Why Bible Doctrine

[Major1]

One of the things I have observed over my years of teaching the Bible is that a great majority of people simply do not follow Bible doctrine. They read it, they hear it and even understand it but just can not aceept it. The question then must be WHY????

The word "Doctrine" simply means instruction, as it applies to how we live. Doctrine then means in everyday language...…...teaching given to us by a source of authority.

1 Timothy 3:16 tells us...……..

"The Bible says of that it is “profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness” .

Bible doctrine helps us to know :
1). The will of God.
2). The character of God.
3). The way we can be saved from our sin.
4). How to operate the church.
5). What does God expect from us.

So then, when God has said something, and we read it, we understand it, why do we then reject what God said and do what we want to do and what we want to believe???? Why do we change the doctrines of God???

The answer is that our sinful natures do not easily submit to God’s decrees. The fact is that we as human beings do not like to be told what to do.

That is why we often pick and choose the parts of the Bible we are comfortable with and discard the rest. Or we replace what God says with a man-made doctrine or tradition.

Example":
God said that we shall not murder!

But we say, Abortion is not murder, it is freedom of choice.

You see, we as people tend to change the name and apply what we want to do instead of what God says we should not do.

Example:
God said in Lev. 20:13...….
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination:"

But we say, it is called GAY. That sounds better and acceptable.

2nd Timothy 4:3...……..
“For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.”

My point is that the time Paul told us would come in that Scripture is now HERE!

 

[eleos1954]

One of the things I have observed over my years of teaching the Bible is that a great majority of people simply do not follow Bible doctrine. They read it, they hear it and even understand it but just can not aceept it. The question then must be WHY????

The word "Doctrine" simply means instruction, as it applies to how we live. Doctrine then means in everyday language...…...teaching given to us by a source of authority.

1 Timothy 3:16 tells us...……..

"The Bible says of that it is “profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness” .

Bible doctrine helps us to know :
1). The will of God.
2). The character of God.
3). The way we can be saved from our sin.
4). How to operate the church.
5). What does God expect from us.

So then, when God has said something, and we read it, we understand it, why do we then reject what God said and do what we want to do and what we want to believe???? Why do we change the doctrines of God???

The answer is that our sinful natures do not easily submit to God’s decrees. The fact is that we as human beings do not like to be told what to do.

That is why we often pick and choose the parts of the Bible we are comfortable with and discard the rest. Or we replace what God says with a man-made doctrine or tradition.

Example":
God said that we shall not murder!

But we say, Abortion is not murder, it is freedom of choice.

You see, we as people tend to change the name and apply what we want to do instead of what God says we should not do.

Example:
God said in Lev. 20:13...….
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination:"

But we say, it is called GAY. That sounds better and acceptable.

2nd Timothy 4:3...……..
“For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.”

My point is that the time Paul told us would come in that Scripture is now HERE!

Difficult watching prophesies unfold.

Even so ... come Lord Jesus! Amen

 

[redleghunter]

One of the things I have observed over my years of teaching the Bible is that a great majority of people simply do not follow Bible doctrine. They read it, they hear it and even understand it but just can not aceept it. The question then must be WHY????

Approach has a huge impact as well. What I mean is we can (1) draw the truth out from Scriptures or (2) approach the Scriptures with a preconception reading this into the text.

 

[Kenny'sID]

So then, when God has said something, and we read it, we understand it, why do we then reject what God said and do what we want to do and what we want to believe???? Why do we change the doctrines of God???

Simple...we want to.

And we can even convince ourselves what God is very clear is necessary, is not necessary at all, why? Because we can, God won't stop us.

It still boils down to one thing, do it his way, reap the rewards, or don't and reap the opposite.

 

[Major1]

Simple...we want to.

And we can even convince ourselves what God is very clear is necessary, is not necessary at all, why? Because we can, God won't stop us.

It still boils down to one thing, do it his way, reap the rewards, or don't and reap the opposite.

Absolutely correct Kenny!

 

[Major1]

Difficult watching prophesies unfold.

Even so ... come Lord Jesus! Amen

Difficult or "exciting" ?

We are in the midst of the most exciting event in history IMO.

 

[eleos1954]

Difficult or "exciting" ?

We are in the midst of the most exciting event in history IMO.

Exciting in knowing the return of our Lord is near ... difficult watching the world falling apart and all the atrocities.

Even so .... come Lord Jesus!

 

[ExTiff]

Example":
God said that we shall not murder!

But we say, Abortion is not murder, it is freedom of choice.

You see, we as people tend to change the name and apply what we want to do instead of what God says we should not do.

Example:
God said in Lev. 20:13...….
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination:"

But we say, it is called GAY. That sounds better and acceptable.

It is not as simple as you seem to suggest though, is it.

Example":
God said that we shall not murder!

But we say, Abortion is not murder, it is freedom of choice.

You see, we as people tend to change the name and apply what we want to do instead of what God says we should not do.

But we say, war is different. If the Government wants us to kill 'Gooks' in Viet Nam, that's OK.
If the Govt. pays an executioner to kill people they say are 'convicted killers', whether they had a fair trial or not, that's OK.
If you killed a 'Red Indian', that was, at one time, in the wild West, OK.
If you kill a North Keorean, 'Rusky', Gay rights protester, whatever, that would also be OK in certain circumstances, as far as some 'Bible believing', 'Christians' are concerned.

Misapplication of scripture is by no means restricted to those who we label 'sinners'. We sometimes even do it ourselves unwittingly. The only antidote to hypocricy of this kind is "Knowing the mind of Christ", not selectively quoting Bible verses from both Old and New Testaments and making them say only what we say they say.

Example:
God said in Lev. 20:13...….
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination:"

But we say, it is called GAY. That sounds better and acceptable.

Do you eat lobster, eels, shellfish? You don't have to, but if you do it is an 'Abomination'. Do you eat pork, bacon, gammon? You don't have to, but that also is an abomination.

How many Bible believing Christians are as careful to avoid these 'Abominations'?

These six things doth the Lord hate:
yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
A proud look, a lying tongue,
and hands that shed innocent blood,
An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations,
feet that be swift in running to mischief,
A false witness that speaketh lies,
and he that soweth discord among brethren.

But which one of these seven abominations to God is in addition to the list of six?

What this says is that, for a fact, we don't know exactly how many things are an abomination to God. Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

So simply labeling someone as a 'sinful abomination doer', because they have fallen in love with someone of their own gender, (a thing that you have so far been fortunate enough not to happen to you), is as irrational as pretending to oneself that none of the above abominations have ever even entered your head, let alone been contemplated at one time or another in your life.

We don't have to do any of these things, but sure as 'eggs is eggs', human beings will do them, and when they do most of them the results are abominable to us, (who don't do them), and to God.

Going through life pretending that we haven't, and don't ever do any of these things, and never ever will, is not, walking the way Jesus did though, and we are called upon, as His disciples, to be like He was, and walk the way He did.

It was the sinful tax collector that acknowledged his abominations and admitted his inability to please God, that "went away justified", not the righteous Pharisee who fasted regularly, gave alms and thought himself lawfully righteous enough for God's approval.
.

 

[ExTiff]

So then, when God has said something, and we read it, we understand it, why do we then reject what God said and do what we want to do and what we want to believe???? Why do we change the doctrines of God???

The answer is that our sinful natures do not easily submit to God’s decrees. The fact is that we as human beings do not like to be told what to do.

That is why we often pick and choose the parts of the Bible we are comfortable with and discard the rest. Or we replace what God says with a man-made doctrine or tradition.

It is not that I actually disagree with "Doing what we read in the Bible concerning living like THE WAY told us to live". That much is fine, but . . . . .

What about the main bulk of the scriptures, are you going to ignore them? You can't actually "Do them", and some of the stories are about people 'Doing things' which were most definitely WRONG. Not at all things that we should do, just because the bible tells us God told someone to do it, a long time ago.

And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: Deut 7:2.

Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. Num.31:17-18.

And how do I "Do" this? :

I am black and beautiful,
O daughters of Jerusalem,
like the tents of Kedar,
like the curtains of Solomon. Song 1:5.

Most of the Bible is songs, stories, poetry, history, and prophesy. Very little of it is actually telling anyone how to behave. Most of it provides 'examples' of both good and bad behaviour. A wise person knows which behaviour it is recommending we should emulate. A foolish person does not know right from wrong and may think they can do anything God told anyone to do 'in the Bible'.

It is like sport to a fool to do wrong,
but wise conduct is pleasure to a man of understanding. Prov.10:23.

And anyhow, you seem to be reducing the Bible and understanding what is written in it, to a mere bunch of "Rules" which if followed will "Give you life". That's not how it works though, is it.

The Bible is a Book that teaches us that 'Believing God' is not the same as 'Believing IN God', and it is the former not the latter that we are constantly, told in the Bible, to do.

Numbers 14:11, Deuteronomy 1:32, Isaiah 43:10, Mark 1:15, John 1:12, John 6:29, John 9:35, John 14:1, John 20:31, Acts of the apostles 8:37, Acts of the apostles 27:25, 2 Corinthians 4:4, 1 Thessalonians 2:13. James 2:19, 1 Peter 1:21.

.

 

[Major1]

It is not as simple as you seem to suggest though, is it.



But we say, war is different. If the Government wants us to kill 'Gooks' in Viet Nam, that's OK.
If the Govt. pays an executioner to kill people they say are 'convicted killers', whether they had a fair trial or not, that's OK.
If you killed a 'Red Indian', that was, at one time, in the wild West, OK.
If you kill a North Keorean, 'Rusky', Gay rights protester, whatever, that would also be OK in certain circumstances, as far as some 'Bible believing', 'Christians' are concerned.

Misapplication of scripture is by no means restricted to those who we label 'sinners'. We sometimes even do it ourselves unwittingly. The only antidote to hypocricy of this kind is "Knowing the mind of Christ", not selectively quoting Bible verses from both Old and New Testaments and making them say only what we say they say.



Do you eat lobster, eels, shellfish? You don't have to, but if you do it is an 'Abomination'. Do you eat pork, bacon, gammon? You don't have to, but that also is an abomination.

How many Bible believing Christians are as careful to avoid these 'Abominations'?

These six things doth the Lord hate:
yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
A proud look, a lying tongue,
and hands that shed innocent blood,
An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations,
feet that be swift in running to mischief,
A false witness that speaketh lies,
and he that soweth discord among brethren.

But which one of these seven abominations to God is in addition to the list of six?

What this says is that, for a fact, we don't know exactly how many things are an abomination to God. Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

So simply labeling someone as a 'sinful abomination doer', because they have fallen in love with someone of their own gender, (a thing that you have so far been fortunate enough not to happen to you), is as irrational as pretending to oneself that none of the above abominations have ever even entered your head, let alone been contemplated at one time or another in your life.

We don't have to do any of these things, but sure as 'eggs is eggs', human beings will do them, and when they do most of them the results are abominable to us, (who don't do them), and to God.

Going through life pretending that we haven't, and don't ever do any of these things, and never ever will, is not, walking the way Jesus did though, and we are called upon, as His disciples, to be like He was, and walk the way He did.

It was the sinful tax collector that acknowledged his abominations and admitted his inability to please God, that "went away justified", not the righteous Pharisee who fasted regularly, gave alms and thought himself lawfully righteous enough for God's approval.
.

I disagree. It is just that simple when the Lord Jesus becomes the master of your thoughts and life.

The examples you listed under EATING simple to not aplly to Christians. We are not under the Law but grace.

No one has to go to war and kill anyone. The soldier can be a concienouse objector. But even then, it would be helpful to realize Romans 13:4 which says...…………...

"… For it [government] is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil."

God has given the state the power of life and death over its subjects in order to maintain order. Government also has the right to protect its people from evil by wielding the same “sword” in warfare. Some will argue that God has commanded, “Thou shall not kill.”

Therefore Christians cannot engage in warfare. Actually, God’s command was against murder, not killing. Nowhere does the Bible say that believers should not join the military and thus, should not participate in defending their country.

 

[Major1]

It is not that I actually disagree with "Doing what we read in the Bible concerning living like THE WAY told us to live". That much is fine, but . . . . .

What about the main bulk of the scriptures, are you going to ignore them? You can't actually "Do them", and some of the stories are about people 'Doing things' which were most definitely WRONG. Not at all things that we should do, just because the bible tells us God told someone to do it, a long time ago.

And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: Deut 7:2.

Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. Num.31:17-18.

And how do I "Do" this? :

I am black and beautiful,
O daughters of Jerusalem,
like the tents of Kedar,
like the curtains of Solomon. Song 1:5.

Most of the Bible is songs, stories, poetry, history, and prophesy. Very little of it is actually telling anyone how to behave. Most of it provides 'examples' of both good and bad behaviour. A wise person knows which behaviour it is recommending we should emulate. A foolish person does not know right from wrong and may think they can do anything God told anyone to do 'in the Bible'.

It is like sport to a fool to do wrong,
but wise conduct is pleasure to a man of understanding. Prov.10:23.

And anyhow, you seem to be reducing the Bible and understanding what is written in it, to a mere bunch of "Rules" which if followed will "Give you life". That's not how it works though, is it.

The Bible is a Book that teaches us that 'Believing God' is not the same as 'Believing IN God', and it is the former not the latter that we are constantly, told in the Bible, to do.

Numbers 14:11, Deuteronomy 1:32, Isaiah 43:10, Mark 1:15, John 1:12, John 6:29, John 9:35, John 14:1, John 20:31, Acts of the apostles 8:37, Acts of the apostles 27:25, 2 Corinthians 4:4, 1 Thessalonians 2:13. James 2:19, 1 Peter 1:21.

.

I have to disagree once again with your comment of...……..
"Most of the Bible is songs, stories, poetry, history, and prophesy. Very little of it is actually telling anyone how to behave. Most of it provides 'examples' of both good and bad behaviour. A wise person knows which behaviour it is recommending we should emulate. A foolish person does not know right from wrong and may think they can do anything God told anyone to do 'in the Bible'."

The book of Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy are all about Hoe to behave and live.

You are posting Scripturers that you think support yout thinking without any context to them at all.
That is very bad Bible theology and an even worse way to think.

You posted Deut. 7:2......…
"And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them".

Why would the decision of the Amorites be so serious to God that He would have all their people wiped out? The answer is simple. God tells the Israelites why the people were destroyed. It was because of the wickedness of the Amorite people.

Those people were judged by God and He used Israel to carry it out.

Then you used Numbers 31:17-18...………

"Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."
​

To understand this passage, one must realize that Numbers 25 is the “prequel” to the events recorded in Numbers 31. Numbers 25 tells how the Midianites, specifically the women, led the Israelites astray into worshiping the Baal or Peor. The Lord’s anger burned against Israel, and He struck them with a plague. The plague ended when Phinehas, the grandson of Aaron, killed an Israelite man and the Midianite woman he brought into his family (Numbers 25:6-9). The relations with Midianite women were in direct violation of God’s commands in Deuteronomy 7:3-4: “[N]either shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. For he will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of Jehovah be kindled against you, and he will destroy thee quickly.”

As a result of these events, God instructed the Israelites to “Vex the Midianites, and smite them; for they vex you with their wiles, wherewith they have beguiled you in the matter of Peor, and in the matter of Cozbi, the daughter of the prince of Midian, their sister, who was slain on the day of the plague in the matter of Peor” (Numbers 25:17-18). When, in Numbers 31, the army brought back the women, it was in direct violation to God’s order in Numbers 25 to destroy the Midianites, who would lead the Israelites into apostasy.

Man hardly can blame God and His Word for the awful consequences of sin; rather, he has only himself to blame (Romans 3:23; 5:12). A parent who warns a child of the consequences of disobedience, threatens an appropriate punishment, and then is true to his word at the event of infraction, generally is considered to be a firm-but-loving parent by clear-thinking people. Yet, critics ask us to view God as some type of ogre for following the same course of action. The discrepancy is not with the Almighty, but with His cowering critics.

I suggest a more serious look be considered at...………….
The Killings of Numbers 31

 

[ExTiff]

I disagree. It is just that simple when the Lord Jesus becomes the master of your thoughts and life.

The examples you listed under EATING simple to not aplly to Christians. We are not under the Law but grace.

No one has to go to war and kill anyone. The soldier can be a concienouse objector. But even then, it would be helpful to realize Romans 13:4 which says...…………...

"… For it [government] is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil."

God has given the state the power of life and death over its subjects in order to maintain order. Government also has the right to protect its people from evil by wielding the same “sword” in warfare. Some will argue that God has commanded, “Thou shall not kill.”

Therefore Christians cannot engage in warfare. Actually, God’s command was against murder, not killing. Nowhere does the Bible say that believers should not join the military and thus, should not participate in defending their country.

All your explanation goes to prove, it is not as simple as you suggest.
.

 

[ExTiff]

I have to disagree once again with your comment of...……..
"Most of the Bible is songs, stories, poetry, history, and prophesy. Very little of it is actually telling anyone how to behave. Most of it provides 'examples' of both good and bad behaviour. A wise person knows which behaviour it is recommending we should emulate. A foolish person does not know right from wrong and may think they can do anything God told anyone to do 'in the Bible'."

The book of Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy are all about Hoe to behave and live.

You are posting Scripturers that you think support yout thinking without any context to them at all.
That is very bad Bible theology and an even worse way to think.

You posted Deut. 7:2......…
"And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them".

Why would the decision of the Amorites be so serious to God that He would have all their people wiped out? The answer is simple. God tells the Israelites why the people were destroyed. It was because of the wickedness of the Amorite people.

Those people were judged by God and He used Israel to carry it out.

Then you used Numbers 31:17-18...………

"Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."
​

To understand this passage, one must realize that Numbers 25 is the “prequel” to the events recorded in Numbers 31. Numbers 25 tells how the Midianites, specifically the women, led the Israelites astray into worshiping the Baal or Peor. The Lord’s anger burned against Israel, and He struck them with a plague. The plague ended when Phinehas, the grandson of Aaron, killed an Israelite man and the Midianite woman he brought into his family (Numbers 25:6-9). The relations with Midianite women were in direct violation of God’s commands in Deuteronomy 7:3-4: “[N]either shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. For he will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of Jehovah be kindled against you, and he will destroy thee quickly.”

As a result of these events, God instructed the Israelites to “Vex the Midianites, and smite them; for they vex you with their wiles, wherewith they have beguiled you in the matter of Peor, and in the matter of Cozbi, the daughter of the prince of Midian, their sister, who was slain on the day of the plague in the matter of Peor” (Numbers 25:17-18). When, in Numbers 31, the army brought back the women, it was in direct violation to God’s order in Numbers 25 to destroy the Midianites, who would lead the Israelites into apostasy.

Man hardly can blame God and His Word for the awful consequences of sin; rather, he has only himself to blame (Romans 3:23; 5:12). A parent who warns a child of the consequences of disobedience, threatens an appropriate punishment, and then is true to his word at the event of infraction, generally is considered to be a firm-but-loving parent by clear-thinking people. Yet, critics ask us to view God as some type of ogre for following the same course of action. The discrepancy is not with the Almighty, but with His cowering critics.

I suggest a more serious look be considered at...………….
The Killings of Numbers 31

Once again though, not as simple as you made out.
.

 

[hedrick]

One of the things I have observed over my years of teaching the Bible is that a great majority of people simply do not follow Bible doctrine. They read it, they hear it and even understand it but just can not aceept it. The question then must be WHY????
...
God said that we shall not murder!

But we say, Abortion is not murder, it is freedom of choice.

You give an example of the problem in this posting. Very few Christians are willing to accept just what the Biblical authors said. They want answers to questions that were never asked in the first century, and at least the answers weren't written in the Bible.

We want to baptize the right way. But the Bible never says whether infants were baptized. Most Christians have drawn their own conclusions, and are convinced that the Bible dictated them.

The Church developed the doctrines of the Incarnation and Trinity. They are certainly based on things in Scripture. But Scripture neither includes the actual doctrine of the Trinity nor any of the alternatives such as Arianism. Yet most Christians are convinced that the Bible dictates their specific theology.

This is not a condemnation of either infant baptism or the Trinity. I accept both, and I think there are Biblically-based reasons for it. But they are conclusions made by later Christians after reflecting on Scripture.

Similarly, we want to know whether abortion is wrong. The bible says that murder is wrong, but it simply never says whether abortion is murder or not. Yet most Christians are convinced that the Bible mandates their view on the topic, whichever it is.

Christ gave the Church the power of the keys. This is the authority and responsibility to start with the principles taught in the Bible and apply them to today's questions. It is quite legitimate for us to make decisions. But it's not helpful to pull random passages of the Bible out of context to claim that it actually teaches things that it does not.

 

[Major1]

Once again though, not as simple as you made out.
.

I just do not follow you. I never said anything was easy. In fact living the Christian life is impossible, but we must make the effort to do so and the 1st thing to be done is to accept Christ and allow Him to live through us.

 

[Major1]

You give an example of the problem in this posting. Very few Christians are willing to accept just what the Biblical authors said. They want answers to questions that were never asked in the first century, and at least the answers weren't written in the Bible.

We want to baptize the right way. But the Bible never says whether infants were baptized. Most Christians have drawn their own conclusions, and are convinced that the Bible dictated them.

The Church developed the doctrines of the Incarnation and Trinity. They are certainly based on things in Scripture. But Scripture neither includes the actual doctrine of the Trinity nor any of the alternatives such as Arianism. Yet most Christians are convinced that the Bible dictates their specific theology.

This is not a condemnation of either infant baptism or the Trinity. I accept both, and I think there are Biblically-based reasons for it. But they are conclusions made by later Christians after reflecting on Scripture.

Similarly, we want to know whether abortion is wrong. The bible says that murder is wrong, but it simply never says whether abortion is murder or not. Yet most Christians are convinced that the Bible mandates their view on the topic, whichever it is.

Christ gave the Church the power of the keys. This is the authority and responsibility to start with the principles taught in the Bible and apply them to today's questions. It is quite legitimate for us to make decisions. But it's not helpful to pull random passages of the Bible out of context to claim that it actually teaches things that it does not.

All very true.

But where the Bible IS clear then we are called to be obedient...IMO!

 

[ExTiff]

All very true.

But where the Bible IS clear then we are called to be obedient...IMO!

Not obedient to a book.
Obedient to Jesus Christ, The Word, not a bunch of words, however inspired they may be, they are liable of being misunderstood.
Obedient to The Holy Spirit, not just the words in a book. Christ values deeds over doctrine. "Well done, thou good and faithful servant". Not, "Correctly believed and obeyed, thou clever bible reader".

The Church got along fine for the first 360 years of its existence, without the full bible we have today.

If the Bible has 'authority' in my life, then it will not be as a set of rules and regulations telling me exactly what to do in every circumstance, but as a story that authorises me to act in a Christlike way. Ultimately, when push comes to shove and we look for rules to guide our lives, Christians look to Jesus. And he said that there were two absolutely core principles: to love God enthusiastically, i.e. with all our heart and soul and mind, and to love our neighbour as we love ourselves, (assuming we are sufficiently integrated as human beings to actually 'love ourselves' i.e. be at peace with our own conscience and satisfied with our own sense of identity). If we don't even have that, then we need psychiatric therapy before even considering becoming a Christian. Perhaps those are the only 'rules' that Jesus really thought we needed, or at least he obviously thought they were an ideal place to start, if we feel we must have rules.

However, that raises an issue, as far as being 'obedient' to the Bible is concerned. Unfortunately a lot of the Bible isn't very loving, neither is it very peaceful and large portions of it are not very kind.
.

 

[ExTiff]

I just do not follow you. I never said anything was easy. In fact living the Christian life is impossible, but we must make the effort to do so and the 1st thing to be done is to accept Christ and allow Him to live through us.

The reason you don't follow me is because I didn't explain myself properly. When I wrote "Not as simple as you made out", I was referring to your statement: "The books of Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy are all about How to behave and live."

The books of Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy are actually all about how some iron age scribes said some bronze age tribes were told by God 'How to behave and live'. They are probably not history in the way that we now treat history. The authorship of Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy are a bit like you sitting down today and writing down the rules that William the Conquerer imposed upon the Saxons back in 1066. Now if you want to convince yourself that those books contain eternal rules for life, applicable to all people in all times, you will need to change your habits of life considerably, and your family members and slaves can look forward to a much less pleasant and far more primative existence under your 'God obedience', regime.


You are assuming that those rules, which may have been appropriate for a bronze age society, which was starting to look to please God, are in fact the 'rules' that God wants us all to follow today, as followers of Jesus Christ.

To believe that, I admit would require a greater amount of 'simplicy' than even a simpleton could provide.

We don't any longer nail our slaves to doors by driving an awl through their ear, just so they can keep their wife and kids when we want to 'retire the slave' as being no longer useful to us.

Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them. If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself. And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free: Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her. And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters. If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish. And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money. Ex.21:1-11.

These rules are not lightly dismissed. They are in fact the basis of an Everlasting Covenant and are integral to The Law. But they no longer apply to followers of Jesus Christ, because making and keeping slaves, selling their own daughters and treating those under their control in the manner reccommended in Exodus would arrouse His extreme disapproval I think. Don't you?

Do you now see what I mean when I say "Not as simple as you made out". There are many obvious and straightforward 'rules' in Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy and also in many other books of the Bible, (including 1 Corinthians 11:1-16 and 1 Corinthians 14:34), but they were not all intended to apply to every Christian follower of Jesus Christ today and it is not your job to apply them to others or insist that they comply to them or else be labled by you as rule breaking sinners and heretics.

So I say again "Not as simple as you seem to think".
.

 

[Major1]

Not obedient to a book.
Obedient to Jesus Christ, The Word, not a bunch of words, however inspired they may be, they are liable of being misunderstood.
Obedient to The Holy Spirit, not just the words in a book. Christ values deeds over doctrine. "Well done, thou good and faithful servant". Not, "Correctly believed and obeyed, thou clever bible reader".

The Church got along fine for the first 360 years of its existence, without the full bible we have today.

If the Bible has 'authority' in my life, then it will not be as a set of rules and regulations telling me exactly what to do in every circumstance, but as a story that authorises me to act in a Christlike way. Ultimately, when push comes to shove and we look for rules to guide our lives, Christians look to Jesus. And he said that there were two absolutely core principles: to love God enthusiastically, i.e. with all our heart and soul and mind, and to love our neighbour as we love ourselves, (assuming we are sufficiently integrated as human beings to actually 'love ourselves' i.e. be at peace with our own conscience and satisfied with our own sense of identity). If we don't even have that, then we need psychiatric therapy before even considering becoming a Christian. Perhaps those are the only 'rules' that Jesus really thought we needed, or at least he obviously thought they were an ideal place to start, if we feel we must have rules.

However, that raises an issue, as far as being 'obedient' to the Bible is concerned. Unfortunately a lot of the Bible isn't very loving, neither is it very peaceful and large portions of it are not very kind.
.

Your view of the Bible is harsh and very negative and there is nothing I can say that will change that.

To me and a lot of others, the Bible is the Word of God.

There may be some parts of it that are violent and seem harsh until we do the contextual work needed to understand why something was done.

Jesus Christ is the Creator, the Messiah and last Prophet.
Colossians 1:16-18.........
"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence".

THat being said then the truth however is different than your perception. The author of the Bible is the Lord Jesus Christ.

Luke 24: 25-27...…......
"He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory? 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself."

The Word of God was given by the Word of God.

 

[ExTiff]

You posted Deut. 7:2
"And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them".

Why would the decision of the Amorites be so serious to God that He would have all their people wiped out? The answer is simple. God tells the Israelites why the people were destroyed. It was because of the wickedness of the Amorite people.

Those people were judged by God and He used Israel to carry it out.

So these, apparently were the worst people who ever lived then? It's like Hitler marries Cruella Devill or the Wicked Witch of the West and they had loads of babies, who then engaged in idol worship, started smoking pot and never did any recycling, like evil new age hippies. The usual argument here is that the Canaanites were offering child sacrifices. That's possible, certainly. But does that alone make them the worst sinners ever? Worse than the Assyrians or the Babylonians? Or the Nazis or Stalin's Red Guard or the Khmer Rouge or the Crusaders or ISIS? Or any other crackpot, evil dictators, zealots and maniacs who have maimed and killed in the name of their idols? Is God turning Israelites into genocidal puppets excusable? Didn't God tell us not to murder? But here he is telling them to do exactly that. Is God like President Nixon, defending Watergate on the grounds that "When the President does it, that means it's not illegal". If God is anything like President Nixon, then God has gone down in my estimation.

So if you had a sudden impulse, a 'word from the Lord', to go and kill your next door neighbour because he is an ISIS mole planning a bomb attack, would you pour gasoline through his letter box and torch the place, along with his wives and all his children then?

If we think that God legitimately sanctioned murdering these people because they were wicked, doesn't that mean God would approve of us doing the same to whole nations WE know are wicked, idolatrous sinners? Like North Korea, North Vietnam, WW2 Japan, or Nazi Germany.

That kind of logic was followed through by Oliver Cromwell, who used this passage to justify murdering the inhabitants of Wexford and Drogheda in Ireland. 'Amalekite theology' fuelled the racial extermination of the native population during the Spanish conquests of South America. It justified the destruction of Native American population in North America. These ideas fueled massacres of Zulus in South Africa and Herero and Nama peoples in Namibia. During the Rwandan Genocide in 1994, where the Hutu people decided to annihilate their Tutsi rivals, one pastor compared the Tutsis to the Amalakites:

"If you don't exterminate the Tutsis, you'll be rejected. If you don't want to be rejected by God, then finish the job of killing the people God has rejected. No child, no wife, no old man should be left alive". And the people said "Amen".

The real problem with all this justification of God's wrath and His instructions to commit genocide though is that God behaves completely UNLIKE Jesus. Jesus said we should love our enemies and forgive those who persecute us. How can that be if God, The Holy Spirit and Jesus are ONE. Is Jesus supposed to be like his Father or not?

If it is true that God actually ordered the Israelites to commit genocide, then God is nothing like Jesus was, and Jesus is supposed to be the same yesterday, today and for ever.

So you see we have a problem, don't we. Or perhaps you think you don't.