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Why can't the Orthodox be considered the One True Church?

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by Cis.jd, Jan 11, 2019 at 9:00 PM.

  1. Cis.jd

    Cis.jd Well-Known Member

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    Why can't the Orthodox be considered the One True Church along with the Roman Catholic Church?

    I've been interested in Orthodoxy, mainly because in this forum this denomination seems to be the most closest to a Catholic. In the sections where all denominations meet, Catholics and the EO would normally be on the same side of the argument 8/10 times.

    I've talked to several priests and none of them deny the legitimacy of their apostolic tradition, all priests and catholic devotes i've spoken to say that their church was also founded by St Peter.... to some it was that they "where on the wrong side" during the schism.

    When I looked into their theology, they seemed nearly identical to us just semantically different. Even their views on Papal infallibility (while obviously at odds) seemed almost related to their Synods. Maybe to them, since there was more than 1 with in Jesus main apostle then more than 1 lead a church... that view makes sense, however we make sense as well with the Pope because Peter was the "big brother" type of apostle. I can see both views having good points on certain disagreements.

    Anyway, what do you think. Is the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church just Rome or are we two of the missing pieces of this One true church?
     
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  2. StevenMerten

    StevenMerten I Love You, God!

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    Hello Cis,

    All "united" groups need one person to choose the direction in which all members of the group will be compelled to go. Almost all organizations, companies, countries, clubs, militaries, religions etc. put one man in unequaled authority over all the rest of their group members and it is this authority which unites them in the direction they all will go. (NAB MAT 12:25) "A kingdom torn by strife is headed for its downfall. A town or household split into factions cannot last for long." Twelve Apostles with equal authority equals twelve Churches (I exaggerate a little). More than one person in unequaled authority in a group, makes more than one group.

    To unite His people, Jesus has put one man, in one position, over all His flock. Pope Francis sits in St. Peter's chair and he is the only man in possession of the Holy Spirit of ultimate human authority over Christ's Church at this point in time. Pope Francis' authority has been handed down from the hand of St. Peter by the sworn Word of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Matthew 16:13 Peter the Rock.
    When Jesus came to the neighborhood of Ceasarea Philippi, he asked his disciples this question: "Who do people say that the Son of Man is? They replied, "Some say John the Baptizer, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." "And you," he said to them, "who do you say that I am?" "You are the Messiah," Simon Peter answered, "the Son of the living God!" Jesus replied, "Blest are you, Simon son of John! No mere man has revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. I for my part declare to you, you are 'Rock', and on this rock I will build my church, and the jaws of death shall not prevail against it. I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
     
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  3. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Orthodox Churches are true Churches. They got this schism thing going on, which we would be happy to have ended this evening even. They have valid sacraments and we belong together.
     
  4. Rhamiel

    Rhamiel Member of the Round Table

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    When you read the epistles you see that the basis of the Church is not just correct belief, it is also based in unity, I believe you said in another thread that you came from a Protestant background, so institutional unity among all Christians was never really a something you experienced, really in a pluralistic society none of us has experienced that.
    But in the epistles it is understood, John, Jude, and Peter were able to address the entire Church in their epistles, breaks in unity hurt the ability for the Church proclaim the Good News to those outside of it and confuses the faithful within it
     
  5. Cis.jd

    Cis.jd Well-Known Member

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    While I can't disagree with you (i too believe that a true church depends on the person with in), on a theological and academical sense (or simply on paper) the only ones who are more true to what the Apostles taught are the RCC and the Orthodox. If we could only get EO members here to discuss to make this interesting.
     
  6. StevenMerten

    StevenMerten I Love You, God!

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    Hello Cis,
    It is all good, until there is a disagreement. As long as the Orthodox Patriarch submits to the Authority of St. Peter in the Pope, then it is all good. If the Patriarch does not submit to the unequaled authority of the Chair of St. Peter, then we have schism and two, not one, Church.

    Jesus' desires unequaled authority in one person, in one chair, St. Peter's Chair. When we have that, Christ's Church is united. When we have two leaders thinking they have equal authority, we are not united.
     
  7. Cis.jd

    Cis.jd Well-Known Member

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    Great point.
    Just to brush up on my history here. But before the schism, did we all agree to one Pope?
     
  8. Cis.jd

    Cis.jd Well-Known Member

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    Great point as well.. but how about "Paul". Paul and Peter seemed to have equal reverence and both where leaders of the church wouldn't this be seen as two people leading a church?
     
  9. StevenMerten

    StevenMerten I Love You, God!

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    Are you talking about anti-popes in Catholic history?
     
  10. StevenMerten

    StevenMerten I Love You, God!

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    CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: List of Popes

    The above is a list of Popes back to St. Peter. In hind site, we always only had one Pope in control of Jesus' Church at any period in time. At the time of anti-popes that may have looked different.
     
  11. StevenMerten

    StevenMerten I Love You, God!

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    St. Paul admonished St. Peter, publicly, but he was never equal to St. Peter, in Christ give authority over Christ's Church.
     
  12. Cis.jd

    Cis.jd Well-Known Member

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    not just anti-popes, but just popes who shouldn't have been popes due to bad wisdom or maybe even some immoral acts like anti-semitism. I'm just trying to find some rationality that may have caused the EO's to reject papal authority because I do see the rational in your post about having to have 1 leader.

    We don't have more than 1 president either, nor more than 1 king in the land so you explained very well.

    But, maybe Pope Victor (and a few others) made some mistakes that caused the EO to reject Papal authority as infallible. Even Catholic theologians have critiqued on Victor's wisdom?
     
  13. Rhamiel

    Rhamiel Member of the Round Table

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    The Bishop of Rome was seen as first among equals, but the Patriarchs of Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch and latter Constantinople were also seen as prominent Bishops along with the Patriarch of Rome, this was sometimes called the Pentarchy (Greek for Rule of Five)

    I think there is enough proof that the Bishop of Rome had a special position even among the Five, but I do not pretend it is cut and dry
     
  14. StevenMerten

    StevenMerten I Love You, God!

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    Hello Csi,
    There were some Protestors, in Moses day, who felt that all Church leaders are equal. These Protestors, Korah, Dathan and Abiram, decided to lead God's Church back to Egypt, because things had been better there than living in the desert. The Protestors did not care if the Israelite Church split into a schism, some staying with Moses, others following them. The Protestors felt that all Church leaders were equal, and who was Moses to put himself over all the rest of the Church.

    Here is how God handled it.

    Numbers 16

    Korah, son of Izhar, son of Kohath, son of Levi [and Dathan and Abiram, sons of Eliab, son of Pallu, son of Reuben] took two hundred and fifty Israelites who were leaders in the community, members of the council and men of note. They stood before Moses and Aaron, to whom they said, "Enough from you! The whole community, all of them, are holy; the LORD is in their midst. Why then should you set yourselves over the LORD's congregation?"

    When Moses heard this, he fell prostrate. Then he said to Korah and to all his band, "May the LORD make known tomorrow morning who belongs to him and who is the holy one and whom he will have draw near to him! Whom he chooses, he will have draw near him. Do this: take your censers [Korah and all his band] and put fire in them and place incense in them before the LORD tomorrow. He whom the LORD then chooses is the holy one. Enough from you Levites!"

    Moses also said to Korah, "Listen to me, you Levites! Is it too little for you that God of Israel has singled you out from the community of Israel, to have you draw near him for the service of the LORD's Dwelling and to stand before the community to minister for them? He has allowed you and your kinsmen, the descendants of Levi, to approach him, and yet you now seek the priesthood too. It is therefore against the LORD that you and all your band are conspiring. For what has Aaron done that you should grumble against him?"

    Rebellion of Dathan and Abiram.
    Moses summoned Dathan and Abiram, sons of Eliab, but they answered, "We will not go. Are you not satisfied with having led us here away from a land flowing with milk and honey, to make us perish in the desert, that you must now lord it over us? Far from bringing us to a land flowing with milk and honey, or giving us fields and vineyards for our inheritance, will you also gouge out our eyes? No, we will not go."

    Then Moses became very angry and said to the LORD, "Pay no heed to their offering. I have never taken a single ass from them, nor have I wronged any one of them."
    Korah. Moses said to Korah, "You and all your band shall appear before the LORD tomorrow--you and they and Aaron too. Then each of your two hundred and fifty followers shall take his own censer, put incense in it, and offer it to the LORD; and you and Aaron, each with his own censer, shall do the same." So then all took their censers, and laying incense on the fire they had put in them, they took their stand by the entrance of the meeting tent, the glory of the LORD appeared to the entire community, and the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "Stand apart from this band, that I may consume them at once." But they fell prostrate and cried out, "O God, God of the spirits of all mankind, will one man's sin make you angry with the whole community?" The LORD answered Moses, "Speak to the community and tell them: Withdraw from the space around the Dwelling" [of Korah, Dathan and Abiram].

    Punishment of Dathan and Abiram. Moses, followed by the elders of Israel, arose and went to Dathan and Abrim. Then he warned the community, "Keep away from the tents of these wicked men and do not touch anything that is theirs: otherwise you too will be swept away because of all their sins." When Dathan and Abiram had come out and were standing at the entrance of their tents with their wives and sons and little ones, Moses said, "This is how you shall know that it was the LORD who sent me to do all that I have done, and that it was not I who planned it: if these men die an ordinary death, merely suffering the fate common to all mankind, then it was not the LORD who sent me. But if the LORD does something entirely new, and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them alive down into the nether world,with all belonging to them, then you will know that these men have defied the LORD." No sooner had he finished saying all this than the ground beneath them split open, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them and their families [and all of Korah's men] and all their possessions. They went down alive to the nether world with all belonging to them; the earth closed over them, and they perished from the community. But all the Israelites near them fled at their shrieks, saying, "The earth might swallow us too!"

    Jude 1:10
    These people, however, not only revile what they have no knowledge of but are corrupted through the very things they know by instinct, like brute animals. So much the worse for them! They have taken the road Cain took. They have abandoned themselves to Balaam's error for pay, and like Korah they perish in rebellion. These men are blotches on your Christian banquets. They are wild ocean waves, splashing their shameless deeds abroad like foam, or shooting stars for whom the thick gloom of darkness has been reserved forever.
    Numbers 16 continued: Punishment of Korah.
    So they withdrew from the space around the Dwelling [of Korah, Dathan and Abiram]. And fire from the LORD came forth which consumed the two hundred and fifty men who were offering the incense.

    The LORD said to Moses, "Tell Eleazar, son of Aaron the priest, to remove the censers from the embers; and scatter the fire some distance away, for these sinners have consecrated the censers at the cost of their lives. Have them hammered into plates to cover the altar, because in being presented before the LORD they have become sacred. In this way they shall serve as a sign to the Israelites." So Eleazar the priest had the bronze censers of those burned during the offering hammered into a covering for the altar, in keeping with the orders which the LORD had given him through Moses. This cover was to be a reminder to the Israelites that no layman, no one who was not a descendant of Aaron, should approach the altar to offer incense before the LORD, lest he meet the fate of Korah and his band.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019 at 3:06 PM
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  15. Rhamiel

    Rhamiel Member of the Round Table

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    Very good point, our allegiance is to Christ first and sometimes we have to reprimand our superiors, but that does not mean they are not our superiors
     
  16. StevenMerten

    StevenMerten I Love You, God!

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    Hello Csi,
    Jesus', while He was alive, was a Jew of the Jewish Church. Jesus made it perfectly clear that the Pharisees sat in Moses Chair, as a Pope sits in St. Peter's Chair. Jesus made it perfectly clear that His Followers were to respect and obey the authority of Moses, represented in the Pharisees of His day.

    Then Jesus went on to say how evil the Pharisees, who had God's unequaled authority in Jesus' Jewish Church, were.

    Matthew 23:2
    Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, 'The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice.'

    Matthew 23:29
    Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the memorials of the righteous, and you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have joined them in shedding the prophets blood. Thus you bear witness against yourselves that you are the children of those who murdered the prophets; now fill up what your ancestors measured out! You serpents, you brood of vipers, how can you flee from the judgment of Gehenna? Therefore, behold, I send to you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and pursue from town to town, so that there may come upon you all the righteous blood shed upon earth, from the righteous blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Amen, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her young under her wings, but you were unwilling! Behold, your house will be abandoned, desolate.
     
  17. Cis.jd

    Cis.jd Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your replies. Very well information here. :oldthumbsup:
     
  18. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Peter is not the Messiah. Of course. No Catholic would claim Peter was the Messiah. Nor that any successor to Peter could be Messiah either.

    But you miss the very context on Peter's name that you want to explain to us. Your claim is that Jesus renamed Simon a pebble. Not really. It's just that in John 1:42 Jesus called Simon by the name of 'Cephas', an Aramaic word that means 'stone'.

    The Aramaic word 'Cephas' is the determinant. And the name 'Cephas' was not a gendered name. Koine Greek was a crude dialect of Greek, but it did have genders and you had to have a male name for a male. Simon, being male, could not have been called 'Petra', but had to be called 'Peter' because the gender of his name had to agree with the gender of his person. Gender was a much more rigid thing than it has become today. The gender agreement is more relevant than the meaning of pebble vs a large rock.

    Point is that making Simon Peter out to be a pebble rather than some other size of rock is a linguistic mistake. Jesus called him Cephas, that is rock. Jesus may have also called him Petros, and if He did, it was to get the gender to match rather than to distinguish any size of rock. Or to distinguish Peter from the foundation of the Church. For the Church really was built upon Peter, which is what Jesus did say and mean. The other options are either double meanings (which are fine) or are attempts to minimize what Jesus said to agree with post-Reformation theologies.
     
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  19. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The patriarch bishop of Rome was first among equals among the bishops for all Christians.

    The word 'pope' comes from the word 'papa' and thus there were and still are many who could be called 'pope' in various parts of Christianity. The Copts refer to their patriarch as a 'pope' for example, but they in essence mean 'patriarch' by the term. There was only one 'first among equals' and that was the bishop of Rome. Of course the Orthodox had to throw out that part of their tradition to maintain their schism.
     
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  20. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    They are both considered as pillars of the Church in Rome, although neither was the founder. Apparently some Jewish Christians very early on started up a church in Rome and both Peter and Paul ministered there but did not start it in Rome.

    Peter is the head even though Paul was a huge player there. The ancient lists of popes all have Peter and not Paul as the first on the list.
     
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