Why celebrating Juneteenth is more important now than ever

[SummerMadness]

Why celebrating Juneteenth is more important now than ever

As the Civil War came to a close in 1865, a number of people remained enslaved, especially in remote areas. Word of slavery’s end traveled slowly, and for those who were largely isolated from Union armies, life continued as if freedom did not exist.

This was especially the case in Texas, where thousands of slaves were not made aware of freedom until June 19, 1865, when Union Gen. Gordon Granger arrived in Galveston and issued an order officially freeing them. Their celebration would serve as the basis of June 19 — or Juneteenth — a holiday celebrating emancipation in the US.

 

[Anto9us]

Juneteenth has been real big in Texas since I was a little kid -- sometimes black people got the day off from work.

 

[paul becke]

Why celebrating Juneteenth is more important now than ever

Hmm, where are the calls for these people to get over the dissolution of a failed state that had racism at its cornerstone? I guess we should tell them, "You lost, get over it."

Ha ha Good point ! Incredible as it sounds, there are people on here who try to find some kind of blandishment to downplay the satanic wickedness of slavery. In fact, in the Old Testament, Yahweh stated verfy categorically that he loathed it, that it was an abomination, and that the Hebrews should not engage in it against their own people.

Christians have a duty to spread the Godpel and baptise, where possible, and, indeed, slave-owners seemingly did so. Immediately, if there had been any doubt before, it is apparent that by doing so, they were creating a bond of divine brotherhood with their slaves, and were thereupon bound by God's law to release them, forthwith, people they had held captive against their will, to spend ther lives in the most degrading and cruel circumstances, as mere units of production, - even breaking up families.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

It looks like they went from being unpaid slaves to paid slaves. I wonder how much money they had left after their former masters now charged them rent.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Juneteenth has been real big in Texas since I was a little kid -- sometimes black people got the day off from work.

This is the first I've heard of it.

 

[paul becke]

It looks like they went from being unpaid slaves to paid slaves. I wonder how much money they had left after their former masters now charged them rent.

Yes, that was the big mistake that Shelby Foote ascribed to the Government of the day : that they had made no provision for their poor victims to survive in the society they had been kidnapped to live in. Anyway, via the neoliberal 'trickle-down' trickery, the Haves have been busily and increasingly enslaving the Have Nots. Well apart from that, of course, there is the mass homelessness and early death that even families have been consigned to.

Sociologists estimate that 'living rough' is equivalent, in terms of stress, to a soldier being 'in the field'. The average age of their deaths in the UK is 43.

 

[cafefan374]

So far Texas and Oklahoma are the only ones who recognize Juneteenth as a state holiday. It is more important now than every that we make a habit to observe it as it is our real independence day. It's the day the last slaves were freed and more states need to begin to take notice.

 

[paul becke]

So far Texas and Oklahoma are the only ones who recognize Juneteenth as a state holiday. It is more important now than every that we make a habit to observe it as it is our real independence day. It's the day the last slaves were freed and more states need to begin to take notice.

One of my cousins in Wales discovered that, as well as some famous, historical British and European characters, we are descended from some African slaves in the US ; Kel is corresponding with their descendants who he has located. I already have a touch of the 'tar brush' from my Ango-Indian father, as it happens. I expect I'm descended from Akbar the Magnificent and Gunga Din on that side of the family.

 

[dgiharris]

This is the first I've heard of it.

Juneteenth is something that is region specific, it's not like Black communities all across the US celebrate it. Some do and have parades, marches, or even block parties: NY, Atlanta, Houston, Louisiana, come to mind. But in my hood, It was something that we all knew about, something we talked about at Church or any official event occurring in June, but it wasn't like we all headed to the park to have a Juneteenth barbecue.

As a whole, the Black community has mixed feelings about Juneteenth. On one hand, it is a great day because we were "freed" on that day... but on the other hand it is a reminder of slavery and slavery is a subject that every Black person still takes personally and doesn't really like talking about. Unfortunately, I think a lot of Whites don't understand the hold slavery has on us as a people to this day. A lot of Whites think 'Meh, that happened over a hundred years ago get over it..." But we can't. It is something that is so ingrained in our culture and we still feel the impact of it every day. I would equate it to how Jews feel about the Holocaust. Most Jews today were not alive during the Holocaust but they still "feel" the effect of the Holocaust in their families and to some extent that event still impacts their everyday lives in some way even if they are unaware of it. Same with Blacks.

So yeah, I've never been a fan of Juneteenth. For me, it's a painful subject i don't like being reminded of.

 

[cafefan374]

We're reminded of slavery on a regular basis, there's no way around it. That said, Juneteenth is a celebration of the emancipation. We don't really observe it in my area, however other cities in my home state do.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Juneteenth is something that is region specific, it's not like Black communities all across the US celebrate it. Some do and have parades, marches, or even block parties: NY, Atlanta, Houston, Louisiana, come to mind. But in my hood, It was something that we all knew about, something we talked about at Church or any official event occurring in June, but it wasn't like we all headed to the park to have a Juneteenth barbecue.

As a whole, the Black community has mixed feelings about Juneteenth. On one hand, it is a great day because we were "freed" on that day... but on the other hand it is a reminder of slavery and slavery is a subject that every Black person still takes personally and doesn't really like talking about. Unfortunately, I think a lot of Whites don't understand the hold slavery has on us as a people to this day. A lot of Whites think 'Meh, that happened over a hundred years ago get over it..." But we can't.

Why not?

It is something that is so ingrained in our culture and we still feel the impact of it every day. I would equate it to how Jews feel about the Holocaust. Most Jews today were not alive during the Holocaust but they still "feel" the effect of the Holocaust in their families and to some extent that event still impacts their everyday lives in some way even if they are unaware of it. Same with Blacks.

I've known a lotvof jewish guys dgi....not as many as the blacks I've known, but a lot. I've never heard any of them bring up the holocaust as an excuse for anything. I've never heard them say that anyone owed them anything for the holocaust. To be honest, I don't think I've ever heard them mention the holocaust outside of a dialogue about history.

They might not have "let it go"....but they certainly aren't clinging to it either.

So yeah, I've never been a fan of Juneteenth. For me, it's a painful subject i don't like being reminded of.

I can understand that.

 

[dgiharris]

I've known a lotvof jewish guys dgi....not as many as the blacks I've known, but a lot. I've never heard any of them bring up the holocaust as an excuse for anything. I've never heard them say that anyone owed them anything for the holocaust. To be honest, I don't think I've ever heard them mention the holocaust outside of a dialogue about history.
.

The entire Nation State of Israel is in response to the Holocaust. Had there been no formulation of Israel, you might hear differently. Not to debate this particular subject ... but I did bring it up so maybe it is fair to debate. The situation between Blacks and Jews in this country are different.

The reason Blacks "cling to slavery" as you put it is because most of the socio-economic-political problems Blacks face in this country are due to slavery. There is a very clear cause and effect between slavery in this country and the socio-economic-political problems Blacks face in this country.

The problems Jews face in this country are not as clearly traced to the Holocaust as the problems Blacks face in this country are conversely easily traced back to slavery. Similarly, Jews and other other ethnic minorities with fair skin can assimilate easier in this country which also has an impact on the results.

I feel in this country we make no real effort to understand our socio-economic-political problems. We have the memory of goldfish and want to snap our fingers and say, 'Hey, that happened 50 or 100 years ago therefore it can't have any relevance to today's situation'. If that were the case, why even bother having the subject of History taught in schools. The truth is, some things will have an impact for decades if not centuries.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The entire Nation State of Israel is in response to the Holocaust.

The political notion of a jewish state began in the late 1800s...well before the holocaust.

Had there been no formulation of Israel, you might hear differently. Not to debate this particular subject ... but I did bring it up so maybe it is fair to debate. The situation between Blacks and Jews in this country are different.

Just fyi...the jews I've all known were American jews...not Israeli.

The reason Blacks "cling to slavery" as you put it is because most of the socio-economic-political problems Blacks face in this country are due to slavery.

Are they?

How would someone even figure out such a thing?

There is a very clear cause and effect between slavery in this country and the socio-economic-political problems Blacks face in this country.

Let's hear it then.

The problems Jews face in this country are not as clearly traced to the Holocaust as the problems Blacks face in this country are conversely easily traced back to slavery.

Many of the jewish people here left nazi Europe with nothing but their shirts on their backs.

Similarly, Jews and other other ethnic minorities with fair skin can assimilate easier in this country which also has an impact on the results.

Let's not forget that their culture is wrapped up in religious ceremony/belief. It's not something they need to wear as clothing, or heard in the way they speak, or in the behavior they expect of each other.

I feel in this country we make no real effort to understand our socio-economic-political problems. We have the memory of goldfish and want to snap our fingers and say, 'Hey, that happened 50 or 100 years ago therefore it can't have any relevance to today's situation'. If that were the case, why even bother having the subject of History taught in schools. The truth is, some things will have an impact for decades if not centuries.

Sure...impact is a vague word though. Did slavery once greatly impact the economic status of blacks? You betcha. Does it still? Probably...though not in a significant manner.

 

[paul becke]

The tension would have been exacerbated by the fact that there were many white slaves, in the guise of servants in 'indentured servitude'. Some were released and given passage on a ship home after a number of years, according to the deed of indenture; but in many cases, there was no formal deed and they were simply slaves. The lad in Robert Louis Stevenson's novel, Kidnapped, was sold into such slavery by a wicked uncle, wasn't he ? Well, that had bene his intention.

In fact, it is where the word, 'kidnapped' is derived from. White youngsters straying a little way from home were liable to be kidnapped into slavery. Parents had to be very vigilant over them. It is said that the increasing incidence of white slavery in the South was one of the reasons why Lincoln decided it had to be abolished (though he had one or more slaves, himself, I believe).

Because they tended to be stronger, the black slaves were more highly valued than the white slaves, who, for instance, were given the more dangerous position in the ships hold during loading, to deal with the merchandise being thrown down by the black slaves.

Nobody wants to be bottom of the pecking order, apart from a few saints and oddbods.It was a vicious world, even by our standards. While working on the constructiion of the Panama Canal, the bodies of Irish labourers who died as a result of accidents, were simply thrown into the holes made by the pile-drivers.

 

[dgiharris]

Let's hear it then.

I'll do my best to be concise and not write a book here.

The entire Socio-Economic-Political spectrum of the country was not favorable to Blacks. Blacks were considered actual property and completely devoid of all rights. Thousands of laws directly and indirectly reinforced it. This led to a socio-economic climate that likewise was not favorable to Blacks.

If you look the GDP as a pie chart, how much of that pie charts did Blacks occupy back in 1865, 1885, 1905...?
If you were to categorize jobs by positions of authority and power, what percent of those jobs were owned by Blacks in 1865, 1885, 1905...?

Now, think about living everyday life and getting "ahead" in the rat race. How did Black schools in 1905, 1925, 1945... compare to White Schools?

How did the law treat Blacks as compared to Whites in 1925, 1945, 1965???
What is the lag between changing a law and society embracing a new philosophy driven by said new law?

It is easy to look at an exceptional person like General Colin Powell and say, "Hey, see here is a Black person who had the deck stacked against him and he did great, why can't all Black people just do that?" Well, you can't look at someone in the top 1% of their peer group then make the argument that the entire peer group should be just as exceptional as the top 1%-er. That is not how math works.

Then there is police treatment and targeting of Blacks, the War on Drugs that completely obliterated the Black Community and led to a host of socio-economic-political problems that we are barely starting to reverse today.

In a nutshell, it takes time for laws to change and impact society on a large scale. I am not talking about one or two cherry picked exceptional people, I'm talking about an entire class and population of people. A people for whom the actual written law was against them for the majority of the 20th century. How quickly do you think a society changes?

Normally, I would never try to engage in this sort of argument online. but to your credit, you seem fairly open to debate and considering the arguments of others. This is a complex argument though and to do it justice I'd need a 100 more pages. But again, in a nutshell, it is simply a matter of cascading cause and effect.

The children of college graduates are far more likely to do better in school then the children of parents who never went to school.
The children of CEOs and Executives are far more likely to do better career wise then the children of parents working minimum wage.
The children of criminals are far more likely to engage in criminal behavior than the children of law abiding tax paying citizens.

So, simply apply the above to history.
How much opportunity was their for blacks to obtain education back in 1885? 1905? 1925...?
How much opportunity was their for blacks to own their own companies back in 1885, 1905, 1925...?
What does the above mean for the likelihood of success for their children.

Rinse and repeat the above for 1945, 1965, 1985?
Apply the results to the entire GDP of America as well as various jobs and positions of authority.

I will wholeheartedly agree that things for Blacks in this country are getting better. It is much better being Black in 2018 than it was being Black in 1968. But the people of 1968 that were racist and the policies of 1965 that were racist can still be felt today. The son of some CEO born in 1965 would be in their 50s now and likely running his Daddy's company. What are the odds that company is going to be open and accepting of Blacks?

now, I'm not arguing that every company is racist nor is everyone from the 1960s racist. I'm just arguing statistics and likelihood of influence of the socio-political-economic factors would on large segments of the population.

It is cause and effect in a string of cause and effect that dates back to Slavery. With time, things get better, the influence wanes. One day, it will be insignificant but that day is not today.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I'll do my best to be concise and not write a book here.

Ok...I'll do the same.

The entire Socio-Economic-Political spectrum of the country was not favorable to Blacks. Blacks were considered actual property and completely devoid of all rights. Thousands of laws directly and indirectly reinforced it. This led to a socio-economic climate that likewise was not favorable to Blacks.

If you look the GDP as a pie chart, how much of that pie charts did Blacks occupy back in 1865, 1885, 1905...?

I couldn't find the pie chart....do you have one?

If you were to categorize jobs by positions of authority and power, what percent of those jobs were owned by Blacks in 1865, 1885, 1905...?

Again, I couldn't find any such chart.

Now, think about living everyday life and getting "ahead" in the rat race. How did Black schools in 1905, 1925, 1945... compare to White Schools?

Well...public schools weren't very common by 1905 or even 1925. I'd be surprised if a majority of whites were educated in them. That might have changed by 1945...but it kind of nullifies your point. I mean if it took till the 40s for most white people to get a public education, then even if they were better than black schools....that's an advantage white people had for only a couple of decades before de-segregation ended it.

How did the law treat Blacks as compared to Whites in 1925, 1945, 1965???
What is the lag between changing a law and society embracing a new philosophy driven by said new law?

That's hard to say...I mean, some think the laws themselves only change when the prevailing attitude in society changes. I'm sure it's a mix of the two situations though.

It is easy to look at an exceptional person like General Colin Powell and say, "Hey, see here is a Black person who had the deck stacked against him and he did great, why can't all Black people just do that?" Well, you can't look at someone in the top 1% of their peer group then make the argument that the entire peer group should be just as exceptional as the top 1%-er. That is not how math works.

Uh huh....

Well why is it then so many of your examples focus on that 1%? Whether it's a white CEO....a bad cop....or a black person who faced some unusual challenges?

We can either talk about the 1% or talk about the average....but its dishonest to bounce back and forth between the two only when it's to your advantage.

Then there is police treatment and targeting of Blacks, the War on Drugs that completely obliterated the Black Community and led to a host of socio-economic-political problems that we are barely starting to reverse today.

The funny thing is....we're seeing a similar situation in the white community with opioids today, yet no one claims it's race related. Instead, everyone ends up talking about the personal choices of the criminal.

https://www.thenation.com/article/t...d-to-a-spike-in-the-white-incarceration-rate/

You see...it's almost as if the group that's using the drugs being targeted (today opioids....in the 80s it was crack) ends up in jail. Now, I'll admit, you don't see as many whites in jail for oxy as you did blacks for crack....but I also haven't heard about any white street gangs springing up to traffic this stuff either, probably because it comes from pharmacies.

In a nutshell, it takes time for laws to change and impact society on a large scale. I am not talking about one or two cherry picked exceptional people, I'm talking about an entire class and population of people. A people for whom the actual written law was against them for the majority of the 20th century. How quickly do you think a society changes?

Seems like mere years these days....back in the mid-late 1900s? Decades I suppose.

Normally, I would never try to engage in this sort of argument online. but to your credit, you seem fairly open to debate and considering the arguments of others. This is a complex argument though and to do it justice I'd need a 100 more pages. But again, in a nutshell, it is simply a matter of cascading cause and effect.

The children of college graduates are far more likely to do better in school then the children of parents who never went to school.

Ok.

The children of CEOs and Executives are far more likely to do better career wise then the children of parents working minimum wage.
The children of criminals are far more likely to engage in criminal behavior than the children of law abiding tax paying citizens.

Ok.

So, simply apply the above to history.
How much opportunity was their for blacks to obtain education back in 1885? 1905? 1925...?

I'm sure I don't know.

How much opportunity was their for blacks to own their own companies back in 1885, 1905, 1925...?

Again, I don't know...these are some abstract questions.

What does the above mean for the likelihood of success for their children.

Rinse and repeat the above for 1945, 1965, 1985?

Ok...

Apply the results to the entire GDP of America as well as various jobs and positions of authority.

I will wholeheartedly agree that things for Blacks in this country are getting better. It is much better being Black in 2018 than it was being Black in 1968. But the people of 1968 that were racist and the policies of 1965 that were racist can still be felt today. The son of some CEO born in 1965 would be in their 50s now and likely running his Daddy's company. What are the odds that company is going to be open and accepting of Blacks?

Here we are with that 1% again....are we talking about him and Colin Powell or not?

now, I'm not arguing that every company is racist nor is everyone from the 1960s racist. I'm just arguing statistics and likelihood of influence of the socio-political-economic factors would on large segments of the population.

It is cause and effect in a string of cause and effect that dates back to Slavery. With time, things get better, the influence wanes. One day, it will be insignificant but that day is not today.

Here's the thing...

NYT just published an article this year showing that black women (a group we're often told has it the worst with regards to racism and sexism) do just as well as their white female counterparts at every economic level. That is....if they're poor, they'll be just as successful as a similarly poor white woman. If they're rich....they'll do just as well as a similarly rich white woman.

This is, in spite of, your narrative about a cascading chain of cause and effect stretching back into slavery. If there is some residual effects from slavery....how come we can't see it? Are you suggesting that all black women must be working much harder or are more competent than white women....and that's why we don't see the negative effects of slavery? Cuz frankly that seems pretty/racist and silly.

The only other conclusion I can reach, is that those residual effects of slavery are so extraordinarily small...they no longer show up on a paycheck. I know that's not what you want to hear/believe...but there's no other explanations I'm aware of.

 

[paul becke]

I'll do my best to be concise and not write a book here.

The entire Socio-Economic-Political spectrum of the country was not favorable to Blacks. Blacks were considered actual property and completely devoid of all rights. Thousands of laws directly and indirectly reinforced it. This led to a socio-economic climate that likewise was not favorable to Blacks.

If you look the GDP as a pie chart, how much of that pie charts did Blacks occupy back in 1865, 1885, 1905...?
If you were to categorize jobs by positions of authority and power, what percent of those jobs were owned by Blacks in 1865, 1885, 1905...?

Now, think about living everyday life and getting "ahead" in the rat race. How did Black schools in 1905, 1925, 1945... compare to White Schools?

How did the law treat Blacks as compared to Whites in 1925, 1945, 1965???
What is the lag between changing a law and society embracing a new philosophy driven by said new law?

It is easy to look at an exceptional person like General Colin Powell and say, "Hey, see here is a Black person who had the deck stacked against him and he did great, why can't all Black people just do that?" Well, you can't look at someone in the top 1% of their peer group then make the argument that the entire peer group should be just as exceptional as the top 1%-er. That is not how math works.

Then there is police treatment and targeting of Blacks, the War on Drugs that completely obliterated the Black Community and led to a host of socio-economic-political problems that we are barely starting to reverse today.

In a nutshell, it takes time for laws to change and impact society on a large scale. I am not talking about one or two cherry picked exceptional people, I'm talking about an entire class and population of people. A people for whom the actual written law was against them for the majority of the 20th century. How quickly do you think a society changes?

Normally, I would never try to engage in this sort of argument online. but to your credit, you seem fairly open to debate and considering the arguments of others. This is a complex argument though and to do it justice I'd need a 100 more pages. But again, in a nutshell, it is simply a matter of cascading cause and effect.

The children of college graduates are far more likely to do better in school then the children of parents who never went to school.
The children of CEOs and Executives are far more likely to do better career wise then the children of parents working minimum wage.
The children of criminals are far more likely to engage in criminal behavior than the children of law abiding tax paying citizens.

So, simply apply the above to history.
How much opportunity was their for blacks to obtain education back in 1885? 1905? 1925...?
How much opportunity was their for blacks to own their own companies back in 1885, 1905, 1925...?
What does the above mean for the likelihood of success for their children.

Rinse and repeat the above for 1945, 1965, 1985?
Apply the results to the entire GDP of America as well as various jobs and positions of authority.

I will wholeheartedly agree that things for Blacks in this country are getting better. It is much better being Black in 2018 than it was being Black in 1968. But the people of 1968 that were racist and the policies of 1965 that were racist can still be felt today. The son of some CEO born in 1965 would be in their 50s now and likely running his Daddy's company. What are the odds that company is going to be open and accepting of Blacks?

now, I'm not arguing that every company is racist nor is everyone from the 1960s racist. I'm just arguing statistics and likelihood of influence of the socio-political-economic factors would on large segments of the population.

It is cause and effect in a string of cause and effect that dates back to Slavery. With time, things get better, the influence wanes. One day, it will be insignificant but that day is not today.

If he thinks your questions are abstract.... I'm not surprised at your silence. And if he doesn't have any idea how black Americans would have been treated a century and more ago, I don't think you will find this conversation will prove very fruitful or stimulating.

 

[Ana the Ist]

If he thinks your questions are abstract.... I'm not surprised at your silence. And if he doesn't have any idea how black Americans would have been treated a century and more ago, I don't think you will find this conversation will prove very fruitful or stimulating.

Lol thanks for the empty commentary....

"If" I find his questions abstract? They are abstract. I mean, organize jobs by "power and authority"? These are both abstract concepts.

Then he asks "how much opportunity existed for xyz"? As if I can just get out the old "opportunity 'o' meter" and hop in my time machine to measure opportunity lol.

These things are all relative. Did blacks have less business owning opportunities than whites in the US in 1915? Yes. Did they have more opportunities than whites worldwide in general? Probably. Did they have more opportunities than blacks anywhere else? Almost certainly.

 

[paul becke]

Lol thanks for the empty commentary....

"If" I find his questions abstract? They are abstract. I mean, organize jobs by "power and authority"? These are both abstract concepts.

Then he asks "how much opportunity existed for xyz"? As if I can just get out the old "opportunity 'o' meter" and hop in my time machine to measure opportunity lol.

These things are all relative. Did blacks have less business owning opportunities than whites in the US in 1915? Yes. Did they have more opportunities than whites worldwide in general? Probably. Did they have more opportunities than blacks anywhere else? Almost certainly.

My! but you sure rely heavily on abstractions with your rhetorical questions and tentative at answers, particularly in the last paragraph. I though you only considerd matters that were meticulously tabulated and stroed ina vast library from which to quote facts and figires. You're as daft as a brush, lad. You must be to be an atheist. (Now watch the mods come down on me like a ton of bricks for responding to you in kind).

Have a look at these and weep for the folly of you and your confreres with that abiogenesis nonsense:

 

[Ana the Ist]

My! but you sure rely heavily on abstractions with your rhetorical questions and tentative at answers, particularly in the last paragraph. I though you only considerd matters that were meticulously tabulated and stroed ina vast library from which to quote facts and figires. You're as daft as a brush, lad. You must be to be an atheist. (Now watch the mods come down on me like a ton of bricks for responding to you in kind).

Indeed...I was making a point on that last paragraph. It must've gone over your head.

Have a look at these and weep for the folly of you and your confreres with that abiogenesis

Did you have a stroke or something before you tried to reply? I can barely make out what you're saying.

I just deleted the videos since they're off-topic. You're welcome.