Many hate God and worship their own golden calves.

Are you saying that you believe it is possible that God is not just?

 

[Dave L]

Are you saying that you believe it is possible that God is not just?

“Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,” Romans 9:21–23 (KJV 1900)

 

[BNR32FAN]

“Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,” Romans 9:21–23 (KJV 1900)

Amen now we’re getting somewhere. What do the words “endured with much longsuffering” mean? Does that mean they never had a chance for salvation or does it mean that thru God’s foreknowledge He foresaw that they would never repent and decided to make examples of them to others so that His power and His glory may be seen? It means He was patient with them and because of their choice not to repent they ultimately condemned themselves.

Compare this verse with

“The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭NASB‬‬

God is waiting until the full number of Gentiles repent then Jesus’ second coming will happen. Hence He is enduring with much longsuffering giving people time to repent because He has foreseen that more will repent.

 

[Dave L]

Amen now we’re getting somewhere. What do the words “endured with much longsuffering” mean? Does that mean they never had a chance for salvation or does it mean that thru God’s foreknowledge He foresaw that they would never repent and decided to make examples of them to others so that His power and His glory may be seen? It means He was patient with them and because of their choice not to repent they ultimately condemned themselves.

Compare this verse with

“The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭NASB‬‬

God is waiting until the full number of Gentiles repent then Jesus’ second coming will happen. Hence He is enduring with much longsuffering giving people time to repent because He has foreseen that more will repent.

But you imply people choose to make themselves into vessels of honor, not God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

But you imply people choose to make themselves into vessels of honor, not God.

No, God makes us vessels of honor thru our cooperation with His guidance. Why do we receive rewards in heaven for our good works? The works are of God thru the guidance of the Holy Spirit so why do we receive a reward? Because we acted in cooperation with the Holy Spirit otherwise it wouldn’t be a reward it would be another grace, another unmerited favor of God. But our rewards in heaven are not unmerited. Some will receive more than others because they did more good works than others.

 

[Dave L]

No, God makes us vessels of honor thru our cooperation with His guidance. Why do we receive rewards in heaven for our good works? The works are of God thru the guidance of the Holy Spirit so why do we receive a reward? Because we acted in cooperation with the Holy Spirit otherwise it wouldn’t be a reward it would be another grace, another unmerited favor of God. But our rewards in heaven are not unmerited. Some will receive more than others because they did more good works than others.

This is far fetched. Nothing in scripture supports it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

This is far fetched. Nothing in scripture supports it.

Which part exactly?

 

[Dave L]

Which part exactly?

All of it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

All of it.

I knew you would say that.

So we don’t receive rewards in heaven according to our deeds?


“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭16:27‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:12‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“"Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven. "So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving will be in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:1-4‬ ‭NASB‬‬