Why did God create a seemingly competitor for himself?

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Another great question is: If God is omnipotent and hates evil, why hasn't he destroyed Lucifer / Satan already? What is God waiting around for? Even more evil to be sown by Satan and his demons in the Universe and the Heavens?

I believe the answer to that question is: God, The Heavenly Father, still deeply loves Lucifer / Satan. He is likely repulsed by his behavior yet still loves him as a Father. Think of Christ's parable of the Prodigal Son and assign the character of prodigal son to Satan.

So what made Lucifer go off the tracks? Possibly Jesus, the only begotten son sparked immense jealousy in Lucifer? Also, Lucifer thought he himself could reign as the Father?

So, what do you think, does God the Father STILL deeply love Lucifer?

When God created living beings(angels and mankind) he created them with free will.One of the angels who became Satan and the Devil because he chose to be God's competitor brought evil in God's creation.When you go back to the beginning when Satan tempted eve Satan was saying a lot of slanderous things about God and his Sovereignty over mankind.This is why things have been going on for 6000 years or so because since man sided with Satan he has been allowing time to go by to allow Satan and man to prove the allegations Satan has spoken against God and his sovereignty(GENESIS 3:1-6) .

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

When God created living beings(angels and mankind) he created them with free will.One of the angels who became Satan and the Devil because he chose to be God's competitor brought evil in God's creation.When you go back to the beginning when Satan tempted eve Satan was saying a lot of slanderous things about God and his Sovereignty over mankind.This is why things have been going on for 6000 years or so because since man sided with Satan he has been allowing time to go by to allow Satan and man to prove the allegations Satan has spoken against God and his sovereignty(GENESIS 3:1-6) .

Yes. The name Satan means enemy. He is also called the Father of Lies by the Lord. He is not loved and his destiny is destruction forever.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

Another great question is: If God is omnipotent and hates evil, why hasn't he destroyed Lucifer / Satan already? What is God waiting around for? Even more evil to be sown by Satan and his demons in the Universe and the Heavens?

I believe the answer to that question is: God, The Heavenly Father, still deeply loves Lucifer / Satan. He is likely repulsed by his behavior yet still loves him as a Father. Think of Christ's parable of the Prodigal Son and assign the character of prodigal son to Satan.

So what made Lucifer go off the tracks? Possibly Jesus, the only begotten son sparked immense jealousy in Lucifer? Also, Lucifer thought he himself could reign as the Father?

So, what do you think, does God the Father STILL deeply love Lucifer?

Sin means opposing God. The name "Satan" means enemy. Satan's destiny is the Lake of Fire. God does not love him.

There is nothing that God must do, but He chose to create creatures with the capacity to rebel against Him. God certainly had the power to do this. And He knew what He would do when His creatures did eventually rebel.

Even though God knew beforehand what Lucifer (and what Adam and Eve) would do, He granted them the capacity to do as they chose anyway. God condemns no one unjustly by causing anyone to sin. He is the judge of all the earth and He will do right by everyone, according to His holiness, wisdom, righteous justice, and grace. In general, He does not coerce His freewill creatures, yet He knows what they will do and takes their choices fully into consideration when making His own divine choices — so that nothing can truly thwart His ultimate will. It all resolves, of course, at the Cross — and perhaps nowhere else. In the Eschaton, this divine process will reveal God’s incomprehensible wisdom, grace, and glory.

God does not instantly wipe out all evil (He could) because that would mean instantly wiping out all of us. He has another plan, which allows Satan and evil room to operate temporarily, but which also allows humans to be redeemed. We can accept and believe in His Christ (and thus receive forgiveness and transformation) or we can reject Christ (choosing Satan’s way) and remain separated from God—thus receiving all of the consequences of that separation. Augustine stressed that evil will not be allowed existence forever, and it is only God's patient grace which forestalls the Judgment Day until the full measure of believers are brought into the Kingdom. When the Kingdom is fully ready, then the "goats and sheep" will be divided, and all that is evil (including Satan, temptation, suffering, and death) will be eliminated.

So, in his patience, God temporarily allows Satan some rope, and allows people to choose evil and to suffer its consequences. However, as the Book of Revelation reveals, the day is coming when God will say, in essence, “Time’s up!” and all evil, suffering, and even death will be destroyed.

What is amazing is that God’s patience with us is so great that He has not done so yet, and He will not do so until all of His plans are accomplished and all of the elect are comfortably at home in the Kingdom of God.

It is part of the heresy of universalism to believe that all people will ultimately be saved, perhaps even Satan and the demons. There is a tremendous amount of biblical evidence to refute such beliefs. You have to disbelieve in the Bible to hold such ideas seriously. And if you disbelieve the Bible then you cannot truly be a Christian.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

Grammar Nazis aside, you understand my question: Satan.

My faith covers all of the questions that won't ever be answered in this life. But the questions still remain as long as I'm given the gift to ask them.

Why does God want the jealousy?

Why would God want jealousy? He doesn't. Why would God want a competitor? He didn't. He wanted freewill creatures of intelligence and choice with whom He could have a real relationship (not just genetically programmed beasts). He was looking eventually for friends and a family. And this is exactly what He is getting, but only those who truly desire to be His friends and family. The rest can go somewhere else.

 

[Theo Book]

Yes. The name Satan means enemy. He is also called the Father of Lies by the Lord. He is not loved and his destiny is destruction forever.

Consider - God is a BEING of contrasts - He is comprised of characteristics which are at opposite poles insofar as comparisons are possible; i.e., Love/Hate; Justice/Mercy; blessings/Curses; and how can God offer eternal Salvation with no reference to eternal Damnation? It would be inconsistent with what we know about God.

He has created a world and a system whereby He can bless righteousness, and condemn unrighteousness.

He has told us of several individuals who by their own righteousness, have saved themselves; and conversely,
warns constantly,
of the dangers consistent with unrighteous living.

And who are those few to whom sin was not imputed?

Rom 4: 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey,
his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the
servants of righteousness.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.17 All unrighteousness
is sin: and there is a sin (unrighteousness) not unto death.

SEVERAL MEN WHO SINNED SINS NOT UNTO DEATH -

Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he
had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Ezel 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they
should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the
Lord GOD. 15 If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts: 16 Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate. 17 Or if I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword, go through the land; so that I cut off man and beast from it: 18
Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall
deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered
themselves. 19 Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury
upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast: 20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their
righteousness.

Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not Daily, as those high priests,offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

So scripture teaches a few things that differ from Orthodoxy.

 

[Theo Book]

Yes. The name Satan means enemy. He is also called the Father of Lies by the Lord. He is not loved and his destiny is destruction forever.

Consider - God is a BEING of contrasts - He is comprised of characteristics which are at opposite poles insofar as comparisons are possible; i.e., Love/Hate; Justice/Mercy; blessings/Curses; and how can God offer eternal Salvation with no reference to eternal Damnation? It would be inconsistent with what we know about God.

He has created a world and a system whereby He can bless righteousness, and condemn unrighteousness.

He has told us of several individuals who by their own righteousness, have saved themselves; and conversely,
warns constantly,
of the dangers consistent with unrighteous living.

And who are those few to whom sin was not imputed?

Rom 4: 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey,
his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the
servants of righteousness.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.17 All unrighteousness
is sin: and there is a sin (unrighteousness) not unto death.

SEVERAL MEN WHO SINNED SINS NOT UNTO DEATH -

Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he
had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Ezel 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they
should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the
Lord GOD. 15 If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts: 16 Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate. 17 Or if I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword, go through the land; so that I cut off man and beast from it: 18
Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall
deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered
themselves. 19 Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury
upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast: 20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their
righteousness.

Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests,offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

So scripture teaches a few things that differ from Orthodoxy.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

Consider - God is a BEING of contrasts - He is comprised of characteristics which are at opposite poles insofar as comparisons are possible; i.e., Love/Hate; Justice/Mercy; blessings/Curses; and how can God offer eternal Salvation with no reference to eternal Damnation? It would be inconsistent with what we know about God.

He has created a world and a system whereby He can bless righteousness, and condemn unrighteousness.

He has told us of several individuals who by their own righteousness, have saved themselves; and conversely,
warns constantly,
of the dangers consistent with unrighteous living.

And who are those few to whom sin was not imputed?

Rom 4: 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey,
his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the
servants of righteousness.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.17 All unrighteousness
is sin: and there is a sin (unrighteousness) not unto death.

SEVERAL MEN WHO SINNED SINS NOT UNTO DEATH -

Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he
had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Ezel 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they
should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the
Lord GOD. 15 If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts: 16 Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate. 17 Or if I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword, go through the land; so that I cut off man and beast from it: 18
Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall
deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered
themselves. 19 Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury
upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast: 20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their
righteousness.

Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not ly, as those high priests,offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

So scripture teaches a few things that differ from Orthodoxy.

Interesting mix of passages. The point you are trying to make is unclear to me, and I don't think it is my own fault.
I see nothing that "differs from orthodoxy." I have been familiar with these scriptures for many decades.

Pleasing God (like Enoch) which was prior to Christ's forgiveness, was almost impossible. It was not that Enoch (and a few others like Elijah) did not sin, it was that sin was not "imputed" to them, that is, the sin was not regarded as sufficient to discard them to the nether regions. But they were very rare individuals indeed, and God gave even them a break because they were limited by not having the Holy Spirit within as a permanent help.

Our salvation in Christ is much better than that; our sins have been fully wiped away and we are being changed from the inside out to be like Christ. Regenerated. Transformed. Becoming better day by day. We are true children of God, sealed with His Spirit, and have the righteousness of Jesus imputed to us.

But there are many in our churches and elsewhere who fake it; they are pretend Christians who try to look good on the outside but are selfish, egotistical, and mean in their own homes. God knows who is who.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

Consider - God is a BEING of contrasts - He is comprised of characteristics which are at opposite poles insofar as comparisons are possible; i.e., Love/Hate; Justice/Mercy; blessings/Curses; and how can God offer eternal Salvation with no reference to eternal Damnation? It would be inconsistent with what we know about God.

He has created a world and a system whereby He can bless righteousness, and condemn unrighteousness.

He has told us of several individuals who by their own righteousness, have saved themselves; and conversely,
warns constantly,
of the dangers consistent with unrighteous living.

And who are those few to whom sin was not imputed?

Rom 4: 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey,
his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the
servants of righteousness.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.17 All unrighteousness
is sin: and there is a sin (unrighteousness) not unto death.

SEVERAL MEN WHO SINNED SINS NOT UNTO DEATH -

Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he
had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Ezel 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they
should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the
Lord GOD. 15 If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts: 16 Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate. 17 Or if I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword, go through the land; so that I cut off man and beast from it: 18
Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall
deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered
themselves. 19 Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury
upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast: 20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their
righteousness.

Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not ly, as those high priests,offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

So scripture teaches a few things that differ from Orthodoxy.

God seems to be a BEING of contrasts because He is so great and beyond our comprehension. But if we could truly know Him in depth, we would see that He is completely consistent with His own divine nature. Justice requires mercy sometimes. With sin in the world, love requires hate sometimes. As the Book of Revelation makes clear, there is no salvation without reference to damnation. Judgment Day IS coming and all evil will be eliminated. This is all biblical (orthodox) Christianity.

 

[Theo Book]

Interesting mix of passages. The point you are trying to make is unclear to me, and I don't think it is my own fault.
I see nothing that "differs from orthodoxy."

It depends upon which brand of "Orthodoxy" you understand and worship. Each denomination vies with others to come up with a winning doctrine or creed, and make division, instead of uniting in one concise presentation of "Orthodoxy."

For example, some teach the doctrine of "Original sin" where in man is totally depraved at birth, due to inheriting the sin of Adam, "original sin" as it were. Not taught in scripture, but still considered "Orthodoxy" by many.

Most understand Jesus had no sin of any variety, For another example; But Jesus had unimputed sin, just as did Enoch, Noah, Daniel, and Job. They all "pleased God" because there was no sin "imputed" to them, for all their sins were "sins not unto death," therefore, not imputed.

For another example, Jesus attained salvation, from the sins not imputed, because "all unrighteousness is sin," and had to be accounted for, but when the translators found that scripture, they added to "Jesus attained Salvation" they added "for us" because they did not understand "All have sinned" and "Blessed is the man to whom sin is NOT IMPUTED," both of which apply to Jesus.

The translators add words to make Jesus pre-exist creation, for another example, like adding to John 17:5, the English "Was" after "Before the world." It is not in the Greek, but is supplied to make it appear Jesus had glory with the Father prior to the world being, but the Greek references the glory Jesus had in prophecy in front of the whole world; i.e., "Before the world" in the same way it speaks of "Peter stood before the gate."

And many other "aids to understanding" committed by the translators. THAT is why I do not concentrate upon memorizing scripture with all its errors of translation, but concentrate more upon determining what the message without all the additions of translation really says.

I have been familiar with these scriptures for many decades.

Pleasing God (like Enoch) which was prior to Christ's forgiveness, was almost impossible. It was not that Enoch (and a few others like Elijah) did not sin, it was that sin was not "imputed" to them, that is, the sin was not regarded as sufficient to discard them to the nether regions. But they were very rare individuals indeed, and God gave even them a break because they were limited by not having the Holy Spirit within as a permanent help.

Our salvation in Christ is much better than that; our sins have been fully wiped away and we are being changed from the inside out to be like Christ. Regenerated. Transformed. Becoming better day by day. We are true children of God, sealed with His Spirit, and have the righteousness of Jesus imputed to us.

Did you know that the word "Translated" referring to Enoch, is the same word applied to "God translated us into the kingdom of His dear son?" I think that is wonderful.

But there are many in our churches and elsewhere who fake it; they are pretend Christians who try to look good on the outside but are selfish, egotistical, and mean in their own homes. God knows who is who.

Perhaps they are simply not yet beyond the struggle.....

Keep on keeping on folks.....

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

It depends upon which brand of "Orthodoxy" you understand and worship. Each denomination vies with others to come up with a winning doctrine or creed, and make division, instead of uniting in one concise presentation of "Orthodoxy."

For example, some teach the doctrine of "Original sin" where in man is totally depraved at birth, due to inheriting the sin of Adam, "original sin" as it were. Not taught in scripture, but still considered "Orthodoxy" by many.

Most understand Jesus had no sin of any variety, For another example; But Jesus had unimputed sin, just as did Enoch, Noah, Daniel, and Job. They all "pleased God" because there was no sin "imputed" to them, for all their sins were "sins not unto death," therefore, not imputed.

For another example, Jesus attained salvation, from the sins not imputed, because "all unrighteousness is sin," and had to be accounted for, but when the translators found that scripture, they added to "Jesus attained Salvation" they added "for us" because they did not understand "All have sinned" and "Blessed is the man to whom sin is NOT IMPUTED," both of which apply to Jesus.

The translators add words to make Jesus pre-exist creation, for another example, like adding to John 17:5, the English "Was" after "Before the world." It is not in the Greek, but is supplied to make it appear Jesus had glory with the Father prior to the world being, but the Greek references the glory Jesus had in prophecy in front of the whole world; i.e., "Before the world" in the same way it speaks of "Peter stood before the gate."

And many other "aids to understanding" committed by the translators. THAT is why I do not concentrate upon memorizing scripture with all its errors of translation, but concentrate more upon determining what the message without all the additions of translation really says.



Did you know that the word "Translated" referring to Enoch, is the same word applied to "God translated us into the kingdom of His dear son?" I think that is wonderful.




Perhaps they are simply not yet beyond the struggle.....

Keep on keeping on folks.....

Wow. I don't feel like debating today, but I must say that your brand of "orthodoxy" is much different than the gospel message I was taught (in my family, in many churches, and in seminary). I would call it "another gospel."

 

[Theo Book]

Wow. I don't feel like debating today, but I must say that your brand of "orthodoxy" is much different than the gospel message I was taught (in my family, in many churches, and in seminary). I would call it "another gospel."

So would I. It certainly differs from Seminary, or Catechism, or creed or doctrines of men.

For example, the "doctrine" of "original sin" which is so popular with church leaders-

(Deut 24:16) The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the
children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

(2 Kings 14:6) But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is
written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The
fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

(2 Chro 25:3) Now it came to pass, when the kingdom was established to him, that he slew
his servants that had killed the king his father. 4 But he slew not their children, but did as it
is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying, The
fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin.

(Ezek 18:1) The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying, 2 What mean ye, that ye
use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour
grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? 3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. 4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, 6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither
hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman, 7 And
hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by
violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.

10 If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any
one of these things, 11 And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon
the mountains, and defiled his neighbour's wife,12 Hath oppressed the poor and needy,
hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge,and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination, 13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken
increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he
shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him. 14 Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and
considereth, and doeth not such like, 15 That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife, 16 Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a
garment, 17 That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the
iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and
did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity. 19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my
statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his
righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he
should return from his ways, and live? 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and
doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his
righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed,
and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way
equal? are not your ways unequal?

26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and
doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath
committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith
the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a
new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore
turn yourselves, and live ye.

Then Paul says in
(Romans 2:11) For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have
sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law
shall be judged by the law; 13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law,
these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15

Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one
another; 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

So "According to Paul's gospel, the "doctrine of original sin" is phony doctrine.

And that's just for starters.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

So would I. It certainly differs from Seminary, or Catechism, or creed or doctrines of men.

For example, the "doctrine" of "original sin" which is so popular with church leaders-

(Deut 24:16) The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the
children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

(2 Kings 14:6) But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is
written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The
fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

(2 Chro 25:3) Now it came to pass, when the kingdom was established to him, that he slew
his servants that had killed the king his father. 4 But he slew not their children, but did as it
is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying, The
fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin.

(Ezek 18:1) The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying, 2 What mean ye, that ye
use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour
grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? 3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. 4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, 6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither
hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman, 7 And
hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by
violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.

10 If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any
one of these things, 11 And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon
the mountains, and defiled his neighbour's wife,12 Hath oppressed the poor and needy,
hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge,and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination, 13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken
increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he
shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him. 14 Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and
considereth, and doeth not such like, 15 That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife, 16 Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a
garment, 17 That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the
iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and
did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity. 19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my
statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his
righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he
should return from his ways, and live? 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and
doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his
righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed,
and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way
equal? are not your ways unequal?

26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and
doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath
committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith
the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a
new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore
turn yourselves, and live ye.

Then Paul says in
(Romans 2:11) For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have
sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law
shall be judged by the law; 13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law,
these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15

Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one
another; 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

So "According to Paul's gospel, the "doctrine of original sin" is phony doctrine.

And that's just for starters.

Actually it is NOT a phony doctrine and the reality that Paul asserts that ALL people are sinners and that this is associated with Adam's sin pretty much seals it. I believe that you are off base in virtually all of your assertions. I am not going to get into the details of these issues because it is clear that you won't listen. I must say, your interpretations presented here are blatantly heterodox and eccentric.

Other than personal hubris, what makes you think that your own interpretations of the scriptures are more correct than 2000 years of Christian leaders?
When the early Church Fathers, the Eastern Orthodox, the Roman Catholic, and the Reformers all agree on something, you can take it to the bank. Otherwise, you are putting yourself above all of these believers as somehow being only one who has the Holy Spirit, as the only one with a “corner on the truth.” I don’t think so, nor will any of the readers here.

I don’t know about you, but I get some things wrong sometimes and have go back and do some research. I would be both ignorant and egotistical if I did not examine what respected Christian theologians throughout the history of Christianity have written about the issue at hand. And I still have to interpret their writings. I know that every brain is imperfect and all of us have our biases. So I cannot fully trust even my own interpretations. Proverbs 3:5-6.

 

[Theo Book]

Actually it is NOT a phony doctrine and the reality that Paul asserts that ALL people are sinners and that this is associated with Adam's sin pretty much seals it.

So then, why did Paul say it was
EVE who sinned first? (1 Tim 2:11-14) Isn't "First Sin" equivalent to "Original Sin?"

Of did I miss a class on the meaning of "Original?"

I believe that you are off base in virtually all of your assertions.

I believe I stated that quite clearly.

I am not going to get into the details of these issues because it is clear that you won't listen.

Ahh! I misjudged - a SCHOLAR are you?

I must say, your interpretations presented here are blatantly heterodox and eccentric.

And you think that is WRONG?

I'll tell you what I think is wrong;

When church leaders read scripture about
GOD and GOD alone, then apply it to themselves, well...figure it out.

(Psalm 111:9) "He sent redemption unto his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever: holy and (foberon) reverend is his name."

(Hebrews 10:31) "It is a (foberon) fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

Yet church leaders by the giga-millions identify their
OWN PERSON as "REVEREND."

They establish special clothing for the leaders, special privilege, special greetings, special places to sit in the assembly....

Not all do it all, but perhaps you get my point.

Do you know a preacher or minister who is not addressed as "Reverend" other than in the "Church of Christ?"

Other that personal hubris, what makes you think that your own interpretations of the scriptures are more correct than 2000 years of Christian leaders?

Exegesis.

Please tell me which Greek word you use to get "WAS" as the last word in John 17:5

Please tell me which Greek word you use to get "Jesus" in John 1:1 to develop the pre-existence of Jesus as God!

When the early Church Fathers, the Eastern Orthodox, the Roman Catholic, and the Reformers all agree on something, you can take it to the bank.

Not me. I take it to the soul, and meditate and pray over it, because much of it was speculation and false conclusion.

Did you know Clement & Tertullian referenced the
Phoenix, from Egyptian Fable, as proof of the Resurrection of Men?

TERTULLIAN AND CLEMENT REFERENCE THE PHOENIX FROM EGYPTIAN FABLE
[The Writings Of Tertullian (a.d.145-220); On The Resurrection Of The Flesh]

Chap.XIII From our author's view of a verse in the ninety second Psalm,[verse twelve, which references the "phoinix" which is a Palm Tree.] the phoenix is made a symbol of the resurrection of our bodies.

If however, all nature but faintly figures our resurrection; if creation affords no sign precisely like it

[Apostolic Fathers Vol.I - p.12]
[The First Epistle Of Clement (a.d.100-200) To The Corinthians]

"Let us consider that wonderful sign [of the resurrection] which takes place in Eastern lands, that is in Arabia and the countries round about."

"There is a certain bird which is called a Phoenix. This is the only one of its kind, and lives five hundred years. And when the time of its dissolution draws near that it must die, it builds itself a nest of frankincense, and myrrh, and other spices, into which, when the time is fulfilled, it enters and dies."

"But, as the flesh decays, a certain kind of worm is produced, which, being nourished by the juices of the dead bird, brings forth feathers."

"Then, when it has aquired strength, it takes up that nest in which are the bones of its parent, and bearing these it passes from the land of Arabia into Egypt, to the city called Heliopolis."

"And in open day, flying in the sight of all men, it places them on the altar of the sun, and having done this, hastens back to its former abode."

"The priests then inspect the registers of the dates, and find that it has returned exactly as the five hundredth year was completed."

"Do we then deem it any great and wonderful thing for the maker of all things to raise up again those that have piously served him in that assurance of faith, when even by a bird, he shows us the mightiness of his power to fulfill his promise?"

Yet it was one of the Clement's writings that express his understanding of who was considered to be GOD, CIRCA 96 A.D. Or, to put it another way, what was the doctrine of his day, as relates to a trinity?

PP-59. Let all the Gentiles know that YOU ARE GOD ALONE, [ho theos monos]

AND JESUS CHRIST IS YOUR SON,and we are your people and the sheep of your pasture.
(Apostolic Fathers P.36-37/82-83)

Otherwise, you are putting yourself above all of these believers as somehow being only one who has the Holy Spirit, as the only one with a “corner on the truth.”

So which of my scripture references is falsely presented?

Which Greek words do you present as accurately stating that which is attributed to them, from my reference material?

I don’t think so, nor will any of the readers here.

I don’t know about you, but I get some things wrong sometimes and have go back and do some research. I would be both ignorant and egotistical if I did not examine what respected Christian theologians throughout the history of Christianity have written about the issue at hand.

I have studied in depth, the historical application of exegesis and humility as practiced by the teachers from the time of the Apostles, (other than the Apostles) and found them killing one another under the guise of Heresy. Even Paul the Apostle was guilty of this until his conversion.

And you think lessor men are better?

And I still have to interpret their writings. I know that every brain is imperfect and all of us have our biases. So I cannot fully trust even my own interpretations. Proverbs 3:5-6.

I do not interpret. I eliminate false interpretation from consideration, and publish what is left, that which is actually in the text.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

So then, why did Paul say it was
EVE who sinned first? (1 Tim 2:11-14) Isn't "First Sin" equivalent to "Original Sin?"

Of did I miss a class on the meaning of "Original?"



I believe I stated that quite clearly.



Ahh! I misjudged - a SCHOLAR are you?



And you think that is WRONG?

I'll tell you what I think is wrong;

When church leaders read scripture about
GOD and GOD alone, then apply it to themselves, well...figure it out.

(Psalm 111:9) "He sent redemption unto his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever: holy and (foberon) reverend is his name."

(Hebrews 10:31) "It is a (foberon) fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

Yet church leaders by the giga-millions identify their
OWN PERSON as "REVEREND."

They establish special clothing for the leaders, special privilege, special greetings, special places to sit in the assembly....

Not all do it all, but perhaps you get my point.

Do you know a preacher or minister who is not addressed as "Reverend" other than in the "Church of Christ?"



Exegesis.

Please tell me which Greek word you use to get "WAS" as the last word in John 17:5

Please tell me which Greek word you use to get "Jesus" in John 1:1 to develop the pre-existence of Jesus as God!



Not me. I take it to the soul, and meditate and pray over it, because much of it was speculation and false conclusion.

Did you know Clement & Tertullian referenced the
Phoenix, from Egyptian Fable, as proof of the Resurrection of Men?

TERTULLIAN AND CLEMENT REFERENCE THE PHOENIX FROM EGYPTIAN FABLE
[The Writings Of Tertullian (a.d.145-220); On The Resurrection Of The Flesh]

Chap.XIII From our author's view of a verse in the ninety second Psalm,[verse twelve, which references the "phoinix" which is a Palm Tree.] the phoenix is made a symbol of the resurrection of our bodies.

If however, all nature but faintly figures our resurrection; if creation affords no sign precisely like it

[Apostolic Fathers Vol.I - p.12]
[The First Epistle Of Clement (a.d.100-200) To The Corinthians]

"Let us consider that wonderful sign [of the resurrection] which takes place in Eastern lands, that is in Arabia and the countries round about."

"There is a certain bird which is called a Phoenix. This is the only one of its kind, and lives five hundred years. And when the time of its dissolution draws near that it must die, it builds itself a nest of frankincense, and myrrh, and other spices, into which, when the time is fulfilled, it enters and dies."

"But, as the flesh decays, a certain kind of worm is produced, which, being nourished by the juices of the dead bird, brings forth feathers."

"Then, when it has aquired strength, it takes up that nest in which are the bones of its parent, and bearing these it passes from the land of Arabia into Egypt, to the city called Heliopolis."

"And in open day, flying in the sight of all men, it places them on the altar of the sun, and having done this, hastens back to its former abode."

"The priests then inspect the registers of the dates, and find that it has returned exactly as the five hundredth year was completed."

"Do we then deem it any great and wonderful thing for the maker of all things to raise up again those that have piously served him in that assurance of faith, when even by a bird, he shows us the mightiness of his power to fulfill his promise?"

Yet it was one of the Clement's writings that express his understanding of who was considered to be GOD, CIRCA 96 A.D. Or, to put it another way, what was the doctrine of his day, as relates to a trinity?

PP-59. Let all the Gentiles know that YOU ARE GOD ALONE, [ho theos monos]

AND JESUS CHRIST IS YOUR SON,and we are your people and the sheep of your pasture.
(Apostolic Fathers P.36-37/82-83)




So which of my scripture references is falsely presented?

Which Greek words do you present as accurately stating that which is attributed to them, from my reference material?



I have studied in depth, the historical application of exegesis and humility as practiced by the teachers from the time of the Apostles, (other than the Apostles) and found them killing one another under the guise of Heresy. Even Paul the Apostle was guilty of this until his conversion.

And you think lessor men are better?



I do not interpret. I eliminate false interpretation from consideration, and publish what is left, that which is actually in the text.

No human being can avoid interpreting everything they see, hear, and read.

It is just that your interpretations are completely individualized, subjective, and based on your own "wisdom", not any understanding that other Christians can identify with. I leave you to your heresies. Keep patting yourself on the back for being smarter than everyone else.

Like scripture, we cannot receive the Gospel truth until someone presents it to us. This has been God’s plan from the beginning. “How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?” (Romans 10:14, NKJV)

Like it or not, the Holy Spirit used the Church to bring the Gospel to each of us. If it happened that we first read the Bible without a flesh-and-blood person presenting it, then we still must acknowledge that it was human beings who saved the words, translated the words into our language, published the book and put it where we could read it. The people who served in these capacities were part of the Church, the body of believers (inspired by the Holy Spirit) who have believed the Gospel of Christ and spread it throughout the world. The Church is inextricably associated with the scriptures as we have them. The scriptures became Canon in the early Church by the discernment and wisdom of third and fourth century believers, but I am happy to give the credit to God who accomplished this work through gifts of the Holy Spirit in these believers.

So our faith is associated with and dependent upon the faith of those who came before us. Here are some scriptures supporting church worship and fellowship:

For where two or three are gathered together in My name, there am I in the midst of them. (Matthew 18:20, KJV)

And they continued steadfastly in the Apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread and in prayers. (Acts 2:42)

And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching. (Hebrews 10:24-25)

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

No human being can avoid interpreting everything they see, hear, and read.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

error

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

So then, why did Paul say it was
EVE who sinned first? (1 Tim 2:11-14) Isn't "First Sin" equivalent to "Original Sin?"

Of did I miss a class on the meaning of "Original?"



I believe I stated that quite clearly.



Ahh! I misjudged - a SCHOLAR are you?



And you think that is WRONG?

I'll tell you what I think is wrong;

When church leaders read scripture about
GOD and GOD alone, then apply it to themselves, well...figure it out.

(Psalm 111:9) "He sent redemption unto his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever: holy and (foberon) reverend is his name."

(Hebrews 10:31) "It is a (foberon) fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

Yet church leaders by the giga-millions identify their
OWN PERSON as "REVEREND."

They establish special clothing for the leaders, special privilege, special greetings, special places to sit in the assembly....

Not all do it all, but perhaps you get my point.

Do you know a preacher or minister who is not addressed as "Reverend" other than in the "Church of Christ?"



Exegesis.

Please tell me which Greek word you use to get "WAS" as the last word in John 17:5

Please tell me which Greek word you use to get "Jesus" in John 1:1 to develop the pre-existence of Jesus as God!



Not me. I take it to the soul, and meditate and pray over it, because much of it was speculation and false conclusion.

Did you know Clement & Tertullian referenced the
Phoenix, from Egyptian Fable, as proof of the Resurrection of Men?

TERTULLIAN AND CLEMENT REFERENCE THE PHOENIX FROM EGYPTIAN FABLE
[The Writings Of Tertullian (a.d.145-220); On The Resurrection Of The Flesh]

Chap.XIII From our author's view of a verse in the ninety second Psalm,[verse twelve, which references the "phoinix" which is a Palm Tree.] the phoenix is made a symbol of the resurrection of our bodies.

If however, all nature but faintly figures our resurrection; if creation affords no sign precisely like it

[Apostolic Fathers Vol.I - p.12]
[The First Epistle Of Clement (a.d.100-200) To The Corinthians]

"Let us consider that wonderful sign [of the resurrection] which takes place in Eastern lands, that is in Arabia and the countries round about."

"There is a certain bird which is called a Phoenix. This is the only one of its kind, and lives five hundred years. And when the time of its dissolution draws near that it must die, it builds itself a nest of frankincense, and myrrh, and other spices, into which, when the time is fulfilled, it enters and dies."

"But, as the flesh decays, a certain kind of worm is produced, which, being nourished by the juices of the dead bird, brings forth feathers."

"Then, when it has aquired strength, it takes up that nest in which are the bones of its parent, and bearing these it passes from the land of Arabia into Egypt, to the city called Heliopolis."

"And in open day, flying in the sight of all men, it places them on the altar of the sun, and having done this, hastens back to its former abode."

"The priests then inspect the registers of the dates, and find that it has returned exactly as the five hundredth year was completed."

"Do we then deem it any great and wonderful thing for the maker of all things to raise up again those that have piously served him in that assurance of faith, when even by a bird, he shows us the mightiness of his power to fulfill his promise?"

Yet it was one of the Clement's writings that express his understanding of who was considered to be GOD, CIRCA 96 A.D. Or, to put it another way, what was the doctrine of his day, as relates to a trinity?

PP-59. Let all the Gentiles know that YOU ARE GOD ALONE, [ho theos monos]

AND JESUS CHRIST IS YOUR SON,and we are your people and the sheep of your pasture.
(Apostolic Fathers P.36-37/82-83)




So which of my scripture references is falsely presented?

Which Greek words do you present as accurately stating that which is attributed to them, from my reference material?



I have studied in depth, the historical application of exegesis and humility as practiced by the teachers from the time of the Apostles, (other than the Apostles) and found them killing one another under the guise of Heresy. Even Paul the Apostle was guilty of this until his conversion.

And you think lessor men are better?



I do not interpret. I eliminate false interpretation from consideration, and publish what is left, that which is actually in the text.

A true study of Bible interpretation (or any kind of interpretation or translation process) must include an evaluation of both epistemology and individual heuristics. We first must understand some basics about how humans learn and we must accept the reality that we individually interpret everything we perceive according to our unique perceptual and neurological processing equipment (our different brains) and according to our unique psychological make-up (different background environments, training, desires, and goals). Each individual cannot help but interpret everything he or she hears and reads in a very personal way, filtering it through a uniquely imperfect mind. The one who believes he is unbiased may be the most biased of all.

Although truth itself is objective and God’s revelation to us is eternal and absolute, how we receive it is very relative and individualized because it depends on many factors that vary from person to person. And we have not even mentioned all the potential linguistic problems. That we agree about anything at all is often more an artifact of social factors (such as wanting to agree with others) than about actually “seeing eye to eye” on what things mean. Given the realities associated with the differing and imperfect equipment through which we “know” anything, we must be very honest about our own fallibility in extracting the accurate meaning from any source of information.

Interpretation always depends upon the ability and experience of the interpreter, and only Jesus can interpret accurately all of the time. Therefore, when we read the scriptures, they are never fully self-interpreting.

Likewise, when we read the scholars’ exegesis and hermeneutical commentaries, we still must interpret what they are trying to communicate. We cannot avoid the task of interpreting the interpreters, the so-called experts. Since we cannot read their minds, we are always making our best guess as to what their words mean. There is no getting around the necessity for personal interpretation and the reality of our own fallibility in this task.
Humility is always in order.

 

[Theo Book]

A true study of Bible interpretation (or any kind of interpretation or translation process) must include an evaluation of both epistemology and individual heuristics. We first must understand some basics about how humans learn and we must accept the reality that we individually interpret everything we perceive according to our unique perceptual and neurological processing equipment (our different brains) and according to our unique psychological make-up (different background environments, training, desires, and goals). Each individual cannot help but interpret everything he or she hears and reads in a very personal way, filtering it through a uniquely imperfect mind. The one who believes he is unbiased may be the most biased of all.

Although truth itself is objective and God’s revelation to us is eternal and absolute, how we receive it is very relative and individualized because it depends on many factors that vary from person to person. And we have not even mentioned all the potential linguistic problems. That we agree about anything at all is often more an artifact of social factors (such as wanting to agree with others) than about actually “seeing eye to eye” on what things mean. Given the realities associated with the differing and imperfect equipment through which we “know” anything, we must be very honest about our own fallibility in extracting the accurate meaning from any source of information.

Interpretation always depends upon the ability and experience of the interpreter, and only Jesus can interpret accurately all of the time. Therefore, when we read the scriptures, they are never fully self-interpreting.

Likewise, when we read the scholars’ exegesis and hermeneutical commentaries, we still must interpret what they are trying to communicate. We cannot avoid the task of interpreting the interpreters, the so-called experts. Since we cannot read their minds, we are always making our best guess as to what their words mean. There is no getting around the necessity for personal interpretation and the reality of our own fallibility in this task.
Humility is always in order.

Faux humility gets in the way. For 2000 years we have been taught that the Scholars know; How could teachers from over 2000 years of research possibly be wrong? We must remain humble and listen to the scholars.

So I turned to the teachers to learn how to Exegete.

I was assigned a reading in Job, and when I exegeted the portion assigned, I was corrected to understand the "ORTHODOX" position.

I attempted to show why it was wrong, and as a result I never received my degree, because I dared to posit differently than "Orthodoxy."

The issue? The professor taught what His professor had taught 60 years earlier, which he had learned from His predecessor 40 years prior to that; that "The book of Job is about Human suffering."

Mathew's gospel has people who suffered more than Job, and without the advantages gained by Job in this world.

The book of Job will teach, if properly exegeted, that Job was the first to assert and demonstrate the need by Man, for a mediator. Four times his plaint is "Oh if I only had a man to speak on my behalf..."

I offered to write a paper displaying the issue, and was told "Say it the way you were taught, or no degree.

You guess the result of THAT!

Then I was taught by the teaching Exegetes, that the GREEK MIDDLE VERB is to be treated as an English Active, when exegeting and translating.

Well, that is just not so.

The truth of the MIDDLE VERB is that God utilized the Greek precisely BECAUSE it is one of the languages that has a middle verb, which God uses for PROPHECY.

Look at (Gen 17:4-5) to see this application;

Gen 17: 4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and (esee)(thou shalt be) a father of many nations.

God made a promise, and expressed it in prophecy, using an indicative future middle verb, because it could not be active, because it is future, and had not been done, it could not be passive for the same reason, but middle speaks to the issue, and in the next verse, address it as though it is done.

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

esee verb indicative future middle 2nd person singular form of eimi, be, exist;

Paul speaks thusly -
Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

That is why when the new testament tells of all the things Christians will do, middle verbs proliferate, because it is not the Christian who does it, it is God the Father, and His Holy Spirit that speaks.

And when a preacher preaches truth, it is not His own truth, it is God's truth spoken through that preacher, or minister. Therefore, middle verbs.

Which of the "Greek Grammars" speaks to this issue?

Check it out.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

Faux humility gets in the way. For 2000 years we have been taught that the Scholars know; How could teachers from over 2000 years of research possibly be wrong? We must remain humble and listen to the scholars.

So I turned to the teachers to learn how to Exegete.

I was assigned a reading in Job, and when I exegeted the portion assigned, I was corrected to understand the "ORTHODOX" position.

I attempted to show why it was wrong, and as a result I never received my degree, because I dared to posit differently than "Orthodoxy."

The issue? The professor taught what His professor had taught 60 years earlier, which he had learned from His predecessor 40 years prior to that; that "The book of Job is about Human suffering."

Mathew's gospel has people who suffered more than Job, and without the advantages gained by Job in this world.

The book of Job will teach, if properly exegeted, that Job was the first to assert and demonstrate the need by Man, for a mediator. Four times his plaint is "Oh if I only had a man to speak on my behalf..."

I offered to write a paper displaying the issue, and was told "Say it the way you were taught, or no degree.

You guess the result of THAT!

Then I was taught by the teaching Exegetes, that the GREEK MIDDLE VERB is to be treated as an English Active, when exegeting and translating.

Well, that is just not so.

The truth of the MIDDLE VERB is that God utilized the Greek precisely BECAUSE it is one of the languages that has a middle verb, which God uses for PROPHECY.

Look at (Gen 17:4-5) to see this application;

Gen 17: 4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and (esee)(thou shalt be) a father of many nations.

God made a promise, and expressed it in prophecy, using an indicative future middle verb, because it could not be active, because it is future, and had not been done, it could not be passive for the same reason, but middle speaks to the issue, and in the next verse, address it as though it is done.

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

esee verb indicative future middle 2nd person singular form of eimi, be, exist;

Paul speaks thusly -
Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

That is why when the new testament tells of all the things Christians will do, middle verbs proliferate, because it is not the Christian who does it, it is God the Father, and His Holy Spirit that speaks.

And when a preacher preaches truth, it is not His own truth, it is God's truth spoken through that preacher, or minister. Therefore, middle verbs.

Which of the "Greek Grammars" speaks to this issue?

Check it out.

I did not need to get very far in your comment to realize the real issue.
"Faux humility gets in the way." This is always what narcissists say. They value no authority above their own perception of things, and will interpret the scriptures (always) according to what pleases them. There is in fact no humility. Thank you for showing us all what that looks like.

 

[Theo Book]

I did not need to get very far in your comment to realize the real issue.

The "real issue" is really very simple; I asked you which Greek word you use to get "Was" in John 17:5.

I again asked you which Greek word you used to get another mistranslation.

Then I proceeded to enquire of other wrong interpretation/translations; you ignored it all, to sling insults and innuendoes.

You have shown yourself to be a "Scholar" true to the fault of scholarship.

Scholars always gain the title of scholar by following exactly what their teachers teach them, with no regard for the truth, only interested in what will get them that "degree" that reflects scholarship.

[QUOTE="Dr Bruce Atkinson, post: 70892567, member:
"Faux humility gets in the way." This is always what narcissists say. [/quote]

I wouldn't know. I do not spend much time among them.

[QUOTE="Dr Bruce Atkinson, post: 70892567, member:]
They value no authority above their own perception of things, and will interpret the scriptures (always) according to what pleases them.
[/quote]

You missed it on that one. I always seek the original meaning from the scripture itself, and the English translations are not the originals.

[QUOTE="Dr Bruce Atkinson, post: 70892567, member: There is in fact no humility.

Well, at least not among scholars, who spend a great deal of time asking "What are your credentials; what have you published that has been peer reviewed?"

It becomes a race to see who can attain the highest degree instead of finding the deepest truth.

[QUOTE="Dr Bruce Atkinson, post: 70892567, member: Thank you for showing us all what that looks like.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for showing what YOU really are.