Why catholic traditionalist like the latin mass

[Julian of Norwich]

While I was an RCC I attended a TLM and it was awesome, full of mystery, fully traditional (in the best sense) and obviously giving God the best worship we measly humans can muster. I was enthralled! Part of the mystery (even though the latin missal had English alongside the latin so that we could understand) was the latin. It was obviously part of ecclesiological history. It made it even more dignified.
The closest I have come in English was the Episcopal services I went to as I grew up with the pomp and the 1928 BCP. The language was so dignified since we only used it for Him. The beauty of the service I haven't come across in my adult years (we started using street language so a lower elementary school child could understand it-course I was reading with full comprehension the KJV at 6 ).

 

[Tigger45]

Thought this video clip would be a welcome addition to this thread.

 

[peregrinus2017]

Forgive and correct me if I'm mistaken, but it seems that the difference between a Latin and English Catholic mass seems vast, whereas the difference between an English and Greek, Russian, Ukrainian or whatever liturgy is mostly the language. I could see it being easy to prefer the Latin rite if it is more reverent and worshipful, though my experience there is bordering on non-existent.

 

[Julian of Norwich]

IMO, the Latin Mass is more reverent and worshipful!

 

[ralfyman]

According to Pope Benedict XVI, who brought back the EF because it was never abrogated and some Catholics miss it, it and the OF are one and the same rite.

 

[Julian of Norwich]

According to Pope Benedict XVI, who brought back the EF because it was never abrogated and some Catholics miss it, it and the OF are one and the same rite.

On paper maybe, but while I was RCC I also went to an OF in Latin. Although it was very nice, it was not at all like the Traditional Latin Mass!

 

[ralfyman]

On paper maybe, but while I was RCC I also went to an OF in Latin. Although it was very nice, it was not at all like the Traditional Latin Mass!

That's because they're two forms of the same rite. Pope Benedict XVI and others add that the OF comes from much of Church history, all the way to its earliest centuries.

 

[chevyontheriver]

According to Pope Benedict XIV, the Ordinary Form (OF) borrows from much of Church history, and that the problem isn't so much the form but the way it is abused by some. He also argues that the OF and the Extraordinary Form (EF) are one and the same rite, and that if practiced correctly, the OF can be an enriching experience. He adds that the EF was brought back because it was never abrogated and that some miss it.

Finally, another source adds that the revised liturgy uses much of the Bible.

There are people radically opposed to mass in the vernacular in the OF, others radically opposed to Latin in the EF. But I am not one radically opposed to either. I guess I WOULD be radically opposed to clown masses though. Not sure about Polka masses either.

I DO think that the OF lost some things in the process as it was developed in the 60's and early 70's. Particularly a sense of sacredness that the EF developed over the many centuries. But it IS possible to have a reverent OF mass with a sense of the sacred, as I have seen many many times. It does seem almost built in in the EF though. It takes work in the OF, which seems easier to mess up.

Of course one needs to actually be able to understand the Latin of the mass in Latin, and I do not ever recall ever being to a Latin mass without translations available. I don't need such things as my high school Latin still gets me by, but the point is it's not hocus pocus because the translations are right there. Or you know it through study or repetition. "Pater noster ... sed libera nos a malo."

I have also experienced Latin OF masses at a church that never stopped having the mass in Latin. Not the commonest thing, but reverent. And Ordinariate masses in Cranmerian English. Reverent and slightly archaic English, and it worked for me. I have not been to any Eastern Rite Catholic liturgies, but a distant in-law recommends one such parish. It comes down to a sacral language. Which is probably why many (not me though) are so enamored of the KJV or even the Douay Bible. And down to a willingness to be faithful to Christ in the particular rubrics of the mass in whatever form or language. A non-believing priest is hard placed to be an effective 'alter Christi' even if one subscribes to 'ex opere operato'. That because there is always 'ex opere operantis' concerning the disposition of the recipient, and the recipient's reception can be damaged by a clown playing priest who did not do what he could and should to prepare the recipient.

I am sure there have been and even still are EF masses that are irreverent, perfunctory, low pass, full of liturgical abuses. Most of them now will be done by people who want to be reverent. And I think that desire for reverence itself goes a long way to achieving the reverence. Which is why I think the OF mass can be reverent depending on the disposition of those present.

 

[chevyontheriver]

While I was an RCC I attended a TLM and it was awesome, full of mystery, fully traditional (in the best sense) and obviously giving God the best worship we measly humans can muster. I was enthralled! Part of the mystery (even though the latin missal had English alongside the latin so that we could understand) was the latin. It was obviously part of ecclesiological history. It made it even more dignified.
The closest I have come in English was the Episcopal services I went to as I grew up with the pomp and the 1928 BCP. The language was so dignified since we only used it for Him. The beauty of the service I haven't come across in my adult years (we started using street language so a lower elementary school child could understand it-course I was reading with full comprehension the KJV at 6 ).

The Anglican Ordinariates have recently finished a 'St. Gregory's Prayer Book' that mostly follows the old BCP but is adapted for Catholic usage. Published by Ignatius Press as SGPGP. Just out. I'm almost tempted to get one but I'm not in one of the Ordinariates as I never was Episcopalian (or Methodist) so I don't qualify for Ordinatiate membership. My grandfather would have qualified if it was a thing back then when he became Catholic but I don't. I can appreciate the dignified language nonetheless, which still is in use in parts of Catholicland in English. It's not all a Latin vs English thing or all a EF vs OF thing. There are a whole matrix of possibilities.

 

[thecolorsblend]

The Anglican Ordinariates have recently finished a 'St. Gregory's Prayer Book' that mostly follows the old BCP but is adapted for Catholic usage. Published by Ignatius Press as SGPGP. Just out. I'm almost tempted to get one but I'm not in one of the Ordinariates as I never was Episcopalian (or Methodist) so I don't qualify for Ordinatiate membership. My grandfather would have qualified if it was a thing back then when he became Catholic but I don't. I can appreciate the dignified language nonetheless, which still is in use in parts of Catholicland in English. It's not all a Latin vs English thing or all a EF vs OF thing. There are a whole matrix of possibilities.

I was never confirmed in my old ACNA parish. I sometimes wonder if I would be eligible for Ordinariate registration if I had been.

Alas...

 

[chevyontheriver]

I was never confirmed in my old ACNA parish. I sometimes wonder if I would be eligible for Ordinariate registration if I had been.

Alas...

Were you a member of the ANCA in any other sense? Of any other Anglican organization? For that matter, ever Methodist? Where were you baptized?

 

[thecolorsblend]

Were you a member of the ANCA in any other sense? Of any other Anglican organization? For that matter, ever Methodist? Where were you baptized?

Filled out a "connection card" at the ACNA parish. Can't remember if I ever set up an actual membership there but I was accepted as a member de facto, if not de jure, for the year I stuck around there.

Was never Methodist.

Was baptized in the Churches Of Christ and was conditionally baptized during Catholic Confirmation.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Filled out a "connection card" at the ACNA parish. Can't remember if I ever set up an actual membership there but I was accepted as a member de facto, if not de jure, for the year I stuck around there.

Was never Methodist.

Was baptized in the Churches Of Christ and was conditionally baptized during Catholic Confirmation.

Have you ever asked an Ordinariate priest? Sounds like your path from Church of Christ to Catholic via the ANCA could qualify you.

You can hang out with the Ordinariate even without joining them. My plan is to drop in on them from time to time in the coming years. And that is allowable. I would encourage any Catholic to drop in on them but not meddle with them. They are suffering a bit from rad-trads who are overwhelming them.

 

[Knee V]

I certainly understand the draw of the TLM over the NO Mass, and it frankly makes me happy to see how popular it is becoming with younger Catholics.

As a cultural aside, I don't see why that liturgy couldn't be translated into a high form of the vernacular. The Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom is usually translated into the vernacular, and my parish uses what could rightly be called "liturgical English". There are absolutely ways to make the English sound very eloquent and dignified.

 

[dzheremi]

Agreed, though I guess "dignified and eloquent" is in the eye of the beholder, as many of our priests have strong Egyptian accents. They will be replaced in coming generations by native people in places where the Church is very new. And anyway, accent or not it is still required that the liturgy be served in the language of the people, and we have made some good strides in this, as I know you guys have also. I have seen via the internet Coptic liturgies served in Zulu or Xhosa in South Africa (I can't tell them apart ), in Spanish in Bolivia, in Japanese in Japan, in Russian in the most Russian-heavy area of Egypt (so even for foreigner residents, we will adapt!), Italian in Italy, etc., and I have heard that in Sudan some of our priests have at least some facility in Nubian (some Copts in Sudan are obviously mixed, heritage-wise).

I don't know of any theological or canonical arguments to be made for keeping the language in some form that people will not understand, though there are other types of arguments to be made (as I already did in my other post; I think it's a linguistically valid argument, but it's inherently not theological). This is why all of our service books have trilingual columns -- one for Arabic, one for Coptic/Greek (Copts usually don't recognize these as different, since it's all printed in the Coptic script), and one for English (since I'm in the USA). That way everything is covered and even if we are praying in Coptic, nobody is out of the loop as to what is being said and what it means. If you are going to use liturgical languages that differ from the modern spoken language, you should have at least that, as well as lessons in the liturgical language, to the extent that you are able. (My parish was too small for Coptic lessons, but they're common in all the larger parishes and monasteries I've been to; in monasteries in particular, they can be quite intensive, since more Coptic is generally used in monasteries.)

 

[Knee V]

I do understand that at one time Latin was the de facto linuga franca of Western Europe, and it made sense for Latin to be the de facto language of the Church, which helped to unite otherwise disparate people. The East was the same with the Greek language, so that point is not lost on me. However, the way I see it, in both East and West the Roman Empire is gone, and Latin and Greek do not serve the same function they once served. I am certainly not opposed to services being conducted in those language, and I do just fine in a Greek liturgy. However, given the choice between regular Greek liturgies and regular English liturgies, I will choose regular English liturgies.

 

[thecolorsblend]

I certainly understand the draw of the TLM over the NO Mass, and it frankly makes me happy to see how popular it is becoming with younger Catholics.

As a cultural aside, I don't see why that liturgy couldn't be translated into a high form of the vernacular.

In a certain sense, it has. I've been known to attend Mass at a (relatively) nearby Anglican-Use parish. Their liturgy obviously descends from the Anglican BCP. But a lot of the phraseology is essentially a high form translation of elements of the TLM.

 

[archer75]

For many of us, there is a continuity, beauty, changelessness, a connection to a 2,000 year old past in Liturgy, an ability to express theological ideas in terms which may be more subtle or specific than what the vernacular allows for, etc.

Additionally, if you listen closely, and take time to learn, it's often not hard to begin to understand what you hear, and begin to understand if not speak the language you're hearing.

I think every Apostolic Church has liturgies / masses in a liturgical language as at least an option. Like Aramaic, Coptic, Ge'ez, Latin, Old Church Slavonic, Koine Greek, and others. I think initially, even Anglicans used Latin.

When I looked into the RCC, I sought out a Tridentine Mass in Latin not out of any special love for Latin, but because I knew it was the form of the mass that many of my ancestors had attended for centuries, and I had never done so.

While we EO generally have our services in the local language (or at least one closely related to it), sometimes we can be sticklers for the form of the liturgy itself. Although we used to have plenty of liturgical variation, now we have rather little, and sometimes people express a lot of dislike for the fact that some parishes use a Western rite instead of our usual Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

I hear what you're saying, and it makes sense to me. The OTHER end also makes sense to me--"why have a service in a language people don't understand?" And there is a spectrum of situations and thoughts on those situations.

Of course, it's perfectly easy to pay no attention even if the liturgy is in a language you readily understand, so no reason to pretend that's some kind of cure-all!

 

[Julian of Norwich]

I listened more/watched more closely in the Latin TLM than I did in the English Novus Ordo.

 

[JM]

This explains why young Catholic traditionalist like myself like the latin mass.

I'm not Catholic but I really love the Latin Mass, or any old Rite Mass, including a good ol' fashion Sarum Rite Mass!

My heart belongs to the Book of Common Prayer liturgy through.

Do you ever watch the Latin Mass on YouTube?

Yours in the Lord,

jm