Why Crackers and Grape Juice?

Loren T. · Sep 16, 2018

Alcohol abuse is a huge problem. As someone who doesn't drink at all, it's tempting to point the finger at Christians who drink a bit. But, abuse of pain killers is also rampant. Abuse of guns, abuse of food, abuse of sex, we could go on and on about the terrible effect all these have on people. But in each case, the problem is wrong use of something that is not evil in itself.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 16, 2018

But alcohol is technically a poison and it has been scientifically proven in a study that it shrinks the brain even with moderate use.

Alcohol is a drug and it is not even a food.
It offers no nutritional value and your immune system has to actually work to fight off it's harmful effects.

It has just been accepted by society as being normal and so that makes it alright. But it is not right.

We do not have a liberty to drink small amounts of rat poison anymore than we do to drink the poisonous substance of alcohol.

gordonhooker · Sep 16, 2018

AnnaDeborah said:
The only way of accommodating such people if you are using alcoholic wine is to offer them a separate cup of grape juice or similar. This can be really isolating. If you are an alcoholic, there is also the risk that the smell of alcohol could trigger cravings, even if you don't actually drink it.

I'm not able to take alcohol in any quantity due to medical reasons. Accidently ingesting the amount contained in an individual communion cup would involve me being blue-lighted to hospital. I attended one church that started using alcoholic wine and I had to go to a small side table to receive a glass of orange squash instead! Half the time, the person preparing forgot to put it out for me, and then I'd end up standing there like a lemon while they rushed round to find a spare glass and something to put in it. I ended up missing communion services because I felt like some kind of outcast. Apparently, the reason for the change was that some people in the leadership team liked the taste of alcoholic wine better...

I have been a Sacristan for a number of years and when I know we will have people in the congregation who have special dietary requirements I cater for them without making it obvious to others present. When we are not aware before hand the person will simply be offered the chalice but they do not drink.
There is always an inclusive way around everything without making the exception obvious.

gordonhooker · Sep 16, 2018

Loren T. said:
I'm not a drinker, but I have always found this ironic, too. In churches where a glass of wine would be practically a mortal sin, many of the people are terribly overweight. When was the last time you heard a sermon on gluttony?

Gold Loren, pure gold!

Dave-W · Sep 17, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
Probably because the Bible belt group does not want to offer wine that challenges those who are or were alcoholics.

Many have a doctrine that it is a major sin to ingest any amount of alcohol, even if one is not an alky.

It is perfectly permissible to use unfermented grape juice, as the custom of passover allowed for that. The traditional blessing over the wine cups says "fruit of the vine" and not alcoholic wine specifically.

Dave-W · Sep 17, 2018

FireDragon76 said:
In most cultures there's no such thing as "gluten-free bread" that would resemble what we think of as leavened bread: light, spongy stuff that you cut in slices to make a sandwich.

Again, it would have been unleavened bread - matzah - at the last supper.

Paidiske · Sep 17, 2018

Well... it's not permissible to all of us, actually. My tradition requires specifically "fermented juice of the grape."

Dorothy Mae · Sep 17, 2018

Dave-W said:
Many have a doctrine that it is a major sin to ingest any amount of alcohol, even if one is not an alky.

It is perfectly permissible to use unfermented grape juice, as the custom of passover allowed for that. The traditional blessing over the wine cups says "fruit of the vine" and not alcoholic wine specifically.

It is highly unlikely unfermented grape juice keeps long enough to have been used as a drink. Refrigerated it lasts 7- 10 days so one can it was impossible for the poor to have used unfermented grape juice. Ergo, they drank wine. Grape juice doesn’t keep.

Afra · Sep 17, 2018

Phil 1:21 said:
If a person is hung up on the composition of the elements, they're missing the point.

By this faulty logic, we could use a cheeseburger and ginger ale as long as we get "the point." Or we could simply eliminate communion all together except for a few rare instances, as many churches do. Anything goes as long as we get "the point."

ArmenianJohn · Sep 17, 2018

Jason0047 said:
General Alcohol Statistics:

Alcohol poisoning kills six people every day. Of those, 76 percent are adults ages 35-64, and three of every four people killed by alcohol poisoning are men.

The group with the most alcohol poisoning deaths per million people is American Indians/Alaska Natives (49.1 per 1 million).

Alcohol-impaired driving accounts for more than 30 percent of all driving fatalities each year.

More than 15 million people struggle with an alcohol use disorder in the United States, but less than eight percent of those receive treatment.

More than 65 million Americans report binge drinking in the past month, which is more than 40 percent of the total of current alcohol users.

Teen alcohol use kills 4,700 people each year. That’s more than all illegal drugs combined.
Drunk driving costs the United States $199 billion every year.

Kids who start drinking young are seven times more likely to be in an alcohol-related motor vehicle accident.

Source:
https://talbottcampus.com/alcoholism-statistics/

RESULTS:
The leading causes of death in 2000 were tobacco (435 000 deaths; 18.1% of total US deaths), poor diet and physical inactivity (365 000 deaths; 15.2%) [corrected], and alcohol consumption (85 000 deaths; 3.5%). Other actual causes of death were microbial agents (75 000), toxic agents (55 000), motor vehicle crashes (43 000), incidents involving firearms (29 000), sexual behaviors (20 000), and illicit use of drugs (17 000).

CONCLUSIONS:
These analyses show that smoking remains the leading cause of mortality. However, poor diet and physical inactivity may soon overtake tobacco as the leading cause of death. These findings, along with escalating health care costs and aging population, argue persuasively that the need to establish a more preventive orientation in the US health care and public health systems has become more urgent.

Source:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?cmd=search&term=15010446

To be concerned about alcohol while ignoring the BIGGER PROBLEM (FAR BIGGER) of poor diet and inactivity (which includes sugar/diabetes) is either ignorant of reality (see figures above) or intentionally biased based on other reasons.

I have no problem with anti-alcohol types if they are legitimate in their concern. The problem is that those are always the same people who care far more about alcohol while completely ignoring the problem of poor diet. This is why those same people will encourage people to have a poor diet (i.e. consume pure sugar in the form of grape juice) instead of consuming alcohol despite the former being the bigger problem affecting far more people than the latter.

The anti-alcohol agenda proves time and again to be based on irrationally religious-based biases and not on facts.

AnnaDeborah · Sep 18, 2018

ArmenianJohn said:
This is why those same people will encourage people to have a poor diet (i.e. consume pure sugar in the form of grape juice) instead of consuming alcohol despite the former being the bigger problem affecting far more people than the latter.

Can I ask how much people typically drink at a communion service in your church? Because in my church, we probably drink a max of 2-3 teaspoons of liquid per person per communion. Unless you are taking communion several times a day, this quantity can't really be considered as encouraging someone to have a poor diet.

FireDragon76 · Sep 18, 2018

I think ArmenianJohn's point is that the perception that alcohol is a major problem is more of a matter of cultural conditioning.

AnnaDeborah · Sep 18, 2018

FireDragon76 said:
I think ArmenianJohn's point is that the perception that alcohol is a major problem is more of a matter of cultural conditioning.

I'm not sure it is - in the church anyway. I've found a very interesting split in reactions when people find I can't drink. Non Christians either just say 'ok' or they might express mild interest, e.g. "Is that for religious reasons?" "Do you mind me asking why?" or "Does it bother you if I drink?" I've never yet had a negative response from a non believer. But saying the same thing to Christians...oh my! "How DARE you be so self-righteous and judgemental?" "WHO do you think you are?" "You're a hypocrite!" "There is NOTHING wrong with a Christian drinking." "How DARE you accuse me of drinking too much!"... etc, etc, etc. As the old saying goes, 'you howl when you hurt'. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but the way so many Christians completely lose control and start screaming and shouting at me just because I said 'no thank you' to a glass of wine does make me wonder how many Christians have a huge problem with alcohol that they just can't acknowledge.

Mountainmanbob · Sep 18, 2018

I don't even drink alcohol anymore but, when taking communion at church I prefer bread with real wine.
M-Bob

Paidiske · Sep 18, 2018

Jason0047 said:
For the minute you take a sip, you are less sober minded then the moment you were before.

That's really not true. You have to consume enough alcohol for it to raise the concentration in your blood to a level which affects your brain function. A sip - even of fortified wine - is not going to do that.

It is possible to get tipsy on communion wine, but not at the volumes most communicants consume. It's more of an issue when dealing with what is left over after everyone has communed.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 18, 2018

Paidiske said:
That's really not true. You have to consume enough alcohol for it to raise the concentration in your blood to a level which affects your brain function. A sip - even of fortified wine - is not going to do that.

It is possible to get tipsy on communion wine, but not at the volumes most communicants consume. It's more of an issue when dealing with what is left over after everyone has communed.

I see tipsy as not being sober minded.

When I used to drink, I remember getting tipsy (and feeling almost drunk) at sipping just one white Russian. I was not a petite person, either. I was saying things that I normally would not say.

Why do you think they call alcohol as spirits?
Because other spirits can influence you because you are less sober minded.

A person's blood alcohol level effects their judgment on some level.

When alcohol is in your system, it affects how quickly you’re able to respond to different situations. Drinking slows your response time, which can increase the likelihood of an accident while driving. Therefore, if the car in front of you brakes suddenly or a pedestrian crosses the street, it will take longer for your brain to process the situation and prevent an accident. A person will be under DUI if they are a commercial driver at just .04%. If you are petite 100 pound person, you can possibly fail the test and get a DUI by just having one drink and then driving.

See the chart here:
https://www.tabc.state.tx.us/publications/brochures/BACCharts.pdf

Other Sources Used:
https://www.alcoholrehabguide.org/alcohol/crimes/dui/
DUI & DWI Laws & Enforcement | DMV.ORG

Paidiske · Sep 18, 2018

But communion isn't anywhere near "one drink." An average communicant consumes 5mL of wine. (I know this by working backwards; on average you need one metric cup - 250mL - for a congregation of 50 people).

Fortified wine sits at 18% alcohol content. So that means you're consuming - on average - 0.9mL of alcohol in that one sip.

Now, the lowest level of intoxication with some measurable impact on the brain is 0.02% of alcohol in the blood, and the average adult has a bit more than 4.5L of blood (more like 4.7L, but let's keep the calculations neat).

So, one sip of communion wine - 0.9mL of alcohol - in 4.5L of blood, gives you a BAC of 0.002% (and that's assuming all of the alcohol is absorbed into the bloodstream, but in reality not all of it would be); a whole order of magnitude lower than what can measurably affect the brain (and again, that's underestimating your blood volume).

One sip is not enough to affect your judgement.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 18, 2018

However, let's say a new believer is baptized and becomes a member of your church. While an unbeliever, he continuously abused drugs and alcohol. Upon becoming a Christian, he vowed to the Lord that he would never use drugs or alcohol ever again. The church (of which he is now a member) uses wine as a part of the Lord's Supper. What happens if this person stumbles back into alcoholism because of their use of alcoholic wine in the Lord's supper? What should the elders think, say or do at this point? Should they continue to use alcohol in the Lord's supper knowing it could make more alcoholics to potentially stumble again?

FireDragon76 · Sep 18, 2018

Jason0047 said:
However, let's say a new believer is baptized and becomes a member of your church. While an unbeliever, he continuously abused drugs and alcohol. Upon becoming a Christian, he vowed to the Lord that he would never use drugs or alcohol ever again. The church (of which he is now a member) uses wine as a part of the Lord's Supper. What happens if this person stumbles back into alcoholism because of their use of alcoholic wine in the Lord's supper? What should the elders think, say or do at this point? Should they continue to use alcohol in the Lord's supper knowing it could make more alcoholics to potentially stumble again?

We try to accommodate peoples needs but at the end of the day, it's a sacred rite or sacrament. Grape juice isn't exactly the same as wine, and without a clear biblical instruction that it is an acceptable subtsitute, churches do not err if they only use wine.

Not David · Sep 18, 2018

FireDragon76 said:
We try to accommodate peoples needs but at the end of the day, it's a sacred rite or sacrament. Grape juice isn't exactly the same as wine, and without a clear biblical instruction that it is an acceptable subtsitute, churches do not err if they only use wine.

Well, those who believe Communion is symbolical might not care that much because it's the "symbol what it counts".

Why Crackers and Grape Juice?

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