Why Believers are not under the Old Covenant Law of Moses

[bekkilyn]

@FreeAtLast
@bekkilyn


If we aren't under the 10 commandments, does that mean we can actually break them without concern/repentance and we are covered by grace, and will still get to heaven?

Just want to be sure I understand "we are under grace not the law". If that is not the case can someone please explain exactly what it means to be that?

Once you are *already saved* then obedience to Jesus through the Holy Spirit will help draw you closer to him and strengthen your faith. The Holy Spirit will work in you to transform you away from your old sinful nature to your new nature in Christ.

If you are trying to follow the ten commandments or any of the rest of the Mosaic law in order *to* be saved, then that's a problem because you can't achieve salvation on your own through the law.

It is only through Jesus's righteousness that we can be proclaimed righteous and able to live in God's pure and holy presence.

We all deserve death because of sin, and the old covenant law showed us our sin very clearly, and demonstrated our need for a savior. It is through Jesus's grace that he died on the cross for us, taking on all of our sins, past, present, and future, so that we can be clothed with his righteousness. He didn't have to do it. We deserve to die, and without his gift of grace, we would die because even one speck of sin is enough to keep us forever separated from a pure and holy God.

 

[jaybird88]

None of us are trying to do that. That was a Pharisee thing that people insist on putting on people who are simply trying to be obedient.

"If you feel you should, and try to be obedient to God, then you are trying to be saved by obeying the law, so stop that, it's not Christian like!"

See how ridiculous that sounds? But it's exactly what's being said here

i think what Jesus and James were teaching were a lot like what we bicker about today, i know i am guilty of it many times, if your teaching and not doing, your no better than a corrupt pharisee. James made it simple, faith with no works is dead. we can talk all we like but need not forget to help the sick, feed the hungry, visit the imprisoned. talk is dead with no actions.

 

[klutedavid]

Believers, at least gentile believers, were never under the Mosaic law to begin with. That kind of thought is an outcropping from a theology that says the church has somehow replaced Israel and now all the covenants made with Israel are now the possession of the church. Of course, all except the curses. Oh how convenient. Smorgasbord Christianity that says, "I'll take some of this, but don't give me none of that".Sure, there are commandments that Yeshua laid down for us, but that is not the Mosaic covenant of which the Torah is part of. He did claim that He didn't come to abolish the Torah, but to fulfill or complete it. That is all true. Remember, Yeshua is a Jew who was speaking to a primarily Jewish audience during His time on earth.

The Jerusalem council guided by the brother of Yeshua, James, pretty well summed up what "law" gentiles are under.

Hello Copperhead.

For some inexplicable reason a vast army of people do not understand this.

Remember, Yeshua is a Jew who was speaking to a primarily Jewish audience during His time on earth.

Your spot on with this post.

Yes, the Jerusalem council was crystal clear in separating the Gentiles from the Jews.

 

[Kenny'sID]

You are already filthy with sin in God's eyes no matter how many good works you do on your own

Hmm, I thought we were cleansed by the blood and made clean because we believe, and oh...because we attempt be obedient?

"Repentance" look it up, it;s a requirement and when we do that (ask forgiveness and attempt to stop that sin) we aren't trying to save ourselves, and we aren't doing a bad thing.

 

[bekkilyn]

i think what Jesus and James were teaching were a lot like what we bicker about today, i know i am guilty of it many times, if your teaching and not doing, your no better than a corrupt pharisee. James made it simple, faith with no works is dead. we can talk all we like but need not forget to help the sick, feed the hungry, visit the imprisoned. talk is dead with no actions.

I agree with you that we should be doing good things (through the power of the Holy Spirit), producing good fruit, and if that's not happening as a *result* of our faith, then there is very likely something wrong with our faith. A good tree isn't going to produce bad fruit.

What I disagree with is the idea that we can *save ourselves* by doing these works rather than them being a *result* of our faith in Jesus, and I don't believe that James was in any way suggesting salvation by works as has been claimed by some people.

 

[klutedavid]

i think Paul is a good teacher but agree with you his words are hard to understand. i thnk thats exactly why the majority of the NT is Paul and so little made up of the actual 12. when rome took over the faith they knew they could easily twist and manipulate the words of Paul. its no coincidence all the oddball doctrines come from Pauls teachings, doctrines that cant be found anywhere else.

Hello jaybird.

Paul's letters were addressed to Gentiles, most Gentile churches.

That is why you may have difficulty when you read Paul's letters, against the other Jewish authors in the New Testament.

Paul uses phrases, like 'deeds of the flesh', to describe sin. Whereas John in addressing a Jewish audience would define sin as below.

1 John 3:4
Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

Two different audiences in the New Testament.

 

[bekkilyn]

Hmm, I thought we were cleansed by the blood and made clean because we believe, and oh...because we attempt be obedient?

"Repentance" look it up, it;s a requirement and when we do that (ask forgiveness and attempt to stop that sin) we aren't trying to save ourselves, and we aren't doing a bad thing.

We are only made clean through Jesus. On our own, we are filthy.

 

[Kenny'sID]

James made it simple, faith with no works is dead

I once asked if anyone wants to appear at the final judgment with a bunch of dead faith? Seems I never got a reply.

A word to undecided onlookers....you are the reason some of us are here battling this. Just keep an eye open, things usually become pretty clear when we consistently see some of the questions here are not answered, the same questions that prove it's not the way.

Watch this...

Can any one of the opposing end of this tell me what exactly was meant by "Faith without works is dead" if works are not part of our salvation? Seems to me that's makes things very very clear, but normally there is some type of comeback for these stumpers, just wondered what it is for that part of Scripture.

 

[Kenny'sID]

We are only made clean through Jesus. On our own, we are filthy.

OK, I was confused because you, knowing we are Christian, said that's what God thinks, but I understand now.

 

[jaybird88]

I agree with you that we should be doing good things (through the power of the Holy Spirit), producing good fruit, and if that's not happening as a *result* of our faith, then there is very likely something wrong with our faith. A good tree isn't going to produce bad fruit.

What I disagree with is the idea that we can *save ourselves* by doing these works rather than them being a *result* of our faith in Jesus, and I don't believe that James was in any way suggesting salvation by works as has been claimed by some people.

i think we worry to much and make everything a salvation issue. i dont see the disciples taking all of His teachings, separating which ones pertain to salvation, and which ones dont. if He taught it, we should do it.

 

[bekkilyn]

i think we worry to much and make everything a salvation issue. i dont see the disciples taking all of His teachings, separating which ones pertain to salvation, and which ones dont. if He taught it, we should do it.

Well this whole thing all started because of someone's belief that if we do not observe the Saturday Sabbath as a mandatory requirement to be saved, then we will not enter heaven, so it was a salvation argument from the beginning.

 

[jaybird88]

I once asked if anyone wants to appear at the final judgment with a bunch of dead faith? Seems I never got a reply.

i agree, here is how i see it, you die, pass to the next world, judged. you really think your going to be judged harshly, sent to the hot place for trying follow the example of Jesus, obey the commands He obeyed?

A word to undecided onlookers....you are the reason some of us are here battling this. Just keep an eye open, things usually become pretty clear when we consistently see some of the questions here are not answered, the same questions that prove it's not the way.

Watch this...

Can any one of the opposing end of this tell me what exactly was meant by "Faith without works is dead" if works are not part of our salvation? Seems to me that's makes things very very clear, but normally there is some type of comeback for these stumpers, just wondered what it is for that part of Scripture.

when in question i always look to Jesus. for every teaching He was also doing a good work. He lead by example, and i believe He expected His followers to do likewise.

 

[jaybird88]

Well this whole thing all started because of someone's belief that if we do not observe the Saturday Sabbath as a mandatory requirement to be saved, then we will not enter heaven, so it was a salvation argument from the beginning.

i had no idea how it all started, i just like talking to people. it beats watching tv.

 

[jaybird88]

Hello jaybird.

Paul's letters were addressed to Gentiles, most Gentile churches.

That is why you may have difficulty when you read Paul's letters, against the other Jewish authors in the New Testament.

Paul uses phrases, like 'deeds of the flesh', to describe sin. Whereas John in addressing a Jewish audience would define sin as below.

1 John 3:4
Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

Two different audiences in the New Testament.

i agree, i think the people they were speaking to is often overlooked.

 

[klutedavid]

I once asked if anyone wants to appear at the final judgment with a bunch of dead faith? Seems I never got a reply.

A word to undecided onlookers....you are the reason some of us are here battling this. Just keep an eye open, things usually become pretty clear when we consistently see some of the questions here are not answered, the same questions that prove it's not the way.

Watch this...

Can any one of the opposing end of this tell me what exactly was meant by "Faith without works is dead" if works are not part of our salvation? Seems to me that's makes things very very clear, but normally there is some type of comeback for these stumpers, just wondered what it is for that part of Scripture.

Hello Kenny.

We are saved by grace through faith.

Faith without some good work added is an idle faith.

No one is saved on the basis of works, never, heresy.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Many folk misunderstand the difference between Grace and these pitiful works. Unless of course you feel the need to start boasting, about why your works will justify you.

 

[klutedavid]

i agree, i think the people they were speaking to is often overlooked.

Yes sir.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Faith without some good work added is an idle faith.

The Bible would disagree, it's not idle, it's dead faith....plain and simple. Do I really need to back that up with scripture? Either way will you back up that it is only "idle faith" and not dead faith, as the bible clearly teaches?

Well, at least I got an answer, but yikes....

 

[Kenny'sID]

i agree, here is how i see it, you die, pass to the next world, judged. you really think your going to be judged harshly, sent to the hot place for trying follow the example of Jesus, obey the commands He obeyed?



when in question i always look to Jesus. for every teaching He was also doing a good work. He lead by example, and i believe He expected His followers to do likewise.

For me, the Bible is just clear, and like it or not, I know it won't do me one bit of good to convince myself of an easier way. That's for preachers who want a huge following, and a congregation that needs to have their choice reinforced.

Also, it makes perfect sense, here towards the end, an easier unbiblical way will be taught, and people will actually believe it, not because it's true, but because it's what they choose. So in the end, no one is really fooled, and we will all reap what we sow.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

ONLY FAITH THAT WORKS BY LOVE IS SAVING FAITH...........

I did not intend to post back here as I think enough scripture has been posted on page 1-2. Dear friends it is only God's Word that is true and it is only in God's Word that we must point all so that all my find him who loves us and washed us in his own blood. His Spirit leads us only as we have Faith in his exceeding great and precious promises...........

I am posting this because it seems some are making accusations that are not true as to what I believe, so I want to make my position very clear and share God's Word on what I believe and have said.......

For example some have said (more than one).......................

Post # 10

bekkilyn, post:The Law is the Torah. The Torah includes the ten commandments. When Jesus fulfilled the Law, he fulfilled all of it, and not just the parts that are convenient to an agenda.

Post # 23

bekkilyn, post: The agenda of trying to convince people who have been freed through Jesus from the law to return to the bondage of the law. There is no salvation in the law. Salvation is through Jesus alone.

Post # 91

bekkilyn, post: Well this whole thing all started because of someone's belief that if we do not observe the Saturday Sabbath as a mandatory requirement to be saved, then we will not enter heaven, so it was a salvation argument from the beginning

This is despite posting the opposite more than once .....................
Post # 7

LoveGodsWOrd said: It's never been about following the law its always been about following Christ by faith through love alone. Faith that works by love is what fulfills God's Law in those that walk in His Spirit (Romans 13:8-10). Obedience is only the fruit of faith and a sign that someone is genuinely following God's Word (Matthew 7:17-27). If you seek obedience without faith you will never attain it because this is the gift of God written on the heart (Ephesians 2:8; Galatians 2:16; Hebrews 8:10-12). But if you believe God's Word, your faith will be counted for righteousness in God's eyes (Romans 1:17; Philippians 3:9). If your faith does not have the fruit of obedience (God's work in you) than you are still in your sins and have not seen him or known him and your faith is dead (Philippians 2:13; Hebrews 10:26-27; 1 John 2:2-4; 1 John 3:3-9). May God bless you as you seek him through His Word..........

Now if I have made my position clear on what I believe from the beginning why continue to say things that are not true?

It has never been about doing something to be saved other than to have faith that works by love in him who loves all and to believe what God says and follow him. If God's Word asks us to do something and we do not do it, is that FAITH or UNBELIEF?

HEB 8: (new covenant)

10, For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11, And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12, for I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

God Fulfilling His Law (10 commandments) IN US through Faith?

The fulfilling of the God's Law in us who walk not after the flesh (carnal mind = sin) but after the Spirit (new mind with God's Law written on the heart) (Rom 8:1). That the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled IN US who walk not after the flesh (carnal mind = sin) but after the spirit (Rom 8:4; 6). Salvation is God fulfilling his Law in us saving us from sin. Finally the result of God's salvation can be seen as " Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus (Rev 14:12). God's people with the character of Jesus saved by faith through love. Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. (John 8:34-36)

If you are partaking of the New Covenant and you have been born again and are walking in the Spirit. You will not steal, lie, murder, commit adultery or break any of God's commandments because God's Law of love has been written on your heart.

These are ll a part of God’s Law (the 10 commandments). So under the New Covenant, you will not murder and steal. So let’s look at all of God’s Law applying the same thinking (Ex 20:1-17). This indeed is the new covenant experience spoken of in Jer 31:31-34; Eze 36:26-27 and repeated in Heb 8:10-12; 10:16-17.


“33I will put my law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. No more shall every man teach his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” This is the law of love to God and to our neighbour.

So now under the new covenant when God changes our heart; we will love God and our neighbour.

if we love God we will not steal
if we love God we will not murder
if we love God we will not commit adultery
if we love God we will not lie
if we love God we will honour our parents
if we love God we will not covet
if we love God we will have no other gods except our God who loves us
if we love God we will not make unto any idols
if we love God we will not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain
if we love God we will Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy as he asked us to!

God’s Law has always been central to both the Old and the New Covenant. It is only by the operation of God as we have Faith in His Word that God changes our hearts so that we can love him and love our neighbour that we can walk in his ways. This is why Jesus says its only if you love me we can keep hid commandments (John 14:15)

Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
Psa 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
Psa 51:13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

Love is the fulfilling of the God’s Law in us who walk by faith that works by love and is why love is the fulfilling of God’s Law in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit….

This is why Jesus says if you love me keep my commandments; He that says he knows him and keeps not his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him. (John 14:15; 1 John 2:2-4). This includes the 7th Day Sabbath which is one of the 10 (Exodus 20:8-11)

NOW this is the experience of the believer who by faith alone lays hold of the promises of God to know the power of God unto salvation. This is what it means to be a believer or to believe God's Word. If you believe God's Word you have the fruit of faith which is obedience to God through love.

Now what about the UNBELIEVER or someone that does NOT BELIEVE God.....................

Without faith it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:26) because our salvation depends on us believing God's Word. It is the means of salvation from our sins. Unbelief (not having faith) in God's Word caused the fall of mankind and has given us the knowledge of good and evil. It is unbelief (not believing God's Word) that separates us from God and leads us to be lost. In light of the above and the New Covenant of love here are a few questions to think about.......

When God tells us to have no other God's before Him and we disobey Him, is this having faith in God's Word?

When God says you should not make any idols and we disobey Him, is this having faith in God's Word?

When God says we should not use His name in vain and we disobey Him, is this having faith in God's Word?

When God tells us to remember His Sabbath day and keep it Holy and we disobey God is this having faith in God's Word?

When God tells is to honor our mother and father and we disobey Him is this having faith in Gods Word?

When God says to us do not commit adultery and we commit adultery is this unbelief (not having faith)?

When God tells us not to lie and we lie is this having faith in God's Word?

When God says to us not to steal, and we steal is this having faith in God's Word?

When God says to us not to kill, and we kill is this having faith in God's Word?

When God says to us not to covet our neighbors things and we disobey God, is this having faith in God's Word?

All the above can be summed up as ......

"And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." (Deut 6:5) and "thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself: I am the LORD. (Lev 19:18). On these two commandments hang all the Law and the prophets (Matt 22:40)

Not having faith is a sin because your rejecting Gods Word. The word of God clearly tells us though that...

"Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." (1John 3:4)

Faith is the means to salvation but obedience is the fruit of salvation if you are still in your sins you have not seen him or known him

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believe that there is one God; thou does well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? (James 2:17-20).

There is a salvation issue alright and it is over SIN which transgression of God's Law and UNBELIEF in God's Word (James 2:11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20; Romans 14:23).

If any of us are living a life of known unrepentant SIN it is God's Word that says you will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven not mine.

Hebrews 10
26, For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

1 John 3:6,
Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sins hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 John 2
3, And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4, He that saith, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

We must point all to the Word of God because it is only in the Word of God anyone can know the truth and the truth will make us free......

Who should we believe the traditions and teachings of men, or the Word of God?

It is only God's Word that will judge is in the last days (John 12:47-48) and in times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commands all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

May God bless you all as you seek him through His Word. That is the only place any of us are safe. If you got this far please forgive my long post.

God's Sheep hear His Voice..........

 

[Episaw]

Wow! We actually have a topic that deals in depth with the teachings of scripture. Not someone saying "I think this" or, "I think that" or saying "my experience is this" or "my experience is that" or "my denomination teaches this."

I shall look forward to some serious study based on what has been posted. Thank you for your input. I have tried to understand this subject but as yet am still coming to terms with what is actually taught in scripture so I can see both sides of the argument.

One thing that seems logical to me is that the 10 commandments are not obsolete as much of secular law is based on them. If the secular world believes them and accepts them, why shouldn't we?

Perhaps it is because the secular law is unregenerate so it needs the 10 commandments or it could be a case of a God-consciousness in all of us so all we are doing both Christian and secular is giving expression to that God consciousness.