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Why believe in the Rapture?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Chris†opher Paul, Feb 6, 2003.

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  1. Gideon4God

    Gideon4God Regular Member

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    which verse which book and which Bible? I have looked and not been able to find the word "rapture" in the Bible. Help pls. On the other hand the Greek "rapture" means "to be taken up." I really do not believe that one verse holds this much power to create the doctrine of the "rapture."
     
  2. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    one taken and the other left in the field?
    one man in the bed and the other taken?

    See my thread on "the wicked will be taken first". In the days of Noah, who was taken out? The wicked. Check out the thread, it is interesting, if I do say so myself. :)
     
  3. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    Oh, nm. I see you already responded to that thread. :)
     
  4. superdave

    superdave are you super-natural?

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    I am a mid-tribulation rapture believer... I think it will happen- in the middle of the tribulation... There was one scripture that supported my belief... I can't remember which one it is... I will go look it up...
     
  5. nephilimiyr

    nephilimiyr I've Been Keepin My Eyes Wide Open

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    Gideon4God

    True the word rapture isn't in the bible, Paul didn't use the term but he did define it as such in 1 Thes. 4:16-17  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    1 Cor. 15:51-52  Behold, I shew you a mystery;We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorrupible, and we shall be changed.

    1 Cor. 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

    Matt. 24:31 And he shall send his angels with the great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

    Now we can argue on and on about when this rapture or gathering takes place (in which I'm not at all enthused with doing) in Gods plan but I at least feel secure in believeing that there will be a rapture. If you rather we call it a gathering instead of a rapture so be it. I wont be at all put out if you insist upon it but a gathering will take place. I'm just thankful that we're able to talk about this so freely to begin with!

    Lastly, weather the bible we use now has the word "rapture" written in it or not doesn't mean all that much since the reason the term is used now is to bring together the teaching of a gathering of saints together up in the clouds, from the four winds, by Gods angels on the sound of a trumpet at the last trump into one term we can use today when we want to talk about this teaching.

    I hope that all made sense, lol, I think it did!
     
  6. nephilimiyr

    nephilimiyr I've Been Keepin My Eyes Wide Open

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    Note that if God raptured Noah and his family to save them from his wrath there would be no people left on earth to replenish it! As in the end times when we are raptured we will be changed from corruptible to incorruptible.

    1 Cor. 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruptible, and this mortal must put on immotality.

    Noah and his family were not to be made immortal but stay mortal.

    No matter how you look at it the story of Noah or even that of Lot does shows that God has no intention for the righteous to suffer under his wrath. God ordered Noah to build the ark after he told him what he had planned to do. Likewise Lot was given warning of the fate of the cities and given chance to leave with his family.
     
  7. ephod

    ephod Member

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  8. jeffkrantz

    jeffkrantz New Member

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    Okay, the Greek, "harpazo" means "snatched." Nothing gentle or rapturous about it. There is no good reason to believe in the rapture, if you're faithful to Scripture, and if you're faithful to Jesus, there are lots of good reasons to tell everyone you can find that this is in fact a hideous and unChristian teaching.

    Jeff K (See my entire sermon, "There's no such thing as the rapture" at
    http://www.agapenetwork.org/pdf/NoRapture.pdf or listen to it at
    http://www.agapenetwork.org/audio/norapture.ram )
     
  9. ephod

    ephod Member

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  10. jeffkrantz

    jeffkrantz New Member

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    Dear Ephod,

    (what a great name!)

    Yes, I suppose it's the "pre-trib" rapture that I find so repugnant. (Maybe even that strange "mid-trib" thing.) That Jesus would "harpazo" the nice folks out and spare them the bad stuff. Really sloppy exegesis, not to mention the worst kind of Christian triumphalism.

    I believe that, prior to Christ's return, there will be a thoroughgoing dissolution of human culture, but that Christians are called to endure this alongside the rest of their sisters and brothers.

    I have to admit that I do not believe that John intended to write prophecy. After all, he named his own book an "apocalypse," which, by its very nature, is quite different from prophecy. I know that makes me unpopular among many of the users of this board, but I'm just going by what John himself called it.

    Apocalypse is a very different kind of literature from prophecy, has a different function among the faithful, and has to be read very carefully to avoid reading a lot of current assumptions back into a text that was never intended to carry them.

    This is why I think it's a poor use of my time to fret over things like first resurrections. There may be one, but it doesn't really matter. What matters to John is whether or not believers remain faithful in the face of persecution. Most of the rest of that book is window dressing.

    I believe that Jesus weeps every time we spend too much time trying to figure out exactly what the future holds based on an apocalyptic vision. That was never the point of those inspiritations, and to make more of them than that is something like a betrayal of their spirit.

    There may be two resurrections, but if there are, then those who are raised second won't know much about the difference in time. Who can tell time in the grave?

    What matters is whether or not we will continue to trust Jesus when the going gets rough, as it surely will in the years to come. It will be especially difficult when we are forced to realize that the United States bears a much closer resemblance to the whore of Babylon in Revelation than any other nation on earth. It is we who are drunk on the blood of the innocent, whose exploitation of the rest of the world makes us worthy of almost universal condemnation.

    Thanks for your careful, and care-filled post, Ephod. I hope that I haven't been too harsh in my rejection of this thoroughly un-Christian teaching. And I pray that you will find strength in the years to come to stand up with Jesus against the world's violence and degradation.

    Peace,

    Jeff K.
     
  11. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Could all of us righteous who will be in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) still not suffer under God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9) because during the tribulation nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until near the end of the tribulation, after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 15:1; Revelation 16), and none of the 7 vials are poured out on those of us who have obtained salvation? I believe we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12), which is the day I believe Jesus will come back (Revelation 19).

    I think it's important to make this distinction because many people -- including many Christians -- are going to be blaming God for everything bad that happens to them in the tribulation; they're going to be saying that God is the one causing all of their suffering, when in reality it will be Satan, evil men, and natural disasters that are causing it.

    Satan is going to try to use the suffering of the tribulation to turn people -- even us Christians -- away from God, to get us to believe that God is really a cruel and unjust tyrant who only wants mankind to suffer and be tortured, while Satan is the one trying to help us. We need to be able to say, no, this suffering is not from God, but from evil and natural sources, just as we Christians have always had to suffer in wars, famines, plagues, persecutions, and natural disasters throughout history, from the beginning of the church down until this day.

    In the pre-trib view, will we Christians who will be in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) all be appointed to wrath? Aren't being appointed to wrath and obtaining salvation mutually exclusive? "God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9).
     
  12. ephod

    ephod Member

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  13. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    The Antichrist will try to redefine man's concept of God (Revelation 13:6), possibly by propagating some of the doctrines of Gnosticism, one of the earliest enemies of the church.

    Gnostic teachings were rekindled in the early 1900's by a Madame Blavatsky and others and renamed Theosophy, the underlying doctrine of the New Age.

    The Antichrist may say that YHWH is the name of an evil power who made the physical universe, bound up spirits in physical bodies, and made them live on the earth under his oppressive laws and go through reincarnations so he could watch the events on earth for his amusement, while he (the Antichrist) has now arisen to set mankind free from YHWH's laws and from "the prison of our physical bodies." One of the underlying assumptions of Gnosticism was that matter was evil. This is why they said Christ could not have come in the flesh (1 John 4:3).

    Because of 2 Thessalonians 2:4-12 and Revelation 13:4-8, I believe the "strong delusion" will be that Satan and the Antichrist are God.

    The Antichrist and his False Prophet may teach that Lucifer ("light-bearer") is the real hero and God of mankind and YHWH its oppressor. He may say that Lucifer tried to free Adam and Eve from YHWH's tyranny from the start and that he told them the truth of their spiritual immortality when he said "You shall not surely die" (Genesis 3:1-5), but YHWH has been able to oppress a duped humanity up until these end times, when the serpent will return in all his magnificent glory to lead humanity in its final great battle and victory over YHWH (Revelation 12:9, 16:14-16).

    In the end times, counterfeit signs and miracles (Mark 13:22-23) will be performed through the power of demons. But because few people would willingly follow "demons," they will have to masquerade as something else (2 Corinthians 11:14-15). In ancient times demons masqueraded as "gods"; currently they're "Ascended Masters." In the end times they may also try to present themselves as rebel "aliens" liberated from YHWH's oppression who are now come to help us.

    But the Antichrist's defeat at the return of Christ is clearly portrayed in scripture (Revelation 19:20), so how could he possibly deceive people into fighting Christ at his return? And how could he cause them to "take the mark" when Revelation warns so clearly against it? (Revelation 14:9-11)

    First, worldwide, relatively few people read the Bible very much anymore. Even in the U.S., an entire generation is growing up knowing practically nothing of scripture. And many who do know the prophetic scriptures are now saying they aren't really that important for Christians to know because "we'll all be gone in a pre-trib rapture anyway." Others are saying that all the prophetic scriptures were already fulfilled in the past, while others are spiritualizing them away, saying they don't refer to outward events at all.

    Second, the Antichrist may claim the Bible is only YHWH's propaganda sent to deceive people. He may do his best to rid the earth of every Bible he can find, and have great success (Amos 8:12).

    Without the Bible, and completely deceived by the exciting powers given to the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 13:12-18) by the "Ascended Masters" or allied "aliens," the world will be brought to the point where it will willingly and joyfully worship the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-8) and even Lucifer himself in his true dragon form (Revelation 13:4, 12:3).

    I believe scriptures such as Revelation 19:11-20:10 will be entirely unknown, forgotten, or rejected as lies by most of the world in less than 10 years from now. A small remnant of the church will have them in remembrance and will hold onto them while in hiding or in prison or in insane asylums. They will be willing to die for them and the truth of Christ's victory which they portray (Revelation 6:9, 20:4; Mark 8:35-38, John 16:1-4).
     
  14. ephod

    ephod Member

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  15. Julie

    Julie ONLY JESUS CHRIST SAVES

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    "Why believe in the Rapture?"
    Because Gods word teaches it.
     
  16. Doreen

    Doreen Can I go back to sleep now?

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    Make yourself ready Mat 24:46; Mark 13:33.
    Look for His appearing titus 2:13.
    Looking for Him Mat 24:50; Luke 12:46; titus13.
    Not ashamed before Him at His coming 1 John 2:28.
    Do not leave your first love Rev 2:4.
    Be ready and watch Mat 24:42-43 ,25:13; Rev 16:15.
    See things happening know that it is near Mark 13:29.
    Be awake & aware what is happening Mark 13:36.
    Watch for the signs Luke 21:11, 24-25.
    When you see all these things know Mat 24:33.
    Warning the rapture is near Mat 24:44-46; 1 Tim 4:16.
    Who were ready Mat 25:10.
    See things happening know that it is near Mark 13:29.
    Be awake & aware what is happening Mark 13:36.
    Watch for the signs Luke 21:11, 24-25.
    Things begin to happen...look up! Luke 21:28.
    The Spirit and the bride say come! Rev 22:17.
     
  17. nephilimiyr

    nephilimiyr I've Been Keepin My Eyes Wide Open

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    I think your getting me wrong because I agreed with much of what you wrote. I do not believe in a pretrib rapture but I do believe in a rapture...Aha, Aha, Aha...I mean a gathering!
     
  18. Doreen

    Doreen Can I go back to sleep now?

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    I believe in a pre trib rapture myself
     
  19. Julie

    Julie ONLY JESUS CHRIST SAVES

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    Hi Doreen, that's good, most Bible believers do.
     
  20. ephod

    ephod Member

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