Why aren't you a Calvinist?

[Crazy Liz]

The intresting part of the verse 9 is IMO "all should" vs "all could". The Greek constuction of "all should" is some thing I have not looked at, but the Greek used in the bible for "could" is not the same word for 'should '. Could denotes an integral ablity from the root of the word, "should" does not reflect or denote the same integral abilty in the verb form reguardless of tense.

It is quite different if I said.

You should do thus and so. as compared too, You could do thus and so.

In "shoulding" you to do thus and so, I am now ineffect putting my understanding above yours, and telling you I know better than you. I have not shown any reguard to your ablity or lack there of. It is of my will you "should" do it.

In "coulding" you to do thus and so, I am now allowing you some leway as it were based on your willing ness to do it and I assume you have the ability.

The necissity of "should" here meaning that abilty is forgone and assumed with in the meaning of the word, lacks any useage or grammical constuct by it's very definition to see that as a true conclusion. Thus reading in to the text "ideas" that are not there and unsupported with in it's frame work.

For His Glory Alone!

Bill

Neither "should" nor "could" is found in the Greek here. The NASB gives a better translation WRT this aspect:

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman Foundation

 

[BBAS 64]

I don't know, perhaps at this particular time He was just praying for certain people such as His disciples. Do you pray for the whole world every time you pray?

Good day, Lynn

The passage tells us whom he is praying for.. "them that thou hast given me". In the intersesury pray here why did Jesus not pray for the whole world, but excludes them" everyone". I do not look at the Lords prayer here in the same light.

"God so loved the world" should speak volumes. He loves everybody.

I do not believe that any Calvinist would disagree with you here, depending upon you use of the word "love". God "loves" every one that is true even the heaten prosper. I love my Mom and I love my wife, but not the same.

Why did Jesus command His followers to go to all the world to preach the gospel to EVERY creature? What's the point in preaching to those who are already destined for hell? As I said before, if things are as Calvinists say they are, then God is contradicting Himself imho.

Because he did, you may see no point to it it is the means by which we hear. Those who do not hear do not hear cause they lack the abilty. We who do hear hear , because our Faith is the work of God. There is no contradiction here other than the one you have set.





You're entitled to your opinion. I don't share it. Peace.[/QUOTE]
Thanks, you are entitled to yours as well. I like you try to set opitions aside and seek the truth of God.

What is your taken on Peter 3:9 that I posted here?

For His Glory Alone!

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

Neither "should" nor "could" is found in the Greek here. The NASB gives a better translation WRT this aspect:

Good Day, Crazyliz

Thank you, I did not know that. Will look it up I was dealing with the text I was given. I would assume that in the translation process to convey ideas of the text as readable contextual words are added as to claify the writings.

I will add 2 transliterations:

2Pe 3:9 the Lord is not slow in regard to the promise, as certain count slowness, but is long-suffering to us, not counselling any to be lost but all to pass on to reformation,

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some regard slowness, _but_ He is waiting patiently towards us, not wanting any to be lost2 _but_ [for] all to make room for repentance.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

Please see some earlier posts. I won't bring it up anymore though.

The Doctrine of grace is also referred to by others in that we are saved by grace. Perhaps if you clarify the term when you use it and say Reformed Doctrine of grace?

Good Day, FIC

The doctrine of Grace does with in it contain "grace alone" as seen and used in most evengelical circles weather or not they are reformed. I do not see the "reformed" tag as a historic necissity as the ideas of such a Doctrine predate the refromation proper see Augustine work on Grace and predestination.

My understanding is that most 5 point Calvinists are hyper-calvinists, and that there are 4 pt. Calvinists, 3 pt. Calvinists, etc.

No, hyper Calvinist are a diffent bread than a five point Calvinist. They deny the means by which the elect are drawn.

My main problems with Calvinism are these:

1. It teaches that man is regenerated by the Holy Spirit before they believe, that they cannot even begin to beleive without this.

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,Eph 1:14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of {God's own} possession, to the praise of His glory.


The Holy Spirit is given to beleivers as a pledge by God of our eternal inheritance. I can't find any scripture that says the Holy Spirit indwells before there is belief, or regenerates before man responds.

Who said that THE H/S in dwelled a non believer? Is not your Faith a work of God? The verse you posted is a good one, I find it some what strange that you posted it for back a couple of verses we see some context:


Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Jhn 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
draw - helkuo - to draw without necessarily the notion of force.
If force is used, then suro would be the appropriate word.

I beleive the Father draws men to Christ, and when we claim to beleive, it is God who looks into our hearts and minds ( in isaiah I believe), knows our true intention and then grants it to us to come to Christ, giving us to Christ (also in John 6).

But we have to believe.

FIC, I must say I have never seen such as comparision here. The useage here of helkuo is a verb and used in much writtings that I have read in describing on who draws water from a well. Now I do not see how one draws water from a well with out force. Would you please site a source for the word suro.

"No one can come" we lacck the abilty to come with out the drawing of the father, you may think there is no force involved. I hope you agree that the drawing is effective in bring those to a belief.

2. Irresistible grace - grace was shown repeatedly to the Israelites... look at the miracles they saw. They resisted.

3. "The word 'world' is not 'world' - it means only the elect."
Jhn 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.Jhn 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
The Word 'world' in this verse is Kosmos - to set in order, space (as opposed to time), the sum totalof the material universe and the persons living.

I have to get back to this later....have some work to do...

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The son was given for the Believing ones, and not the world. The question is how does one become on of the one whom are the believing.

YLT:
Joh 3:14 `And as Moses did lift up the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up,

Joh 3:15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,

Joh 3:16 for God did so love the world, that His Son--the only begotten--He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

Do not work so hard.

Bill

 

[theseed]

Whatever you say. I know better than to continue debating as it's not going to change any Calvinist's mind nor is anything they say going to change mine for I read the Bible and have the witness in my soul from the Holy Spirit that Calvinism isn't right. It is nonsensical for God to plainly state that He desires none to perish and wants all to come to repentence and then turn around and make a decree that Christ only die for certain people that He picks and the rest can go straight to hell because they have no chance just because God decides they can't be saved. If this is the case God is contradicting Himself and the God I know doesn't contradict Himself. End of story

I have read the bible, and prayed, and studied for months myself, and The Holy Spirit has led me to the Truth too. The Light that enlightens every man has enlighted me--Jesus Christ (John 1:9).

You state that it's nonsensical for God to seemingly have 2 wills, yet we find this often in The Bible.

But I suppose you don't care, so I won't go into details.

May God continue to bless you in your studies

 

[theseed]

The Calvinist idea of evangelism has always baffled me. It feels like evangelism as a tool of hate, since its purpose is to make the state of the non-elect worse than it was before.

The state of the elect and non elect is constant, always has been.

 

[theseed]

But you might not be reading what I wrote. WHO in this thread referred to the other's belief as heretical and heredox? Was it a nonCalvinist? NO.

I NEVER, EVER, REFERRED TO YOUR BELIEFS HAS HERETICAL. YOU ARE PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH AND YOU NEED TO STOP AS THIS VIOLATES FORUM RULES!!!!!

 

[Crazy Liz]

You state that it's nonsensical for God to seemingly have 2 wills, yet we find this often in The Bible.

But I suppose you don't care, so I won't go into details.

May God continue to bless you in your studies

I've heard Calvinists accuse non-Calvinists of something similar to God having two wills when they say God desires people to love God freely, not out of compulsion. Therefore, although God wills for all to be saved, God also wills for humans to have freedom, which allows for the possibility some will reject salvation. The Calvinists argue against this that God's will is always done. Therefore, if God willed all to be saved, all would be saved.

I find it difficult to reconcile the Baptist belief in freedom of conscience with Calvinism, since Calvinists deny human freedom.

 

[theseed]

I've heard Calvinists accuse non-Calvinists of something similar to God having two wills when they say God desires people to love God freely, not out of compulsion. Therefore, although God wills for all to be saved, God also wills for humans to have freedom, which allows for the possibility some will reject salvation.

Acutally, I agree. God does not keep anyone from salvation, the bible is very clear about that--it only says that no one comes to Him unless accept by the power of the Holy Spirit. Arminiast believe this too, that we can only come by the help of the Spirit. This difference is that they believe in risistble grace, and Calvinist don't. Thier theolgoy is the antithesis of Calvinism. That is why they don't believe is OSAS.

I find it difficult to reconcile the Baptist belief in freedom of conscience with Calvinism, since Calvinists deny human freedom.

God's election to grace does not contradict human freedom, but is consistant with it.
"It is consistent with the free agency of man, and comprehends all the means in connection with the end." (Baptist Faith and Message)

http://www.utm.edu/martinarea/fbc/bfm/5.html

 

[BBAS 64]

I've heard Calvinists accuse non-Calvinists of something similar to God having two wills when they say God desires people to love God freely, not out of compulsion. Therefore, although God wills for all to be saved, God also wills for humans to have freedom, which allows for the possibility some will reject salvation. The Calvinists argue against this that God's will is always done. Therefore, if God willed all to be saved, all would be saved.

I find it difficult to reconcile the Baptist belief in freedom of conscience with Calvinism, since Calvinists deny human freedom.

Good Day, Liz

I do not beleieve that any Calvinist deny the free will of man, it is the condition of that will that is the biblical question.

It was the evil use of free will that man destroyed both it and himself.. Augustine

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[FreeinChrist]

I NEVER, EVER, REFERRED TO YOUR BELIEFS HAS HERETICAL. YOU ARE PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH AND YOU NEED TO STOP AS THIS VIOLATES FORUM RULES!!!!!

No, Seed , you did not refer to my beliefs as heretical. Another poster referred to nonCalvinist beliefs as heretical. I even pointed out the posts.

How am I to take this post from a Calvinist (note what I make bold)?:
"You can't avoid the truth just because it doesn't "tickle your ears" and make you feel all warm and gooey inside. God defines who we are, we don't define who God is or how He should accomplish salvation in us. How arrogant and heretical of us to stray away from foundational Biblical truths just because it goes against our culture's acceptance."

and
"I am begging my fellow Baptists to study Theology, study your roots, and don't fall captive of modern resurgences of classic heresies that date back to the beginning of the Christian Church!"

So please chill. Prior to the above quotes, this thread was friendly. I found the above posts offensive, as heresy is an ugly accusation. When I ready your comment about empty and hollow theology...I found that rather offensive as well. So please go back and review this thread. You will see that I did not accuse you personally of making the heresy charge....but a Calvinist.

Personally, I think people are way to free with that word.

 

[theseed]

FIC, At any given time, I have neither said your theology was hollow, nor did I say it was empty.

I only said that my theology was not the usual Calvinist rhetoric that you hear.

 

[FreeinChrist]

[/color][/size][/color][/size]

Good Day, FIC

The doctrine of Grace does with in it contain "grace alone" as seen and used in most evengelical circles weather or not they are reformed. I do not see the "reformed" tag as a historic necissity as the ideas of such a Doctrine predate the refromation proper see Augustine work on Grace and predestination.

Considering what I responded to, this statement makes no sense.

So please clarify, do you believe we are saved by grace alone, or by grace through faith in Jesus Christ?

Who said that THE H/S in dwelled a non believer?

How is the unbeliever regenerated in order to have the ability to believe if he doesn't have the Holy Spirit? It is the Holy Spirit that does the washing of regeneration. We are given the Holy spirit as a pledge from God of our inheritance - that is the indwelling.
Yet I have had many a Calvinist claim that the Holy Spirit regenerates us so that we can beleive in the first place. Makes no sense.

Is not your Faith a work of God? The verse you posted is a good one, I find it some what strange that you posted it for back a couple of verses we see some context:


Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

He predestinated mankind for salvation. He has always wanted for man to be reconciled to Him. However, many won't be.

I must say I have never seen such as comparision here. The useage here of helkuo is a verb and used in much writtings that I have read in describing on who draws water from a well. Now I do not see how one draws water from a well with out force. Would you please site a source for the word suro.

An example of suro is Acts 8:3 : Act 8:3 But Saul {began} ravaging the church, entering house after house, and dragging off men and women, he would put them in prison.

helkuo - can be drawing with or without force ( I beleive I said that). If God was not going to give amn a choice....why did He let the Israelites mess up so many times?

"No one can come" we lacck the abilty to come with out the drawing of the father, you may think there is no force involved. I hope you agree that the drawing is effective in bring those to a belief.

I agree with this. I don't agree that we are regenerated before we believe.

Joh 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The son was given for the Believing ones, and not the world. The question is how does one become on of the one whom are the believing.

I'm sorry but that is not what the verse says.

YLT:
Joh 3:14 `And as Moses did lift up the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up,

Joh 3:15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,

Joh 3:16 for God did so love the world, that His Son--the only begotten--He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

This supports my point. Christ died for everyone, making salvation available to everyone, like Moses lifted the serpent for all the Israelites. It was those that obeyed the instruction of Moses that lived . It is those that believe in Christ that will have eternal life in heaven.

 

[theseed]

The verse says that God's wrath is revealed from heaven against men's sin and the fact that man holds the truth in unrighteousness. It states God has revealed Himself to all men and therefore all men are without excuse. This begs the question. . .why would God reveal Himself to all men and base His wrath on the fact that men know the truth but reject it, IF some men could not respond to God's revelation of Himself? Further, the Calvinist must concluded that when he preaches the Gospel and presents salvation to his listeners he is doing so "tongue in cheek." He must admit he is offering something that some hearing him cannot receive because God will not permit them to. The Gospel then becomes "Good News," only to the select few. The others, who the Calvinist says is born for hell, are wasting their time even hearing of Christ's death, burial and resurrection, because they cannot receive Christ.

Your argument is a straw man. If you, sincerely have any questions then ask.

Your arguments show how much you don't know about reformed theology.

Or is this another cut and paste? More spam :spam:

No time, ever, have Calvinist taught that God rejects those that come to Him. This is a straw man. You must be thinking of Hyper-Calvinism, which is barely like Calvinism.

 

[FreeinChrist]

FIC, At any given time, I have neither said your theology was hollow, nor did I say it was empty.

I only said that my theology was not the usual Calvinist rhetoric that you hear.

Perhaps I misunderstood this comment:
"I am not trying to either, I am just refuting the empty and hollow anti-calvinist rederick that you and others pose--out of misinformation."
It was made to another....but I am one of those who posted nonCalvinist views in this thread.
I'm sorry if it came across that I thought you had used the 'h' words. I tried to be clear, but probably failed at that.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Your argument is a straw man. If you, sincerely have any questions then ask.

Your arguments show how much you don't know about reformed theology.

Or is this another cut and paste? More spam :spam:

No time, ever, have Calvinist taught that God rejects those that come to Him. This is a straw man. You must be thinking of Hyper-Calvinism, which is barely like Calvinism.

I have already posted the sites. Please do not accuse of spamming.....that is when one posts the same thing over and over on different threads. I didn't do that.
Argue the points instead. Show me it's wrong.

 

[BBAS 64]

Considering what I responded to, this statement makes no sense.

So please clarify, do you believe we are saved by grace alone, or by grace through faith in Jesus Christ?

Good day, FIC

My response was in line with the notion that the Doctrine of Grace should be be tagged with the reformed title. I affirm both the Grace alone and faith alone doctrines.

How is the unbeliever regenerated in order to have the ability to believe if he doesn't have the Holy Spirit? It is the Holy Spirit that does the washing of regeneration. We are given the Holy spirit as a pledge from God of our inheritance - that is the indwelling.

Yet I have had many a Calvinist claim that the Holy Spirit regenerates us so that we can beleive in the first place. Makes no sense.

So, let me see if I got this straight. An unregenrate person is in dwelled by the H/S first then is brought to faith? I would say that the work of God is to regenate a person by the means of the H/S, without the indwelling. The regenration is done by an external force upon the unregenrate person, and not with in.

FIC
He predestinated mankind for salvation. He has always wanted for man to be reconciled to Him. However, many won't be.

BBAS Eph 1:4

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Then in order for that to be true, one would have to conclude that the "us/we " in this passage means mankind. Which is impossible seeing the word for man kind is:
anth-ro'-pee-nos which does not apear in this chapter at all.

[/size]An example of suro is Acts 8:3 : Act 8:3 But Saul {began} ravaging the church, entering house after house, and dragging off men and women, he would put them in prison.

helkuo - can be drawing with or without force ( I beleive I said that). If God was not going to give amn a choice....why did He let the Israelites mess up so many times?

I agree with this. I don't agree that we are regenerated before we believe.

I will look at the source Acts 8:3: could you please explain the "no one can come". How do they come what is the means by which they are compelled to come? Out side of your dis agreement with reguards to regeneration.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

If you agree that our belief is the work of God, why is not our regeneration his work as well?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

I'm sorry but that is not what the verse says.

This supports my point. Christ died for everyone, making salvation available to everyone, like Moses lifted the serpent for all the Israelites. It was those that obeyed the instruction of Moses that lived . It is those that believe in Christ that will have eternal life in heaven.

I used that traslation to show there is not connection between the"world-everyone" and the ones whom are of the type beleiving. If you would like to address the idom of hebrew the raising up of the serpent we can do that, but that will be another thread.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[FreeinChrist]

Good day, FIC

My response was in line with the notion that the Doctrine of Grace should be be tagged with the reformed title. I affirm both the Grace alone and faith alone doctrines.

hmmm...you had written this (note what i make bold):
"In reading though this thread from those whom do not up hold the doctrines of Grace. I can say that I have been there and understand the issues you have raised. It wouls appear though that not may Baptist have read Spurgeon with reguards to this issue and the historical view of Baptists and the doctrines of Grace."
Since I, and many other nonCalvinists, beleive that salvation is by grace through faith....how are we not holding up the doctrines of Grace? I asked this before and you wrote:
"The term Doctrines of Grace has been used over and over by Augustine to current day people such as James White to describe the whole of refemormed theology."
That is why I suggest, when debating nonCalvinists, you make of point of saying the Reformed Doctrine of Grace. For one thing, you can't honestly refer to Augustine as Reformed. The Reformation happened about 1200 years after Augustine.

It would be more accurate to say that we disagree on aspects fo salvation, but not to imply that we do not believe in salvation by grace. So I beleive my suggestion has merit, if you are going to debate with nonCalvinists.

So, let me see if I got this straight. An unregenrate person is in dwelled by the H/S first then is brought to faith?

That is what some Calvinists have claimed. They claim the person is regenerated first - then brought to belief in Christ. Yet, scripture shows that belief comes before the indwelling.

I would say that the work of God is to regenate a person by the means of the H/S, without the indwelling. The regenration is done by an external force upon the unregenrate person, and not with in.

I can't find scriptural support for that.

Then in order for that to be true, one would have to conclude that the "us/we " in this passage means mankind. Which is impossible seeing the word for man kind is:
anth-ro'-pee-nos which does not apear in this chapter at all.

I beleive it is consistent with the overall message from God. that Paul was addressing Christians is the reson for the us/we....but doesn't change that He planned for mankind to come to salvation:

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.


Now I have read the Reformed postionion on this verse, but I beleive it is in eror as it is about John 3:16 in claiming the world kosmos doesn't mean the world (kosmos).
1Ti 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties {and} prayers, petitions {and} thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men,1Ti 2:2 for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, {and} one mediator also between God and men, {the} man Christ Jesus,1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony {given} at the proper time.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

If you agree that our belief is the work of God, why is not our regeneration his work as well?

Regeneration is the work of the Holy Spirit.
Tts 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,Tts 3:6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
2Cr 1:21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God,
2Cr 1:22 who also sealed us and gave {us} the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The 'work of God', in this verse, refers to the fact that the Word was made flesh and sent to die for our sins and we are to beleive. It is not saying that it is His work to make (forcibly)some to believe and leave the rest to suffer in hell.

We do have to beleive. No way around that.

I used that traslation to show there is not connection between the"world-everyone" and the ones whom are of the type beleiving. If you would like to address the idom of hebrew the raising up of the serpent we can do that, but that will be another thread.

I don't see that it supports your position. Moses held the serpent up for all the Israelites to see.


Now there is an interesting thing about this that I read in the New England Jounal of Medicine about 20 years ago. There is a disease endemic to the Sinai penninsula called, in English, Guinea Worm disease. Ancient Hebrew did not have a separate word for worm...it was the same word for snake.

What happens with this disease is that a person drinks from water with the worm larvae in it, and the larvae settle in the subcutaneous tissues. It grows there to about 3 feet long, though coiled. The area where it grows becomes painful and sore. If you try to remove the worm, it will break and the toxin inside the worm gets out and kills. The ONLY way to remove the wrom is to let it come out by itself, by holding a stick at the wound and the worm will circle up the stick and come out.
Read the account of this problem in Numbers. 'Uttermost' probably should be translated 'outermost'. They campd around a main water source. The ones who sinned probably drank from another water source that was contaminated. By holding up the staff with the snake, Moses was showing them how to deal with the 'snake' removal without dying. If they did it another way, they would have died. There was one way to salvation....they had to do it that way.

 

[theseed]

Perhaps I misunderstood this comment:
"I am not trying to either, I am just refuting the empty and hollow anti-calvinist rederick that you and others pose--out of misinformation."
It was made to another....but I am one of those who posted nonCalvinist views in this thread.
I'm sorry if it came across that I thought you had used the 'h' words. I tried to be clear, but probably failed at that.

Theology = rhetoric?

 

[theseed]

I have already posted the sites. Please do not accuse of spamming.....that is when one posts the same thing over and over on different threads. I didn't do that.
Argue the points instead. Show me it's wrong.

Because you site websites does not mean you are not spamming.

Don't you know that I can spam back with the kind of cut and past techniques?