Why did God create people he knew would end up in hell?

[Skala]

Why did God create people he knew would end up in hell?

Since God has perfect knowledge of "Bob"'s fate, how can it be said that God is giving Bob a genuine chance/offer of salvation?

If God wanted Bob to avoid hellfire, he could have simply opted to not create Bob/allow him to be conceived.

I mean, I'm just a lowly man, and even I can figure that out. How much more can God figure that out?

It seems to me that this "dilemma" is only solved by embracing Open Theism, and the idea that God had no clue what Bob's fate would be.

 

[Hammster]

Well, that was fun.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

lots of people have lots of children, and lots of children leave home in rebellion.

lots of people keep having lots of children. or even just one or two or a few.

lots of people used to keep having children, even when half of them died soon.

Yhvh knew all that has and will and ever will be. His Perfect Wisdom orchestrated everything
for the good, NOT of the worldly,
but
for the good of those who love God, who keep and honor His commandments, living by grace through faith in Yahshua - faith being also a gift, sheer grace, from God.

 

[Hammster]

lots of people have lots of children, and lots of children leave home in rebellion.

lots of people keep having lots of children. or even just one or two or a few.

lots of people used to keep having children, even when half of them died soon.

Yhvh knew all that has and will and ever will be. His Perfect Wisdom orchestrated everything
for the good, NOT of the worldly,
but
for the good of those who love God, who keep and honor His commandments, living by grace through faith in Yahshua - faith being also a gift, sheer grace, from God.

So good people go to heaven.

Gonna be pretty empty.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

I mean, I'm just a lowly man, and even I can figure that out. How much more can God figure that out?

Yup, I think I see the problem right here.

I suggest you find and listen the lectures of Dr. R. C. Sproul regarding the Bibical doctrine of 'election'. It does require some serious listening, attention to detail. Oh, it also requires getting a perspective of the relationship between God and man.

 

[AMR]

It seems to me that this "dilemma" is only solved by embracing Open Theism, and the idea that God had no clue what Bob's fate would be.

Embracing open theism heresy is no solution to this so-called "dilemma" as creates even more dilemmas. If God does not genuinely know ("predicting" our choices because God is super smart as the openist may rejoin, is not "knowing") what his creatures will do until they do so, then the God of Abraham is not as smart as God is today or will be tomorrow. Sounds more like some sort of Survivor God, outwitting, outlasting, and outplaying, his apparently autonomous creatures. Yikes!

See also:

http://cdn.desiringgod.org/website_uploads/documents/books/beyond-the-bounds.pdf

You are also confusing foreknowledge with direct causation. See also:

http://www.christianforums.com/blogs/u244978-e11255/
http://www.christianforums.com/blogs/u244978-e12086/
http://www.christianforums.com/blogs/u244978-e11263/
http://www.christianforums.com/blogs/u244978-e11272/

 

[Mediaeval]

It seems to me that this "dilemma" is only solved by embracing Open Theism, and the idea that God had no clue what Bob's fate would be.

Another solution would be that God uses hell in the hereafter as He uses punishment in this life--as an aid to repentance.

 

[Steeno7]

Why did God create people he knew would end up in hell? Since God has perfect knowledge of "Bob"'s fate, how can it be said that God is giving Bob a genuine chance/offer of salvation?

The choice to refuse the offer was Bobs, not Gods. Foreknowledge is not cause.

If God wanted Bob to avoid hellfire, he could have simply opted to not create Bob/allow him to be conceived.

And what of Bobs offspring and their offspring and their offspring.....?

I mean, I'm just a lowly man, and even I can figure that out. How much more can God figure that out?

What have you figured out oh wise one?

It seems to me that this "dilemma" is only solved by embracing Open Theism, and the idea that God had no clue what Bob's fate would be.

What dilemma?

 

[bling]

This has been asked before.

God knows from the beginning of time who in the future chose of their own free will not to accept His charity, because that is the choice they made, which happens to be in man’s future.

God cannot change history, since it happened, That future rejecter of God charity is part of the history God knows exist and cannot change.

What you are suggest is God would know the “future” of a never to exist person, but there is no future for a never to exist person, so there is nothing to know about such a person. You can make predict the movements of a never to exist robot, but if a future free will person is never to exist than God cannot know the free will choices He would allow this never to exist person would make.

God knows everything but there is just nothing to know about a never to exist free will person.

 

[AndOne]

Another solution would be that God uses hell in the hereafter as He uses punishment in this life--as an aid to repentance.

Haven't seen that one anywhere in the Bible....

 

[AndOne]

This has been asked before.

God knows from the beginning of time who in the future chose of their own free will not to accept His charity, because that is the choice they made, which happens to be in man’s future.

God cannot change history, since it happened, That future rejecter of God charity is part of the history God knows exist and cannot change.

What you are suggest is God would know the “future” of a never to exist person, but there is no future for a never to exist person, so there is nothing to know about such a person. You can make predict the movements of a never to exist robot, but if a future free will person is never to exist than God cannot know the free will choices He would allow this never to exist person would make.

God knows everything but there is just nothing to know about a never to exist free will person.

Makes no sense to me whatsoever. Either God knows all or He doesn't. This is a strange middle ground you have created here.

 

[AndOne]

The choice to refuse the offer was Bobs, not Gods. Foreknowledge is not cause.



?

It doesn't answer his question. If God knew the result then why bother at all?

 

[Steeno7]

It doesn't answer his question. If God knew the result then why bother at all?

No, that didn't answer that question, but my next response did.

 

[AndOne]

No, that didn't answer that question, but my next response did.

Answering a question with a question is not an answer.

 

[Steeno7]

Answering a question with a question is not an answer.

But perhaps it can cause the person to think for themselves, and find the answer that is obviously contained in the response.

 

[CryOfALion]

God is natural, not magic. So, He does things miraculously (like creating a universe and sustaining it,) but He also allows it to naturally evolve. This includes all trajectories toward life and death.

He wanted a family, so He made one. He wanted to be known to them, so He created creation. His omniscience does not infringe on our own personal choices, and intent. He just happens to know it.

And, perhaps in His will to be known and have a family, and His just hand in letting everything drive toward their due season of receipt (and His infinite wisdom,) He knew this iteration of creation would allow for all of His qualities to be known with the LEAST amount of casualties.

He sure could have just made a utopia, but that would just be programming. And, think about if you were a spirit with God, and God said, "you will not be saved/get it in life as a created being, so I won't create you." Even if you know God knows all, wouldn't you want the chance to see for yourself? Perhaps God is giving everything the opportunity to see who they really are through creation. Even if that means you end up separated from Him, through creation you know exactly why, as opposed to feeling neglected and cheated for never even having the chance to see for yourself.

It is paradoxical love; I could see my son saying, "let me prove you wrong, Dad" if I told him, "you won't be able to walk again" after a spinal injury. Would I let him try, knowing he may severely injury himself? I would, not because he may prove me wrong, but because he deserves to try, and see for himself. Trying to unrealistically prevent him from every danger, including death, hurts him more than if I allow him to experience the experience.

 

[AndOne]

But perhaps it can cause the person to think for themselves, and find the answer that is obviously contained in the response.

Or you could just answer the question instead of trying to be cryptic. My guess is the reason you are is because if you answer straight up it will come across as being open theist.

 

[AndOne]

God is natural, not magic. So, He does things miraculously (like creating a universe and sustaining it,) but He also allows it to naturally evolve. This includes all trajectories toward life and death.

He wanted a family, so He made one. He wanted to be known to them, so He created creation. His omniscience does not infringe on our own personal choices, and intent. He just happens to know it.

And, perhaps in His will to be known and have a family, and His just hand in letting everything drive toward their due season of receipt (and His infinite wisdom,) He knew this iteration of creation would allow for all of His qualities to be known with the LEAST amount of casualties.

He sure could have just made a utopia, but that would just be programming. And, think about if you were a spirit with God, and God said, "you will not be saved/get it in life as a created being, so I won't create you." Even if you know God knows all, wouldn't you want the chance to see for yourself? Perhaps God is giving everything the opportunity to see who they really are through creation. Even if that means you end up separated from Him, through creation you know exactly why, as opposed to feeling neglected and cheated for never even having the chance to see for yourself.

It is paradoxical love; I could see my son saying, "let me prove you wrong, Dad" if I told him, "you won't be able to walk again" after a spinal injury. Would I let him try, knowing he may severely injury himself? I would, not because he may prove me wrong, but because he deserves to try, and see for himself. Trying to unrealistically prevent him from every danger, including death, hurts him more than if I allow him to experience the experience.

Did you get these ideas from the Bible?

 

[Steeno7]

Or you could just answer the question instead of trying to be cryptic. My guess is the reason you are is because if you answer straight up it will come across as being open theist.

And I would say that if that is your guess, then you are clueless.

 

[CryOfALion]

Did you get these ideas from the Bible?

Yes.

You will find a lot said about things coming to in their due season, according to their time. Both God and Christmas talk about this a lot. If they were magical (quick fixing without regard for the consequences,) they would have snapped and made the biblical heroes automatic halo-holders. After all, they were shown to be men of God in the end... why would God let someone like David go through so much if he was a man after His own heart, and He knew David would accept Christ? He could have just made David a seat in heaven, and ignored his human life.