Why can't God forgive human beings?

[skepticlogician]

Who said forgiveness can't require stipulations? If a husband cheats on his wife she might have a certain set of rules to add in their relationship in order for her to grant him forgiveness. The husband has wronged his wife so he should be expected to make some effort to make amends. Should she forgive him if he makes no effort at all?

That's the beauty of unconditional forgiveness, she doesn't have to forgive him. The husband wronged her and she would be in her full right not to want to forgive him... And sure, many wives come up with a number of rules in order to consider forgiving their husbands, but also many other wives just forgive their husbands unconditionally... and a lot of times that simple and silent action makes huge impacts to their husbands. Have you ever read Romans 12:20? That's a perfect description of what happens many times when unconditional forgiveness is implemented. As a teenager I did it a few times with bullies I would often encounter at school... it didn't always worked, sure, but for sure there were a couple that from being bullies they became sincere and dear friends. That's why I see unconditional forgiveness as superior.

Now of course our situation is much different with regards to God and our sin but this is only an example of how forgiveness isn't always free. In fact in most cases of forgiveness it requires the person who wronged someone to make an effort to make amends. Forgiveness is about not holding a grudge. Nobody said it has to be free.

Well, if that's really the reason and God really can't implement the type of pure unconditional forgiveness, it's very disappointing indeed to realize we can't expect that from such a (supposedly) majestic, pure, merciful, omniscient and noble being. No worries, my question is answered now. Thanks.

 

[skepticlogician]

well the best I can tell you is that you are in error as to what forgiveness is. I tried multiple times to explain the concept but you seem to have an understanding of forgiveness based in governmental legislation? which is sad because that is how many Christians view forgiveness. carry on.

I might've been in error as to what I thought forgiveness should be from the biblical perspective, but not as to what forgiveness is. I might've been in error thinking that there shouldn't be cheap derivatives of forgiveness with stipulations and conditions, I can grant you that, but I wasn't in error as to what unconditional forgiveness is. It shouldn't be surprising for you to see me expect such a pure version of what unconditional forgiveness is from a supposedly all-merciful, all-good, all-loving god. I guess I was wrong thinking that as well, and I'm fine with it. My question is answered, thanks.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

That's the beauty of unconditional forgiveness, she doesn't have to forgive him. The husband wronged her and she would be in her full right not to want to forgive him... And sure, many wives come up with a number of rules in order to consider forgiving their husbands, but also many other wives just forgive their husbands unconditionally... and a lot of times that simple and silent action makes huge impacts to their husbands.

...and this kind of forgiveness can also lead to further impacts upon the wife's face, and arms, and torso, and legs. Need I say more.

 

[Noxot]

I see forgiveness as something that can't be outside of the one who is forgiven. I don't think God gives enough forgiveness if he can't fill us up with it. I wish all were so willing to be filled with it. the best I can do is to try to overflow with it in myself as much as I can. i suppose I will become ever better in my capacity to forgive if I am joining myself to the one who is the source of infinite forgiveness.

if God is forgiveness itself then he himself is unconditional. only those who can't see the utmost beauty would be insane enough to not embrace and unite with it as much as they could. but I think all darkness that can't endure will melt away in this that I call God.

recently I was beat up by two thugs who tried to rob me. I forgive them but it does not mean I want them to go on in their evil ways because those ways are not good for them nor are they good for others. so all I can try to do is avoid evil doers and try to not partake of evils.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That's the beauty of unconditional forgiveness, she doesn't have to forgive him. The husband wronged her and she would be in her full right not to want to forgive him... And sure, many wives come up with a number of rules in order to consider forgiving their husbands, but also many other wives just forgive their husbands unconditionally... and a lot of times that simple and silent action makes huge impacts to their husbands. Have you ever read Romans 12:20? That's a perfect description of what happens many times when unconditional forgiveness is implemented. As a teenager I did it a few times with bullies I would often encounter at school... it didn't always worked, sure, but for sure there were a couple that from being bullies they became sincere and dear friends. That's why I see unconditional forgiveness as superior.



Well, if that's really the reason and God really can't implement the type of pure unconditional forgiveness, it's very disappointing indeed to realize we can't expect that from such a (supposedly) majestic, pure, merciful, omniscient and noble being. No worries, my question is answered now. Thanks.

So if you don't believe in the bible after 30 years of believing why are you here on a Christian forum? I'm just curious what your motivation is for coming here if you don't believe.

 

[skepticlogician]

...and this kind of forgiveness can also lead to further impacts upon the wife's face, and arms, and torso, and legs. Need I say more.

Right, because that's what happens always with that kind of forgiveness, it never works. And forgiveness with rules gives you back a wonderful and faithful husband... how couldn't I see that before?

... pathetic.

 

[skepticlogician]

So if you don't believe in the bible after 30 years of believing why are you here on a Christian forum? I'm just curious what your motivation is for coming here if you don't believe.

Because that was pretty much my whole life before, and still surrounded by friends and family that are believers. Plus, unlike many believers, I actually care about honesty and facts, valid arguments and truth can come from anywhere... even from this christian forum. If theism or christianity actually has the tiniest shed of evidence or a believer has an argument that is remotely interesting and even potentially valid, I want to know about it. When I talk to my believer friends and family, I want to understand where they come from, what type of arguments are the ones that actually have convinced them... Heck, if god actually exists and some believer has proof or evidence of it, I want to hear about it. I don't fear truth, I welcome it... but I'm also not gullible, you have to have a valid and logic argument. Telling me to go away is not going to convince me of theism... but a very good argument might, who knows.

 

[Serving Zion]

Hello OP, I believe this post that has just appeared could be useful to you. He has attached a PDF transcript that I have only skimmed over, not read and digested, but this part jumped out as especially relevant to this thread of yours:

There is nothing as bad as putting to death an innocent man who is the only begotten Son of God. You can murder someone who is totally innocent, but to murder and torture the only begotten Son of God is worse. The point I'm trying to make is there is nothing you have done in your life as bad as what these men did to Christ, yet they were forgiven before they even finished the crime. Why wouldn't God have been doing that for you your whole life? I would like to suggest to you that He has been doing that. God has never made a record of anything you have ever done. The record has been made by you and I. That is what I want to talk about next.

I would be interested to look more closely at any issues you might find within it. I hope it helps, as it does seem that it should

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Right, because that's what happens always with that kind of forgiveness, it never works. And forgiveness with rules gives you back a wonderful and faithful husband... how couldn't I see that before?

... pathetic.

So, do you not think there should be some level of accountability that plays a role in the overall process of forgiveness? Or do you instead think we should just all forgive each other by simply fiat?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Right, because that's what happens always with that kind of forgiveness, it never works. And forgiveness with rules gives you back a wonderful and faithful husband... how couldn't I see that before?

... pathetic.

One other thing: what is your method for forgiving a 'Gaslighter'?

 

[skepticlogician]

So, do you not think there should be some level of accountability that plays a role in the overall process of forgiveness? Or do you instead think we should just all forgive each other by simply fiat?

Depends on each case. See, here's the thing, when I initially posed the question "why can't god forgive human beings?", I posed it from the perspective of either a wrong doer that does it either by ignorance or by mistake (as one can exemplify with the father-son analogies that have been posted). Granted, I forgot to apply the same reasoning and consider this in the context of an actual evil wrong doer that just dares god, spits on his direction and is intentionally opposite to god. So, the examples you are using are clearly problematic if one wants to contemplate unconditional forgiveness in such cases, I acknowledge that now. But you are committing the mistake of going all the way to the other extreme. You are now trashing down unconditional forgiveness and basically saying that forgiveness should only be considered in a conditional context, and that unconditional forgiveness doesn't work, which is clearly mistaken.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Depends on each case. See, here's the thing, when I initially posed the question "why can't god forgive human beings?", I posed it from the perspective of either a wrong doer that does it either by ignorance or by mistake (as one can exemplify with the father-son analogies that have been posted). Granted, I forgot to apply the same reasoning and consider this in the context of an actual evil wrong doer that just dares god, spits on his direction and is intentionally opposite to god. So, the examples you are using are clearly problematic if one wants to contemplate unconditional forgiveness in such cases, I acknowledge that now. But you are committing the mistake of going all the way to the other extreme. You are now trashing down unconditional forgiveness and basically saying that forgiveness should only be considered in a conditional context, and that unconditional forgiveness doesn't work, which is clearly mistaken.

Well, again, does accountability play a role in the process of forgiveness? I'm simply saying that in the context of Christianity and in light of God's Being, it does. By contrast, I do understand that in the face of the typical axioms supporting the ethical framework which upholds the modern democratic, human rights regime, such a thing as "forgiveness without accountability" MIGHT be something we could dole out every one in a while on a civic level, assuming that we know for a fact that the one at fault wasn't at any point culpable for his or her actions. But, that's another can of worms we can keep shut since I'm sure you're just here to consider the quality of the forgiveness that comes through Jesus Christ and not all of the other ethical details.

You've already given some concession that some additional details may need to be factored in, so I'm not going to press you to come to some conclusion. Sometimes, it just good to go through the exercise of thinking about it all.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Depends on each case. See, here's the thing, when I initially posed the question "why can't god forgive human beings?", I posed it from the perspective of either a wrong doer that does it either by ignorance or by mistake (as one can exemplify with the father-son analogies that have been posted). Granted, I forgot to apply the same reasoning and consider this in the context of an actual evil wrong doer that just dares god, spits on his direction and is intentionally opposite to god. So, the examples you are using are clearly problematic if one wants to contemplate unconditional forgiveness in such cases, I acknowledge that now. But you are committing the mistake of going all the way to the other extreme. You are now trashing down unconditional forgiveness and basically saying that forgiveness should only be considered in a conditional context, and that unconditional forgiveness doesn't work, which is clearly mistaken.

Additionally: Sure, I could be mistaken. There may be times when just giving unconditional forgiveness could be a useful thing. But in that case, I wouldn't call it 'forgiveness,' rather I'd call that 'forbearance,' or maybe even 'love.'

Also, in a Christian sense, the act of forgiveness isn't something that is done in isolation from all of the other virtues of love, mercy and grace, among others. So, just because I say things like "accountability should come into play," doesn't mean that we are discounting situations where we will see the wisdom of going really 'easy' on someone who disobeyed some rule or disrupted a relationship.

 

[skepticlogician]

Hello skepticlogician, I would like to preface my response to your inquiry with some gratefulness.. first of all, the patience and love you have for your son. I only imagine how challenging it must be, but truly, the way your heart responds to his tests just works to reinforce my faith in humanity. I too often see parents that condescend and unreasonably punish their children, but here you are making every effort of self-sacrifice, to afford him the basic rights to love that he deserves as a child.

It has been very difficult indeed. There is a lot of leisure activities that we as parents have renounced for many years now, but that's way far from being the challenging part.

It really moves me bro, and I am going to pray for you too, that The Holy Spirit will become more present in your family so that these tests can become less demanding

Your gesture appears to be sincere indeed, so, even as a non-believer, I will go ahead and say that I appreciate your gesture.

.. but secondly, I am grateful because I have known of your activity on this board for a while, and for a while I have wanted to engage with you in a serious discussion. The reason for this, is that you do have a great grasp on logic, and I do too. It is my hope that through discussion, I can assist you to understand Jesus the way He was and is, the way the authors of the bible have put it, and to lift your mind away from the place where you are presently right to object to it all. I say this because what I see in what you have been taught, amounts to a strawman of what Christianity really is.

Well, this is actually quite complex, and now I realize it more than ever. Like I mentioned to a different member on a different thread, the number of different varieties of christianity that exist out there as well as in this forum is quite vast. I'm starting to see it as a pretty wide spectrum. What I'm trying to say is that is very likely that what you see as a strawman version of christianity is actually the bulk of the position of a number of christian denominations out there and they could very well say that your position is the strawman.

With that in mind, plus the fact that as a non-believer I would first ask for a demonstration that the bible is actually the word of god, I apologize but I don't think I will address the rest of your biblical explanation. I will definitively go over it for my own curiosity and instruction. See, to me the bible could very well be perfectly consistent internally and yet that wouldn't be evidence of it being either true or the word of god. Any fiction writer can come up with a great story that is consistent all the way across from all kinds of angles, yet, that story doesn't stop being merely a work of fiction. My original intention with the question in the OP of this thread was to analyze the issue more from a logical position in combination with the definition and use of the word forgiveness. I see now that the many different points of view from the different versions of christianity make this quite a huge task to attempt to cover in any degree of completeness... I have learned a lot, no doubt about it, and this will help me analyze future questions with this wide spectrum of christianities in mind. Cheers!

 

[Serving Zion]

It has been very difficult indeed. There is a lot of leisure activities that we as parents have renounced for many years now, but that's way far from being the challenging part.



Your gesture appears to be sincere indeed, so, even as a non-believer, I will go ahead and say that I appreciate your gesture.



Well, this is actually quite complex, and now I realize it more than ever. Like I mentioned to a different member on a different thread, the number of different varieties of christianity that exist out there as well as in this forum is quite vast. I'm starting to see it as a pretty wide spectrum. What I'm trying to say is that is very likely that what you see as a strawman version of christianity is actually the bulk of the position of a number of christian denominations out there and they could very well say that your position is the strawman.

With that in mind, plus the fact that as a non-believer I would first ask for a demonstration that the bible is actually the word of god, I apologize but I don't think I will address the rest of your biblical explanation. I will definitively go over it for my own curiosity and instruction. See, to me the bible could very well be perfectly consistent internally and yet that wouldn't be evidence of it being either true or the word of god. Any fiction writer can come up with a great story that is consistent all the way across from all kinds of angles, yet, that story doesn't stop being merely a work of fiction. My original intention with the question in the OP of this thread was to analyze the issue more from a logical position in combination with the definition and use of the word forgiveness. I see now that the many different points of view from the different versions of christianity make this quite a huge task to attempt to cover in any degree of completeness... I have learned a lot, no doubt about it, and this will help me analyze future questions with this wide spectrum of christianities in mind. Cheers!

Thanks for the update. I understand that I wrote a lot to digest, but I would like to know how your thoughts are after you have considered it, because truth is intrinsically consistent. I have conducted significant investigative analysis to identify and refine the doctrines I had formerly been taught, that I have identified as causing inconsistencies, and I have mentioned a couple of them to you. After learning of the extent of deception that is prevalent because of those critical flaws, I am eager to share my findings whenever it can be useful

Meanwhile, stay cool and simply trust in God's goodness - that by itself could save you from hypertension!

 

[Forgive 70 times 7]

To clarify, I'm referring to forgiveness according to the actual definition of forgiveness, as in not seeking retribution or punishment for a wrong done to you.

I mean, we, humans do it quite a lot, from the smallest, as in 'someone cutting off in front of your car in traffic' to the most serious, as in 'your son insulting/hitting you without justification' or even 'forgiving a spouse's infidelity'. I'm not saying that everybody does it, obviously, the number of people who actually forgive in the real sense of the word, is probably not huge, but the point is that those few people, they really do it, people really can forgive without the wrong being alleviated in any way...

Why can't god do the same? Why is punishment a requirement in god's "forgiveness"? The whole idea of atonement or requiring 'someone' to pay or to be punished so that god can grant forgiveness to the guilty party... that is not real forgiveness, why can't god truly forgive the human?

God alredy forgive them before foundation of the world
1 John 4:17

Jesus paid in full price on cross for all sin with his own blood , you only decide if you want to go to heaven with him or if you don't want him .
1 John 2:2
2 Corinthians 5:21

Gospel of salvation is here 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

God is Holy and Just , he can't validate his nature to forgive you without consequences . He provided a way to escape judgement by his son Jesus Christ , it's not what you do but what he did for you
Ephesians 2:8-9

God forgives everybody who come to his son , but if person hates God even heaven would be hell for him .

 

[Hawkins]

To clarify, I'm referring to forgiveness according to the actual definition of forgiveness, as in not seeking retribution or punishment for a wrong done to you.

I mean, we, humans do it quite a lot, from the smallest, as in 'someone cutting off in front of your car in traffic' to the most serious, as in 'your son insulting/hitting you without justification' or even 'forgiving a spouse's infidelity'. I'm not saying that everybody does it, obviously, the number of people who actually forgive in the real sense of the word, is probably not huge, but the point is that those few people, they really do it, people really can forgive without the wrong being alleviated in any way...

Why can't god do the same? Why is punishment a requirement in god's "forgiveness"? The whole idea of atonement or requiring 'someone' to pay or to be punished so that god can grant forgiveness to the guilty party... that is not real forgiveness, why can't god truly forgive the human?

Forgiveness is based on repentance. If you have 10 kids, a murderer killed one of them ans swears that he will kill all of your kids. Will you forgive him at the moment when he swears to kill the rest. There is no base for forgiveness here until the murder stopped the killing and regret and beg for your forgiveness. It's then forgiveness stands valid.

When that murderer stands trial, he's sentenced to death as he murdered your son. It's about Law. Your forgiveness can't do much about his sentence unless someone has the authority to grant him a pardon from his death sentence. The queen of England has the authority to grant pardons to those sentenced to death but citizens of the United Kingdom. Similarly, Jesus is the King who has the authority to grant such a pardon. However it comes with a huge price, which is He's crucified in order to gain that authority. He however doesn't choose to grant it to all unconditionally for a reason. He grant the pardon only to those who are willing to repent, and those who have faith in God and Christ (such that they can live with God in eternity).

In a nutshell, God has His reasons to grant the pardon conditionally. It is define legally and lawfully in the New Covenant that only those repented and have faith in Jesus Christ will receive the pardon. It actually makes sense to bar certain ones from reaching heaven, or else what happens on earth may repeat in heaven and heaven will just be another earth. Only the 'bad guys' are removed that the heaven can be free from human sins.

Moreover, it's wrong concept to think that everyone is a son of God. No, only those saved in the end are sons and daughters of God. There's always difference between the sheep and wolves, the wheat and weeds.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Because that was pretty much my whole life before, and still surrounded by friends and family that are believers. Plus, unlike many believers, I actually care about honesty and facts, valid arguments and truth can come from anywhere... even from this christian forum. If theism or christianity actually has the tiniest shed of evidence or a believer has an argument that is remotely interesting and even potentially valid, I want to know about it. When I talk to my believer friends and family, I want to understand where they come from, what type of arguments are the ones that actually have convinced them... Heck, if god actually exists and some believer has proof or evidence of it, I want to hear about it. I don't fear truth, I welcome it... but I'm also not gullible, you have to have a valid and logic argument. Telling me to go away is not going to convince me of theism... but a very good argument might, who knows.

No no brother that is not my intention at all. I'm not saying at all that I want you to leave the forum. I asked why you are here just so you might ask yourself why you are here. I wasn't sure of your intentions. If it was to attempt to convince others who believe to renounce their faith or if it was because your still looking for answers and ways to still believe. I believe it is the latter. I've often had times where I had to try to find ways to make excuses to support what the bible says in order to see its teachings as not being a contradiction of itself. One example is when I first read the bible and in Samuel God apologized to Samuel for making Saul king. At first that absolutely shocked me because my first thought was that it suggested that God had made a mistake. I absolutely couldn't agree with that. But then I thought about how God could say that and still not be a contradiction. The best assumption I came up with was perhaps what God meant was I'm sorry for making Saul king but at the time out of all the people in the world Saul was the best candidate that offered the best outcome in the end. Since men are never perfect no matter who God would've chosen all of them would've failed at some point and Saul was the best one to bring about the best possible outcome. The bible doesn't give us all the answers and my assumption might not be correct but because of my faith I try to find ways to see how things like this can happen and still not contradict the bible. I don't hold these ideas as being truth but instead they help me to see that there are ways that this could be true and not contradict the bible's teachings. So it helps me to understand that even tho the answers aren't all in the bible it doesn't mean that the way we are perceiving it's teachings are always the way it's intended to be perceived. So I can take it on faith that it is correct even tho I don't fully understand how or why. I'd like to say a lot more but I have to get going today. Have a blessed day brother.

 

[Soyeong]

To clarify, I'm referring to forgiveness according to the actual definition of forgiveness, as in not seeking retribution or punishment for a wrong done to you.

I mean, we, humans do it quite a lot, from the smallest, as in 'someone cutting off in front of your car in traffic' to the most serious, as in 'your son insulting/hitting you without justification' or even 'forgiving a spouse's infidelity'. I'm not saying that everybody does it, obviously, the number of people who actually forgive in the real sense of the word, is probably not huge, but the point is that those few people, they really do it, people really can forgive without the wrong being alleviated in any way...

Why can't god do the same? Why is punishment a requirement in god's "forgiveness"? The whole idea of atonement or requiring 'someone' to pay or to be punished so that god can grant forgiveness to the guilty party... that is not real forgiveness, why can't god truly forgive the human?

The only way to cancel a debt is to pay it. For example, if a friend were to owe someone money, but they couldn't pay their debt, and you decided to help them out, then the only way for you to cancel that debt would be for you to pay it for them in their place. The same would be true if you were the holder of that debt. You couldn't simply wipe the books clean because the money that they owed you would still come out of your pocket. The wages of sin is death, so the only way for God to cancel that debt would be for Him to pay that debt for us in our place.

 

[FireDragon76]

I do not agree that "forgiveness is conditional"- that's manipulation, not forgiveness. Reconciliation is conditional, it's dependent on the cessation of ill-will between two persons. But I don't have to be reconciled to someone to forgive them.