Why did God create Lucifer with the pride or whatever it was that made him rebel?

[HIM_In_Me_In_HIM]

Perhaps the whole issue with arguing free will is that God didn't say he gave us free will. He said he gave us dominion, which is an entirely different thing altogether. God is the only one who does, and in the nature of things the only one who can have free will. Dominion is the ability and responsibility to choose (think, speak, act) within a domain, that is, within certain limitations. But in order for a sovereign to give dominion (if it be true dominion and not just a pretense) he must determine the domain. Which means he exercises his sovereignty in a way so as to allow for real choices by and real consequences to the agent within that domain. So while free will would not have any restraints imposed by another, dominion would have precisely that. While free will is unimpeded, dominion is not. While free will must be total (all or nothing), dominion naturally must be limited. So then, if Christians would stop fighting for free will, and instead acknowledge dominion, this question of God's will completely nullifying man's, or man's God's would, I think, disappear. Also this issue of God's omnipotence is a non-issue, because although God is all powerful, he is also omniscient, and omnibenevolent. And omniscience knows that omnibenevolence cannot be brought about by mere omnipotence. Thus God says not by power, nor by might, but by my spirit. Or I might say it like this: power is not necessarily virtuous, but virtue is always powerful, and again righteousness necessarily produces life; but life does not necessarily produce righteousness.

....the proverbial "nail on the head" with this posting!!!
T'was so good I cc/pasted it to my docs/clipboard;
am wondering are u "seminary trained" or just [this!] well read??? (not to mention, or leave out H>S> inspired as well!!!)
I'm not intending flattery, nor being sarcastic when I say/write this here publicly to u, for all to see; rather am praising/edifying u for clearing up a matter that "eludes many" here at CF (& outside world) including me, when I go thru "foggy periods" of life.
U really hit a "Hhhhhome, rrrrrrrrrruunnnnn!" (as Kenny on ESPN used to say re: BBall highlights) with this post, David.

So Brother on behalf of all, I say: "thanks/kudos to u!"
(where's that "blessings/reps" thingy here again at CF?)

{On another matter, I noticed u signed up here on CF "waaaaaay back"(ESPN again....sorry, lol) in '09, yet only have 84(ish?) posts? What's up with that?? Methinks your "insights/expertise" are/is sorely needed 'round here. I'm going to ck out your "old posts" and see if you're consistently consistent (which is better than me, for sure) like the "above gold-medal winning" post's criteria or, IF H>S> spoke loud n clear thru you [To-day, if you hear HIS Voice....] 100% on this "one." (as I get sooooo excited when HE "shows up strongly!"}

Don't be a "stranger" (as i'll look up that "wanna befriend?" thingy here at CF, as well)!

Yeshua's Shalom rests mightily upon you!

 

[Gregory Thompson]

free will doesn't really root itself in the christian concept of "freedom" it tends to sound more like selfishness .

 

[RDKirk]

Perhaps the whole issue with arguing free will is that God didn't say he gave us free will. He said he gave us dominion, which is an entirely different thing altogether. God is the only one who does, and in the nature of things the only one who can have free will.

Dominion is the ability and responsibility to choose (think, speak, act) within a domain, that is, within certain limitations. But in order for a sovereign to give dominion (if it be true dominion and not just a pretense) he must determine the domain. Which means he exercises his sovereignty in a way so as to allow for real choices by and real consequences to the agent within that domain. So while free will would not have any restraints imposed by another, dominion would have precisely that. While free will is unimpeded, dominion is not. While free will must be total (all or nothing), dominion naturally must be limited.

So then, if Christians would stop fighting for free will, and instead acknowledge dominion, this question of God's will completely nullifying man's [free will], or man's God's would, I think, disappear.

Yes, exactly.

Scripture never says we have free will, and in fact, explicitly denies it in Romans. That's where Bob Dylan got his old song (after he became a Christian), "Everybody's Gotta Serve Somebody."

So where did this "free will" idea come from? The idea as you expressed it that humans have a set of choices within a defined domain was significantly different from the Greek concept of divine "fate" as expressed by schools like the Stoics. Some philosophers had already conceived of free will as the argument against Stoicism. Their arguments asserted either no god (Skepticism) or an unconcerned god (Deism).

But Christianity--asserting a God who is omnipotent and omniscient seemed to also reassert divine determinism. So theologians went back to Greek "free will" arguments against Stoic determinism--but the fact that what they called "free will" was really concept of "set of choices within a domain" was something rather assumed by them to be understood by Christians.

I like the way you put that, btw.

 

[Rev Randy]

free will doesn't really root itself in the christian concept of "freedom" it tends to sound more like selfishness .

The servant mindset can easily be lost in such.

 

[Optimax]

If Lucifer decided to rebel, couldn't it only have been because God created him with the pride or whatever it was that made him want to?

Perhaps it would help to read what scripture says about it.

Ezek 28:15-18

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
KJV

 

[RDKirk]

Perhaps it would help to read what scripture says about it.

Ezek 28:15-18

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

So was that "iniquity" created originally in Lucifier, or did he create it within himself?

I would assert that God's Plan never fails. A God whose plan could fail is an unreliable God, which is a far scarier proposition than a God with a plan that is difficult to understand.

This world is not God's Plan B, this is and has always been God's sole Plan.

 

[Optimax]

So was that "iniquity" created originally in Lucifier, or did he create it within himself?

I would assert that God's Plan never fails. A God whose plan could fail is an unreliable God, which is a far scarier proposition than a God with a plan that is difficult to understand.

This world is not God's Plan B, this is and has always been God's sole Plan.

There was no "iniquity" created in Lucifer.

There was a "will" created in or given to him as there is in you and me.

Lucifer own his own, by his will chose to rebel and against God.

Same as you and I can.

 

[RDKirk]

There was no "iniquity" created in Lucifer.

There was a "will" created in or given to him as there is in you and me.

Lucifer own his own, by his will chose to rebel and against God.

Same as you and I can.

But it says that where?

What I do find is this:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. - Colossians 1

I bolded the last clause. Satan only continues to exist because God wills him to continue to exist. Without God's constant will for his existance, Satan would not continue to exist. God does not have to destroy him, God only has to stop willing his existence.

So...we have an omnipotent, omniscient, eternal God who not only created the universe and all things, seen and unseen, but in whose constant will everything continually depends for its very existence.

This is not God's Plan B, this is God's sole Plan.

 

[Optimax]

But it says that where?

What I do find is this:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. - Colossians 1

I bolded the last clause. Satan only continues to exist because God wills him to continue to exist. Without God's constant will for his existance, Satan would not continue to exist. God does not have to destroy him, God only has to stop willing his existence.

So...we have an omnipotent, omniscient, eternal God who not only created the universe and all things, seen and unseen, but in whose constant will everything continually depends for its very existence.

This is not God's Plan B, this is God's sole Plan.

God does have a Plan A and no plan b.

We agree on that.

God is also totally just in everything He does.

God is totally just in the way He deals with every being.

Either man or angel or demon or evil spirit.

In Lucifer's/ Satan's case God is also totally just in the way He deals with him.

The devil is around until the time of his judgment is complete.

That is recorded in the Book of Revelation.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The servant mindset can easily be lost in such.

yeah .. i'm now reminded of "but now you are not acting in love" an example of the exertion of "freedom" that causes another to be in bondage .. so i see central the love . and also the opposite of freedom . but the completion of the harmony is very much what you just said . how it is lived .. is more important than what it is .. because in many cases .. this is the only way it is ever taught to any degree of clarity .

 

[Messy]

So was that "iniquity" created originally in Lucifier, or did he create it within himself?

I would assert that God's Plan never fails. A God whose plan could fail is an unreliable God, which is a far scarier proposition than a God with a plan that is difficult to understand.

This world is not God's Plan B, this is and has always been God's sole Plan.

Not unreliable, but innocent, without knowledge of good and evil, just like Adam who was created in His Image. The Lamb of God is innocent.
Knowledge, did He foreknow Lucifer would fall? It's nowhere in the Bible.
Hebrew Lexicon :: H3045 (KJV)
The Lamb was slain before He recreated the earth, the foundation of the world isn't the foundation of the earth, the beginning when He created heavens and earth. Before that Luciferv fell and the whole world of old was destroyed.
He would have been unreliable if He wanted to create us and have knowledge of good and evil and therefore created a creature He knew would turn into satan.

 

[SwordFall]

Yes, exactly.

Scripture never says we have free will, and in fact, explicitly denies it in Romans. That's where Bob Dylan got his old song (after he became a Christian), "Everybody's Gotta Serve Somebody."

So where did this "free will" idea come from? The idea as you expressed it that humans have a set of choices within a defined domain was significantly different from the Greek concept of divine "fate" as expressed by schools like the Stoics. Some philosophers had already conceived of free will as the argument against Stoicism. Their arguments asserted either no god (Skepticism) or an unconcerned god (Deism).

But Christianity--asserting a God who is omnipotent and omniscient seemed to also reassert divine determinism. So theologians went back to Greek "free will" arguments against Stoic determinism--but the fact that what they called "free will" was really concept of "set of choices within a domain" was something rather assumed by them to be understood by Christians.

I like the way you put that, btw.

Free will and predestination are a duality. All is predestined, with free will being the driving force.

The contradiction of 'sola predestination' is that it would be impossible for us to sin, because we would always be serving the perfect will of God.
In retrospect, predestination sounds far more pantheistic then it does Abrahamic, something I noticed many years ago when predestination theology was put in front of me.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Perhaps it would help to read what scripture says about it.

Ezek 28:15-18

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
KJV

Erring translations because of error in doctrines preconceived by translators make for myths in the Church!
The Hebrew in no wise says what the English translators made it out to be!
Ezekiel 28:8,9


They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas. Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? *but thou art Adam*, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.



That is not speaking of Satan nor to Satan. It is speaking of Adam, and to the Adam spirit; of Nimrod, the ancestor of the king of Babylon, and to the King of Babylon who bears the spiritual guilt of his head/first Adam, and of his own line of ancestry who rebelled against God in Nimrod's tower rebellion.


Satan is not a human being and he will not come to ashes upon the earth and he is in heaven and will remain there until he is shut in Sheol for the thousand years, to be brought up for the final job of tempting and slandering and accusing that he was created to do, so as to prove/test every man born in the millennial reign; and the unworthy will fall to the temptations of Satan and his angels and they will be cast into the Lake of Fire as eternal prey for the Satans -along with all the fallen holy angels and demons who are eternal prey for the Satans in the Lake of Fire.
Satan is never "killed/slain" anywhere! His kingdom is the kingdom of darkness, which is the Lake of Fire, and Satan is the Prince of that kingdom created for his own domain forever where he will be shut up in, and never shall he come out!


Adam -the head of our kind- was in the Mountain of God -which is Eden above where Paradise is [the third heaven, says Paul, and Jesus re-iterates that the Tree of Life is in the midst of that Paradise of God in the third heaven], and the head of the Adam race was cast down, bodily, from Eden above; and each soul come to fruit in its Adam being was created as a seed in the loins of the firstborn of the race and carried in the male of the kind by the Adam spirit, down through time -like a stream, and was in the loins of the head of the race in Eden, the Mountain of God.

Adam is one spirit [Malachi 2:15], and in the one single created Adam spirit, each soul come to fruit has a share/residue of the one created Adam spirit and is born dead in spirit as to being a son of God, but the Adam head/spirit still stands before God and will be cast down- and never stand before God as all the heads of all the created spirits do when the thousand years are ended.

Gen 6:3 And YHWH said, [My] Spirit [shall not] forever/for eternity strive [with the] Adam [spirit] , [also his] flesh [going astray/erring]: his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

The 120 years were from that pronouncement to Noah about the years to preach repentance to that present evil generation, and also, a double prophecy in that Adam is given grace to multiply and repent on earth for 120 Jubilee years from that date -which = 6000 years for the Adam spirit and flesh before complete cutting off forever before God's face, both the Adam spirit and the Adam flesh -which is the sign of circumcision given only to the Israelite males to wear in their flesh as a sign of the cutting off of the multiplication of the Adam seed by the Adam spirit from the loins of the male Adam persons, on the 8th day after their birth; until that prophecy is fulfilled in that the Adam will cease in the 8th Day of creation; which is "the New Beginning", when only the New Man name of the second Human being Son of God exists before God: That name is "Israel" -Isaiah 49; Revelation 3:121


So Adam is doomed in spirit and in flesh; but the spirit is not cast down yet and the flesh is not cast into the Lake of Fire yet, to be an undying worm -minus the spirit.

The Adam spirit will never rise from Sheol below earth when the bodies of the Adam souls are resurrected to be cast body and soul into the Lake of Fire for their unrepentance, and at that time, the Adam spirit will also cease standing before God -the Father of all the created Spirits, and those souls in their resurrected bodies cast into the Lake of Fire will be forever "undying worms", for without the spirit there is no hope for the metamorphosis into the glorious image of the Son of God of the second creation human being kind =the New Man, whose name is "Israel", not "Adam".

Meantime, the king of Babylon is guilty of the sin of Nimrod, being his descendant, and the spirit bears the guilt of Nimrod -besides the guilt of the first Adam. God speaks to the spirit of the being who was cast down and out of Eden bodily in the first Adam, and who will lose the standing before God as to the Adam spirit, on the appointed day.


The sanctuary of an Adam soul is his body.

God holds controversies with individual Adam persons, and their seed after them, until those controversies are settled.

 

[Optimax]

Erring translations because of error in doctrines preconceived by translators make for myths in the Church!
The Hebrew in no wise says what the English translators made it out to be!
Ezekiel 28:8,9


They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas. Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? *but thou art Adam*, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.



That is not speaking of Satan nor to Satan. It is speaking of Adam, and to the Adam spirit; of Nimrod, the ancestor of the king of Babylon, and to the King of Babylon who bears the spiritual guilt of his head/first Adam, and of his own line of ancestry who rebelled against God in Nimrod's tower rebellion.


Satan is not a human being and he will not come to ashes upon the earth and he is in heaven and will remain there until he is shut in Sheol for the thousand years, to be brought up for the final job of tempting and slandering and accusing that he was created to do, so as to prove/test every man born in the millennial reign; and the unworthy will fall to the temptations of Satan and his angels and they will be cast into the Lake of Fire as eternal prey for the Satans -along with all the fallen holy angels and demons who are eternal prey for the Satans in the Lake of Fire.
Satan is never "killed/slain" anywhere! His kingdom is the kingdom of darkness, which is the Lake of Fire, and Satan is the Prince of that kingdom created for his own domain forever where he will be shut up in, and never shall he come out!


Adam -the head of our kind- was in the Mountain of God -which is Eden above where Paradise is [the third heaven, says Paul, and Jesus re-iterates that the Tree of Life is in the midst of that Paradise of God in the third heaven], and the head of the Adam race was cast down, bodily, from Eden above; and each soul come to fruit in its Adam being was created as a seed in the loins of the firstborn of the race and carried in the male of the kind by the Adam spirit, down through time -like a stream, and was in the loins of the head of the race in Eden, the Mountain of God.

Adam is one spirit [Malachi 2:15], and in the one single created Adam spirit, each soul come to fruit has a share/residue of the one created Adam spirit and is born dead in spirit as to being a son of God, but the Adam head/spirit still stands before God and will be cast down- and never stand before God as all the heads of all the created spirits do when the thousand years are ended.

Gen 6:3 And YHWH said, [My] Spirit [shall not] forever/for eternity strive [with the] Adam [spirit] , [also his] flesh [going astray/erring]: his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

The 120 years were from that pronouncement to Noah about the years to preach repentance to that present evil generation, and also, a double prophecy in that Adam is given grace to multiply and repent on earth for 120 Jubilee years from that date -which = 6000 years for the Adam spirit and flesh before complete cutting off forever before God's face, both the Adam spirit and the Adam flesh -which is the sign of circumcision given only to the Israelite males to wear in their flesh as a sign of the cutting off of the multiplication of the Adam seed by the Adam spirit from the loins of the male Adam persons, on the 8th day after their birth; until that prophecy is fulfilled in that the Adam will cease in the 8th Day of creation; which is "the New Beginning", when only the New Man name of the second Human being Son of God exists before God: That name is "Israel" -Isaiah 49; Revelation 3:121


So Adam is doomed in spirit and in flesh; but the spirit is not cast down yet and the flesh is not cast into the Lake of Fire yet, to be an undying worm -minus the spirit.

The Adam spirit will never rise from Sheol below earth when the bodies of the Adam souls are resurrected to be cast body and soul into the Lake of Fire for their unrepentance, and at that time, the Adam spirit will also cease standing before God -the Father of all the created Spirits, and those souls in their resurrected bodies cast into the Lake of Fire will be forever "undying worms", for without the spirit there is no hope for the metamorphosis into the glorious image of the Son of God of the second creation human being kind =the New Man, whose name is "Israel", not "Adam".

Meantime, the king of Babylon is guilty of the sin of Nimrod, being his descendant, and the spirit bears the guilt of Nimrod -besides the guilt of the first Adam. God speaks to the spirit of the being who was cast down and out of Eden bodily in the first Adam, and who will lose the standing before God as to the Adam spirit, on the appointed day.


The sanctuary of an Adam soul is his body.

God holds controversies with individual Adam persons, and their seed after them, until those controversies are settled.

Adam was a man not a Cherub which is an angel.

God was speaking to an angel which was Lucifer.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

You do have a unique "view" of it.

 

[HIM_In_Me_In_HIM]

....He is also Omniscient, and Omnibenevolent. And Omniscience knows that Omnibenevolence cannot be brought about by mere Omnipotence.

Pray to see u "expound" upon this for me/us, if H>S> so "moves u to"

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Adam was a man not a Cherub which is an angel.

God was speaking to an angel which was Lucifer.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

You do have a unique "view" of it.

God is speaking to an Adam....not Satan, but an Adam.

In context, look at the Hebrew wording. He calls him "Adam".

The Hebrew in no wise says what the English translators made it out to be!
Ezekiel 28:8,9
They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas. Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? *but thou art Adam*, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

Satan was not and is not an Adam -nor was he ever a cherub! the tempter in the Garden was not called a cherub, and the word for serpent in that passage is the same for the Serifs.

 

[SwordFall]

Satan was not and is not an Adam -nor was he ever a cherub! the tempter in the Garden was not called a cherub, and the word for serpent in that passage is the same for the Serifs.

Satan is compatible with being a cherub, because cherub literally means "fullness of knowledge".
Being that Satan was basically the keeper of knowledge, it just makes sense that he would be a cherub.

On the other hand, serifs are noted often as being God's caretakers, and Satan was indeed keeping the Garden. So in reality, Satan could actually be seen as both.

 

[HIM_In_Me_In_HIM]

Erring translations because of error in doctrines preconceived by translators make for myths in the Church!
The Hebrew in no wise says what the English translators made it out to be!
Ezekiel 28:8,9


They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas. Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? *but thou art Adam*, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

I agree on translational "errors" so to speak, tho' H>S> has worked amazing wonders in spite of these, wouldn't u agree YSMe ?
Best u stick with the Hebrew, as per your assertion and thereby be at the very least, consistent. thank u.

oh, thought a little "digging" would help here too; to wit:

Tyre is the Latin name for the famous Phoenician city often mentioned together with Sidon (Joshua 10:29). Famous Tyrians are Hiram, the builder of the temple of Solomon, and Jezebel the wife of king Ahab.

The Semitic, and thus original, name for Tyre is pronounced Zor or Zur. In Biblical Hebrew this name looks exactly like words coming off the

(1897-1901) and

(1973-1975) root-groups. More specifically, scholars assume that the Hebrew name for Tyre,

, equals the regular word

(sur) meaning rock (Jeremiah 21:13, Job 14:18). In Deuteronomy 32:31 the author compares the gods of the nations to the living God and says, "Indeed, their rock is not like our Rock."

See the relate name Mizraim for an extensive treatment of these root-groups. See the similar name Zur for possible implied meanings of the Biblical name of Tyre.

For a meaning of the Hebrew name for Tyre, Jones' Dictionary of Old Testament Proper Names reads Rock. NOBS Study Bible Name List does not translate.
[above courtesy of abarim publications.com; with sole rights & privileges]

***Would like to dicucss/comment further on your post, YSMe, but secular work duty calls presently. Yeshuas' Shalom Aleichem.***

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Satan is compatible with being a cherub, because cherub literally means "fullness of knowledge".
Being that Satan was basically the keeper of knowledge, it just makes sense that he would be a cherub.

On the other hand, serifs are noted often as being God's caretakers, and Satan was indeed keeping the Garden. So in reality, Satan could actually be seen as both.

You got that wrong! Adam was set in the Garden to dress and keep it!

And no, Cherub is not "fullnes of knowledge" -"full and knowledge" have different Hebrew etymons than "cherub" does. IT is totally impossible to get "fullness of knowledge" from "cherub".

h7646
שָׂבַע saba` full




h3045
יָדַע yada`to know


h3742
כְּרוּב kĕruwb

 

[Nanopants]

No. It was not because God created him with pride. God made him a marvel to behold. Strong, smart , beautiful and talented.

In his free willed nature the enemy wanted more. He wanted adoration unto himself. Not with God as the rightful heir of praise for his wonderful nature. But for himself.

God did not create any jealousy or pain for the enemy. He created it for himself.

Wanted to be more than he was meant to be.

But praise the Lord. God used/is using his betrayal for our ultimate benefit.

God is good

I agree with this, but I'd add that satan lives in mankind. I can't define it, and I don't know what it is but I'm inclined to believe that it is part of God's creation which is cut off from the true vine.

God wants good fruit, but some branches are cut off and cast into fire. Whatever is in mankind when that happens begins to rot and to decay, and from there arises evil intent that just gets worse and worse.