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Why claim that ALL death began with Adam's sin & not just human death?

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by MrsLurking, Mar 3, 2013.

  1. MrsLurking

    MrsLurking Retired Biblical scholar; Verysincere's wife.

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    I've never understood why many creationists think that no animal died (and some even say no plants died) prior to Adam's sin. Where do they get that idea? All of the Bible passages which deal with the topic are clearly referring to death among the lineage of Adam. (Sin brought death---but never does it link that sin and death to animals as well.)

    I've heard some creationists claim that a creation engineered with death in it could not be "very good". Why not? How is not death and decay and the recycling of nutrients NOT an excellent ecological system? And how do they imagine "be fruitful and multiply" could go on for long without using up all resources if death never controlled it.

    Even in English, "good" has a great many definitions in the lexicon so why pretend that it only means "perfect". And why isn't a balanced ecosystem of birth and death "perfect"?

    Do creationists believe that in the original creation the animals were to multiply until saturation of the environment was achieved and then that species would stop multiplying? Or was some miracle planned that would allow this "perfect" creation to continue multiplying but without death?

    Makes no sense. Why not stay with what the Biblical text actually says and not add things just because tradition demands it?
     
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  2. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE Supporter

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    Because no animal died prior to Adam's sin.
    Adam sinned before before any animals died. In fact, God took the life of the very first thing that died. What a fitting way to portray the Gospel message, eh?
    I wouldn't worry about it, if I were you.
    Do you consider the death of anyone 'very good'?
    Get the door, it's Thomas Malthus.
    Ask the widow of Zarephath.
    In the Bible, "perfect" means "complete."
    Ask Klebold & Harris.
    I do.
    I doubt it.
    That's probably because you're looking at it through the eyes of a Thomas Malthus.

    Don't bring his garbage into Genesis 1 and try and make it fit, then expect us to agree.
    I have a better idea, how about you show us something that died prior to the Fall; rather than expect us to drop basic doctrine because someone can't make any sense out of it?
     
  3. TheReasoner

    TheReasoner Former christian, current teapot agnostic.

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    I take it as a modern day case of excessive comfort focus. A belief that discomfort - which includes physical death - is intrinsically bad.
     
  4. juvenissun

    juvenissun ... and God saw that it was good.

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    If you die, your knowledge and experience also vanished. Is that good?
     
  5. Mr Strawberry

    Mr Strawberry Newbie

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    Well, Juve, old chap, in your case there might be persuasive arguments that it was for the best. I couldn't possibly comment on that though, obviously.
     
  6. MrsLurking

    MrsLurking Retired Biblical scholar; Verysincere's wife.

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    OK. The food that Adam and Eve ate. Whenever you eat, you are participating in the cycle of life and death. Or are you going to tell us that nobody ate anything prior to Adam's sin?

    As to your other bizarre claims, I'd rather focus on what the Bible actually states and push aside all of the fabrications of tradition and your own imagination.
     
  7. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE Supporter

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    Adam & Eve didn't eat animals at the time. You might call them 'vegetarians,' but that's stretching it.
    No humans or animals died before the Fall.
    Plants are an exception.
    I've seen enough of your 'focus on what the Bible actually states,' and I'm not interested.
     
  8. MrsLurking

    MrsLurking Retired Biblical scholar; Verysincere's wife.

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    Originally Posted by MrsLurking:
    I've never understood why many creationists think that no animal died (and some even say no plants died) prior to Adam's sin.
    Originally Posted by MrsLurking:
    Where do they get that idea?

    CF Readers,

    Is this AV guy for real? I keep asking him for WHY he makes various claims---and his reply is simply "Because this is my claim." I ask him "What is the evidence that X is true?" and he replies, "Because of the fact that X is true." So I try, "Why do you believe X is true?" and he says, "Because X is true." Is this guy playing the Poe game?

    I notice that he also cites Bible proof-texts which say nothing to support his claims---but that could simply be that he doesn't understand what he reads, especially when he is dealing with KJV passages. (They clearly stump him, such as when he tried to pulled "embedded age" out of Genesis 2:7. Bizarre!)

    But I'm getting the strong impression that AV1611VET is simply pulling my leg as part of a prank. I'm new to CF. Is this some sort of initiation joke that you play on new participants? (I'm acquainted with his strange claims. But there has to be more at work here.)

    [And no. I do have a sense of humor and am willing to take a prank. I just want to know. And most of my Christian friends are young earth creationists so I do NOT like to see them parodied in cruel ways.]
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2013
  9. QueSi

    QueSi Well-Known Member

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    So God killed Able?
     
  10. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE Supporter

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    It's popcorn time! :)
     
  11. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE Supporter

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    Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
     
  12. QueSi

    QueSi Well-Known Member

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    How does that prove that God killed anything?
     
  13. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE Supporter

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    It's what we believe. We refer to it as "basic doctrine."
     
  14. QueSi

    QueSi Well-Known Member

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    Could God have created them without killing anything?
     
  15. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE Supporter

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    Yes, but as I said, it is a portrayal (hint) of the Gospel message.
     
  16. QueSi

    QueSi Well-Known Member

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    I would have to disagree, Jesus never advocated killing.
     
  17. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE Supporter

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    Jesus never advocated murder.

    And if you think Jesus is some kind of pacifist, then you don't know the book of Revelation, do you?
     
  18. QueSi

    QueSi Well-Known Member

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    I've read through it, but yes I do believe Jesus was a pacifist. I choose to believe God is loving and caring. God is good.
     
  19. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE Supporter

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    Amen! :thumbsup:
     
  20. juvenissun

    juvenissun ... and God saw that it was good.

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    Your three questions are actually one. No wonder you get the same answer.
    If you don't ask why and don't ask for evidence, can you still question?
     
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