Why did God afflict Job?

liferiver

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Excellent didaskalos. Shedded light.

I'd to take the bogus idea of Satan asking God for permission before doing something to another passage of scripture.

Luke 22:31-32 NKJV

And the Lord said, "Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren."

The puzzling thing is:

why did Satan have to asked (presumably from our Lord) for simon since he already had permission? In this case, Satan did not ask our Lord to afflict Simon.

Another interesting observation: and our Lord prayed for simon instead of forbidding Satan to sieve simon. That throws out the idea that our Lord can do whatever He wants.

Will appreciate light.

PS. Hold your big guns: I'm just a truth seeker. Not proving or disproving anything. If I don't belong or fit into the beliefs of this forum, will leave immediately.
 
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Tennisplayer

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A lot of great insight here! I've never thought of how when our Saviour was speaking to Peter about his conversation with satan......he did not rebuke Satan...he did not bind Satan....he did not cast out Satan......he didn't even respond to him for all we know. Instead...he prays for Peter to have faith! Wow, in our WOF movement, I think many of us, including myself would be quick to rebuking Satan instead of stand strong in our faith! We are quick to deal with Satan, instead of ourselves and our own faith.

So, with that in mind. Do you think the story of Job would have taken a completely different turn if Job would have acknowledged and confessed his sin of fear to the Lord, asked for forgiveness for this fear and his constant sacrificing for his children, and stood tall in faith instead?
 
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In light of Job 3:25, I can't argue that God is to blame for Job's sufferings, but rather, he is. By choosing to walk in fear, Job invited his own disaster upon himself, though probably unknowingly did he this. This is a stern warning to any who would choose to live a life of fear and dread over faith and trust.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Excellent didaskalos. Shedded light.

I'd to take the bogus idea of Satan asking God for permission before doing something to another passage of scripture.

Luke 22:31-32 NKJV

And the Lord said, "Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren."

The puzzling thing is:

why did Satan have to asked (presumably from our Lord) for simon since he already had permission? In this case, Satan did not ask our Lord to afflict Simon.

Another interesting observation: and our Lord prayed for simon instead of forbidding Satan to sieve simon. That throws out the idea that our Lord can do whatever He wants.

Will appreciate light.

PS. Hold your big guns: I'm just a truth seeker. Not proving or disproving anything. If I don't belong or fit into the beliefs of this forum, will leave immediately.
This kind of bothered me too.

Robertson sheds some light here that the word "asked" is not really what is meant:


Luk 22:31
Asked to have you (exēitēsato). First aorist indirect middle indicative of exaiteō, an old verb to beg something of one and (middle) for oneself. Only here in the N.T. The verb is used either in the good or the bad sense, but it does not mean here "obtained by asking" as margin in Revised Version has it.


JBF also alludes to some irregularty:

Luk 22:31-34
Simon, Simon
— (See on Luk_10:41).
desired to have - rather, "hath obtained you," properly "asked and obtained"; alluding to Job (Job_1:6-12; Job_2:1-6), whom he solicited and obtained that he might sift him as wheat, insinuating as "the accuser of the brethren" (Rev_12:10), that he would find chaff enough in his religion, if indeed there was any wheat at all.
you — not Peter only, but them all.


Several versions use a more specific term, "desired":


(KJV) And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

(MKJV) And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has desired you, that he may sift you as wheat.

(DRB)
And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat.

(Murdock) And Jesus said to Simon: Simon, lo, Satan hath desired to sift thee, as wheat:

(Webster) And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

Also note that the "you" in the verse is plural, meaning Satan "desired" all of the apostles, not just Simon.


Desire and ask are not the samething.
I desire ice cream... that does not mean I am going to get it or even that I actually asked for it. I think that Jesus is merely telling them that satan wants them because they were debating who was the greatest among them. He knew what satan wanted, but that does not mean satan actually asked for it.

IMHO


 
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liferiver

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So, with that in mind. Do you think the story of Job would have taken a completely different turn if Job would have acknowledged and confessed his sin of fear to the Lord, asked for forgiveness for this fear and his constant sacrificing for his children, and stood tall in faith instead?

This is a big question -- one that I do not feel adequate to answer. One question looming is: Does satan need an open door of some sort (like sin, fear... etc) to attack Job? If the answer is Yes, then I would think Job will not have been afflicted. That's what I believe.

If, on the other hand, if we argue by virtue of Satan having God's given authority (which was abdicated by Adam when he fell), he can do whatever he likes, then I think the story will not turn.

But Book of Job is a tough beast. I've lots of questions here. For example, the book of Job is the oldest book in the bible. I'm not sure what dispensation is Job living in. I don't think even think he was living under the law. If he was under the law, I'll argue that judgement and evil follows after the sin and rather swiftly.

It also seems the patriarchs, like Abraham, Issac, Jacob (pre law people) seems not be afflicted by sin, even when there is sin, as compared to those after the Law was given.

And it's also interesting to note that the first mention of Satan in the bible, was mentioned in book of chronicles, during the time of Law.

But I think it's important to note and the most importantly, that we're in Christ. Seated with Him in heavenly places far above every principality and we're not under the law. We're protected by the blood of Jesus. We're blessed people and our Father is for us. So Satan cannot just afflict us like he did to people in old testament. So the next questions why believers in Christ suffer? Suffer for righteousness? Becos of sin? Becos of imperfections of world? I think that's another big question.

Wow, in our WOF movement, I think many of us, including myself would be quick to rebuking Satan instead of stand strong in our faith! We are quick to deal with Satan, instead of ourselves and our own faith.

I spent about 5 years in charismatic/Pentecostal church another 7 years in word of faith church of which I'm still in but more recently have fellowshipped with a few Evangelical friends. I guess categorically speaking (there're exceptions), we tend to rebuke the devil, speak to mountain... etc and not like suffering stuff. Evangelicals tend to see suffering as something with redeeming value (such as character building) and in some extreme cases, some even attributing extreme stuff (like sickness and diseases) to our heavenly Father. I think that's a distortion of our goodness of our Heavenly Father. But aside from that gross distortion, there's some truth in this character building stuff. But again, that's just my opinion.

I'll invoke the word mystery. :) The secret things of the Lord belong to Him. (deu 29:29). Suffering is one of those things...
 
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liferiver

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That makes sense and is very consistent with the character and nature of our Father! Thank you!


This kind of bothered me too.

Robertson sheds some light here that the word "asked" is not really what is meant:


Luk 22:31
Asked to have you (exēitēsato). First aorist indirect middle indicative of exaiteō, an old verb to beg something of one and (middle) for oneself. Only here in the N.T. The verb is used either in the good or the bad sense, but it does not mean here "obtained by asking" as margin in Revised Version has it.


JBF also alludes to some irregularty:

Luk 22:31-34
Simon, Simon
— (See on Luk_10:41).
desired to have - rather, "hath obtained you," properly "asked and obtained"; alluding to Job (Job_1:6-12; Job_2:1-6), whom he solicited and obtained that he might sift him as wheat, insinuating as "the accuser of the brethren" (Rev_12:10), that he would find chaff enough in his religion, if indeed there was any wheat at all.
you — not Peter only, but them all.


Several versions use a more specific term, "desired":


(KJV) And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

(MKJV) And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has desired you, that he may sift you as wheat.

(DRB)
And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat.

(Murdock) And Jesus said to Simon: Simon, lo, Satan hath desired to sift thee, as wheat:

(Webster) And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

Also note that the "you" in the verse is plural, meaning Satan "desired" all of the apostles, not just Simon.


Desire and ask are not the samething.
I desire ice cream... that does not mean I am going to get it or even that I actually asked for it. I think that Jesus is merely telling them that satan wants them because they were debating who was the greatest among them. He knew what satan wanted, but that does not mean satan actually asked for it.

IMHO


 
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