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Islam Why Christians Convert to Islam

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Al Masihi, Jun 3, 2020.

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  1. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    While reading a Shi’a forum I came upon a Christian who claimed to have left Christianity and is now considering Islam, as I was reading through his thread I’m noticing a problem he has with Christians rather then Christianity itself. I posted a reply to his thread since guests can respond to posts, but it still hasn’t gone through and I’m not sure it will since the mods over there frequently delete any posts I make there. Here’s his post, I’m not sure I can post the link to another forum here, otherwise I’ll just post the actual text from his post, anyways here’s the link:

    https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235066823-ive-formally-left-christianity/

    I’m noticing people converting to Islam from Christianity usually give no good doctrinal reasons for converting, rather there’s usually a personal reason for converting such as this person’s frustration with liberalism taking over Christianity in the West, but I think he makes reasonable points Christians in the Western world need to really address the issues he brings up.
     
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  2. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

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    Reading that post, I really got the feeling the man was living in some place like England where the average Christian is much more likely to be nominal or a "Cultural Christian", AKA "Christian in name only" basically. His list of intellectual reasons was kind of standard, I did very much take note of him, saying, "I once had a Muslim I barely knew tell me he would fly 2000 miles that night to meet with me and say the shahaadah. I've NEVER had a Christian express such a sentiment, I know this guy meant it."

    Now some of his objections like on the Trinity could have been easily addressed at least if he is somewhat willing. e.g. him joining a Christian web site, buying a good book etc. That is if he was somewhat willing to entertain the concept that God is a complex metaphysical entity, kind of like that Sufi parable of the 8 blind-men and the elephant....
     
  3. lsume

    lsume Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don’t think that some who have considered Islam are aware of their beliefs towards Christ. They do not believe that He is The Only Begotten Son of God. That is an antichrist belief. There have been many conversations from Islam to Christ. In about 80% of those conversations, they were visited by Christ in either a vision or Spiritual Dream.
     
  4. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    Interesting post. I don't know if Forum rules allow me to quote his arguments. I will, and if my post is deleted, I will learn not do this in the future. :)

    > 1. Inconsistency when it comes to sin: While we can forgive the libertine and profligate, or even the violent man, we cannot forgive the traitor, the liar, the racist, or the one who embarrasses us, the one who demands closer understanding and attention. Nuance is something alien to modern pastoral efforts. <

    This is a misunderstanding of Christianity. All sinners can be forgiven, if they repent. Not valid.

    > 2. The church does not want to exalt God: The church wants acceptance from society, and the imprimatur of our political officials. In order to expand its reach and influence, it has tacitly absorbed inimical ideas like ethical relativism, radical egalitarianism (Jesus was not egalitarian), or same-sex marriage. <

    This is not a criticism for Christianity but for a liberal faction within Christianity. Not valid.

    > There are sects within the evangelical church which have embraced liberation theology, and toss around terms like “social justice” and “white privilege”. And this is done, not out of adherence to scriptural principles, but in order for the church to be fashionable and acceptable. These are innovations and perversions. <

    I'm guilty as charged and am proud to promote "social justice" and to oppose white supremacist ideas (and black supremacist ideas and yellow supremacist ideas). Does he want to convert to Islam bec it promotes Muslim supremacist ideas?

    > 3. Basic theological problems regarding the Trinity and other issues--none of which have been worked out. <

    I'm guilty as charged and I think we will continue to lose people to Atheism, Buddhism, and Islam for as long as we insist on a doctrine that the majority of Christians cannot understand. We cannot ask people to drown themselves in books and investigate the subject. God is One. And this is what has always been the bottomline in Christianity what nobody should be confused about.

    > 4. The "feel-good" nature of modern Christianity which does not challenge me, or demand anything from me. There is no sacrifice, no struggle, and no risk. It is passive, shallow, and directionless. <

    Again, this is not a valid criticism of Christianity but rather of liberal and of TV Christianity.

    The most interesting observation is that the writer did not mention a single positive thing about Islam except that he once had a Muslim he barely knew tell him he would fly 2000 miles that night to meet with him and say the shahaadah! Is this it?

    Why would a Christian convert to Islam?

    My take is that, for the most part, it is related to sex and / or money. They convert to Islam to get married to a Muslim or to get money from a Muslim organization.

    A minority of cases, like the writer of this post, may convert out of misunderstanding of Christianity. Islam's principle tenets are simple and straight-forward bec they're man-made. A few do's and dont's and you're all set for the terror of the grave.

    Simplicity is a real advantages for Islam. Like all man-made religions it has a good who is Akbar: bigger, greater, stronger than other gods. But Christianity is very strange. It has a God who is Love. Christianity has a God who became man and suffered death to save mankind. The difficulty in accepting Christianity does not come as a surprise to the Lord Jesus who said:

    Joh 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2020
  5. Randy777

    Randy777 Well-Known Member

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    He doesn't know or believe in the Jesus of the NT. A Jesus who came from above and speaks the words of above. A Jesus whose kingdom is not of this world. A Jesus who was crucified and resurrected and ascended to where He was before. Those who listen and learn from the Father go to Jesus.

    No one who has the Spirit of Christ in them denies the Son. They hear His voice and can't be deceived away from Him.
     
  6. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That was exactly what I was thinking while reading this post, you don’t convert to a faith because it’s adherents are nice people, if that was so then a lot of us should be Bhuddists or Jainists. I myself was invited to feast and offered a seat next to a major Bishop in the Syriac Orthodox Church after expressing my intent to convert, that was after I had just walked in and all they knew was my name, no Imam or Muslim sheikh ever treated me even remotely as nice as that. I actually told him to come in these forums and find me here and I would be happy to explain the Trinity to him, most of the objections he would have on the Trinity are most likely what he thinks the Trinity is not the actual doctrine itself, I once explained the Trinity in detail to a Muslim and he actually admitted to me that he could find no problems in it, but he still won’t convert to Christianity because there is no Trinity in the Quran and he doesn’t want to convert. An Islamic scholar and Philosper by the name of Timothy Winter admitted in an interview somewhere on YouTube that he has no theological nor logical objections to the Orthodox doctrine of the Trinity, he just thinks that there’s little textual evidence for it and that it somehow blocks or bars one’s relationship with God in a negative way (somehow he never explained how that was the case).
     
  7. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I did mention in a reply that I hope will actually get through and not be deleted by the mods that that’s a criticism of Christians not actual Christianity.

    If people aren’t willing to actually look into their own beliefs, then it’s their own fault not the doctrines themselves. Literally everyone I’ve ever met who had a problem with the Trinity including former Christians end up having zero knowledge on it, that’s your fault not the doctrine’s fault. There is one God in essence that is in three divine Hypostases. It took me two years to get a proper understanding of the Trinity and I’m still learning and I’m proud and happy to be learning about it even still.

    Agreed.

    I’ve seen countless converts to Islam especially from the West and Western World who’ve never given one convincing doctrinal or theological reason they chose Islam.

    I wouldn’t say that’s always the case, it’s usually a case with women as there are more women that convert to Islam than men statistically most probably due to marriage. This fellow on the other hand seems to have been let down by the Christian community, I don’t live in a liberal society hence I live in a conservative society, it’s probably one of the only benefits from living in an Islamic country, but I can understand how hard it is to retain your faith while being conservative while a large part of the church you hold dear is becoming extremely liberal in both practices and theology.

    Islam is only simple at surface level, it is however complex beyond imagining once you simply pierce the surface, I find all schisms in Christianity easier to understand than the disputes in Islam. If he became a Muslim because of how simple is, then he will be really let down once he comes to know the issues in Islam. Ranging from the dispute over whether God is a physical being, the Quran being created or not, the dispute of the traditionalists and philosophers, and make recently you have the Sola Quranist Muslims who have their own major and growing following, Islam when you look at it in detail is more complicated, then Christianity. Also that is a Shiite forum and I think he mentioned Iranian Muslims somewhere, if he has an issue with the complexity of Christianity, then Shi’a Islam is definitely not for him, it’s even debatable whether Shi’a Islam is even Monotheistic or not since there are many Shi’a sources that describe Ali and Mohammed himself including other members of his Ahl Al Bayt in divine aspects. Not to mention the Gnostic/Mystic character of Shi’a Islam and its theological issues. If he has an issue with the Trinity being complex, then I must really say that I’m sorry he has been let down and I’m more sorry for the massive brain damage he will go through in Shi’a Islam if he converts to it.

    I just hope my comment gets through and isn’t deleted by the mods so that he may come to the forums here. I talked to a person like him once that nearly converted to Islam, (well technically speaking that said person already did convert to Islam sinde he said the Shahada), now that said person is a practicing Christian and he through all the Islamic books given to him by Muslims in the garbage.
     
  8. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

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    I actually understand this, coming from a background in psychology. And well there are Christian versions of this. There is a popular saying that comes from a Protestant hymn based on John, "And they shall know that we are Christians by Our Love". And well, I have seen even Oriental Orthodox versions of this, from the Copts especially, they are very friendly and welcoming to outsiders, being the first OO to really get into Evangelism in the States and much of that simply being based on basic Christian hospitality and friendliness.

    And then there is this one quote (from an American Protestant) I like to mention from a book, that I think is very relevant to postmodern / post christian society...


    "During my seminary education, I never felt we really addressed the question: “What does it mean to be a member of the church” Later, when I turned to the early Christian tradition and began, for the first time, to understand what it meant to be a member of the body of Christ, it was like removing blinders that had covered my eyes.

    I learned from the early Fathers that the church is intrinsically connected with Christ and his victory over the power of evil. The church is therefore to be regarded as a kind of continuation of the presence of Jesus in the world. Jesus is not only seated at the right hand of the Father, but is visibly and tangibly present in and to the world through the church. This is an incarnational understanding of the church. It is a unique community of people in the world, a community like no other community because it is the presence of the divine in and to the world. This concept of the church has specific relevance to the world of postmodernism.

    . . . What this means for the church is that Christians must recover the primacy of being a Christian community. . . .

    . . . the church is the primary presence of God’s activity in the world. As we pay attention to what it means to be the church we create an alternative community to the society of the world. This new community, the embodied experience of God’s kingdom, will draw people into itself and nurture them in the faith. In this sense the church and its life in the world will become the new apologetic. People come to the faith not because they see the logic of the argument but because they have experienced a welcoming God in a hospitable and loving community. QUOTE

    – Ancient-Future Faith, pp. 70-72"
    https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Future-Faith-Rethinking-Evangelicalism-Postmodern/dp/080106029X

    Ancient future.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2020
  9. Balticus

    Balticus New Member

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    Well, if the nature of God was so easy to understand, He wouldn't be much of a God, right? Besides, it would probably mean that our understanding of it is too simplified and basically wrong. The doctrine of Trinity is sound, biblical, and confirmed by countless theologians and saints.

    The undue simplicity of islamic view on the nature of God (tawhid) doesn't appeal to me at all. Also, I don't understand Muslims when they tell me that "God cannot incarnate into a human being". Well, my God can do everything - that's what the adjective 'omnipotent' means.

    The only reason I can possibly think of, for a Christian to convert to Islam, is that such a person is looking for a religion that gives easy answers, introduces large measure of externally enforced discipline, and can help the said individual to deal with his complexes (regarding women, rich people, sex etc.) Of course it also means that such person was never much of a Christian anyway.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2020
  10. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    I dunno...there are about 16 million Mormons out there that are probably mostly a good example of people doing exactly that. Granted, what else can be said about people and an age where many cannot stand firmness in doctrine? I would actually hope that Mormons and Muslims and others would be extra-nice, because once you get rid of truth (as one must if they are going to convert to these religions from Christianity), what else could there be to keep a person in their religion? Being mean and wrong is certainly not preferable to being nice and wrong.

    HG Bishop Youssef wasn't there that day, but I got similar treatment from the Copts when I first attended the local parish in my then-hometown back in 2011. Abouna Marcus sat with me for a half an hour after liturgy and the agape meal just to talk to me about the Church, its history, and answer any questions I might have. Then they did that every time after that (not always for a half an hour, but always making time to ask me specifically if I had any questions or concerns they could answer) until I decided to request baptism, about 6 months later.

    So maybe the Muslim will do something extraordinary to quickly make a convert...and maybe that's why many converts to Islam end up 'de-converting' soon afterwards, in non-Islamic countries where they are free to do so.

    [​IMG]
    (Billboard featured in a story on EXMNA here)

    Also there's the whole Matthew 23:15 phenomenon, though I wouldn't want to suggest that this applies to all who attempt to make converts to Islam. (It's still the devil's work, though.)
     
  11. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I think being nice is the only way a Mormon could convert someone given the incoherence and ridiculousness of Mormon doctrines. I’ve been treated extremely negatively in my life by the Islamic clergy, it was definitely one of the things that fueled me to actually realize Islam was a terrible religion. I still have a nickname for the Islamic clergy in Saudi, I refer to them as “Satan’s priests.” But of course no matter how nice followers of a religion are that doesn’t make it right. I think I’d like to be a Zoroastrian again if I believed in a faith based on how nice it’s adherents are.

    Bishop Nicodemus Daoud Sharaf happened to be visiting the Syriac Orthodox Church in London at the time when I visited the Church and I happened on him and started talking to him. He called one of the monk priests in the Church to take care of me and explain anything that I don’t know to me, obviously most of the conversations were going on in Arabic, they thought I was Syrian or Lebanese due to my accent at first though. He told me that I was still underage, but he did promise me that when I come of age and still come back that they will baptize me if I really want it. After we talked he wanted me to eat next to him however since I was running late I had to leave early before the feast. Due to receiving abuse and witnessing massive corruption from “Satan’s priests” most of my life this was a real shock that I didn’t expect.

    Having witnessed the true nature of Islam, there’s nothing on a Earth that would ever convince me its true no matter how many nice Muslims I will end up meeting in the future, besides my liberal family and non practicing friends, I’ve yet to actually meet nice practicing religious Muslims despite living in a 100% Islamic nation.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2020
  12. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    Christians are supposed to be the nicest people in the world:

    Joh 13:34-35 “A new commandment I give you: Love one another. Just as I have loved you, so also you are to love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

    Mat 5:44-46 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Even the tax collectors do the same, don’t they?

    Unfortunately, some Christians have traded "love" for a poor understanding of what "truth" is.

    Everyone will be nice to you if you join their group. Even criminals love their families and friends. The question is, can we love those who are doctrinally different from us without the ulterior motive of bringing them to our version of "truth?"
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2020
  13. Landon Caeli

    Landon Caeli ~□~

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    A simple way of viewing it is to look at ones self... Do we not have both souls and physical bodies? Does that make us two people..? Of course not.

    ...How much more difficult is it to apply that same concept to God, but plus one.
     
  14. Ignatius the Kiwi

    Ignatius the Kiwi Newbie

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    I think few people in general are converted by reasonable arguments. There are strong emotional attachments to our worldviews (regardless of what it is, Atheism, Christianity or Islam) that often impact our decisions and whether we're willing to stay in a faith tradition or not.

    I would agree that Islam is nonsensical but that doesn't override the general sense of Islam being meaningful in the way Islamic communities act. They don't tolerate dissent, they seem to enjoy a prestige that Christianity simply doesn't get in the west (How many times must we be lectured about our failures when an Islamist blows up a building and kills people?).
     
  15. ewq1938

    ewq1938 ran home at home Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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