Why are so many people so bad?

[Allandavid]

They aren’t.....

 

[dysert]

They aren’t.....

I think you hold the minority opinion.

 

[Petros2015]

Is there really such a thing? Is God having children here, and over there Satan is having children too?

I wonder.

Matthew 13:27-29

The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. So the servants asked him, ‘- Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ 29‘No,’ he said, ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them.…

 

[Oseas]

Human nature.

You wrote in your post #39 : >>>Human nature<<<

To all
Who reads understand and compare and meditates on this

John 3:31-33
31 He that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from above is above all.
32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

Luke 11:11-14
JESUS said:
11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13 If ye then, BEING EVIL, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
14 And he was casting out a devil, and it was dumb. And it came to pass, when the devil was gone out, the dumb spake; and the people wondered.

Matthew 19:16-17
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God

Genesis 3:9&17-19&22-24
9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground (the earth) for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 THORNS also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Thorns? Who are the thorns? Numbers 33:55 among others
55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and THORNS in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell. (All the nations and their inhabitants are as THORNS spread over the Earth)

Genesis 4:8-11
8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
9 And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;

1John 3:10-12
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

John 3:34-36
34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

[DogmaHunter]

This is a serious question. Let's pretend, for the sake of this thread, that there is no spiritual realm and there was no Fall. What reason do people give for the abundance of bad people? Thieves, liars, sexual predators, murderers, etc. It's rife, and it's non-stop. In the absence of a spiritual realm, why are so many people so bad?

Honestly, I don't see it being so rampant or frequent.
MOST people I meet, are not "rapists, murderers and thieves".

MOST people I meet, are relatively normal people with their good and less-good sides.
But there is a difference obviously between "less-good sides" and downright "evil" sides.

"less good" would be things like consiously speeding on an empty road, driving home while knowing you had 1 glass of whine to many (but thus aren't utterly drunk - rather just slightly over the legal limit), etc

"downright evil" being things like planning and executing full-scale robberies, murders, etc.

The "downright evil" people, are not numerous at all. They are a minority among a minority.

There are some 7 billion people in this world you know.... You might read every day an article about a murder somewhere... but nobody is writing about the billions that just go about there day.



As for why that minority engages therein.... Lot's of reasons, I reckon. And I don't think you could pinpoint one or a collection of reasons that would apply to all, unless you got into rather abstract / generic wordings, with which you would end up with something so general that it wouldn't mean much anymore.

Some are just messed up in their heads.
Some lack empathy, are psychopathic, and simply don't see any fault with such behaviour.
Others might feel like having no other choice to escape poverty or whatever misery they might find themselves in.
Some might realise fully they are engaging in deeply immoral behaviour but simply don't care much because their own selfishness clouds their judgement.
Etc etc.

 

[quatona]

This is a serious question. Let's pretend, for the sake of this thread, that there is no spiritual realm and there was no Fall. What reason do people give for the abundance of bad people? Thieves, liars, sexual predators, murderers, etc. It's rife, and it's non-stop. In the absence of a spiritual realm, why are so many people so bad?

I´m not sure what the presence or absence of a "spiritual realm" (whatever that may be) has to do with anything.
People need to balance their own needs and those of 7 billions other people - which are often in conflict. That´s a pretty difficult task.
Also: Whenever I talk with a person who is labeled "bad" by others, I am arriving at the conclusion that this is a pretty lazy label. Each of them have their own causes and reasons for making their choices the way they do.

 

[quatona]

I think you hold the minority opinion.

I guess it´s a glass half full/half empty kind of thing (wherein some people would even call a 95% full glass "half empty" ) .
However, when it comes to "thieves, liars, sexual predators, murderers" (as per your OP), let´s look at the statistics.

 

[dysert]

Honestly, I don't see it being so rampant or frequent.
MOST people I meet, are not "rapists, murderers and thieves".

MOST people I meet, are relatively normal people with their good and less-good sides.
But there is a difference obviously between "less-good sides" and downright "evil" sides.

"less good" would be things like consiously speeding on an empty road, driving home while knowing you had 1 glass of whine to many (but thus aren't utterly drunk - rather just slightly over the legal limit), etc

"downright evil" being things like planning and executing full-scale robberies, murders, etc.

The "downright evil" people, are not numerous at all. They are a minority among a minority.

There are some 7 billion people in this world you know.... You might read every day an article about a murder somewhere... but nobody is writing about the billions that just go about there day.

Well I specifically didn't say "most". And I haven't used "evil" since we're assuming no spiritual realm. However, I suspect that every day there's at least a murder in most big cities. Watch the local news for a few days and you'll see how much violent crime goes on in your city. Multiply that by the hundreds of decent-sized cities in the USA. Then expand out into how many bad people there are in positions of power throughout the world.

Being bad is prolific, and I just wonder why people have that propensity in a purely materialistic world.

 

[quatona]

Being bad is prolific, and I just wonder why people have that propensity in a purely materialistic world.

...whereas it would make complete sense in a spiritual world?

 

[dysert]

I´m not sure what the presence or absence of a "spiritual realm" (whatever that may be) has to do with anything.
People need to balance their own needs and those of 7 billions other people - which are often in conflict. That´s a pretty difficult task.
Also: Whenever I talk with a person who is labeled "bad" by others, I am arriving at the conclusion that this is a pretty lazy label. Each of them have their own causes and reasons for making their choices the way they do.

It is relevant because if there is a spiritual realm, this realm could include an evil side, which would easily account for man's propensity toward evil. I just wanted to look at the question from a purely secular/materialistic pov (if possible).

 

[dysert]

...whereas it would make complete sense in a spiritual world?

Yes.

 

[quatona]

It is relevant because if there is a spiritual realm, this realm could include an evil side, which would easily account for man's propensity toward evil.

So, with there being a spiritual realm, you´d be content with the explanation "because that´s the way it is"?

I just wanted to look at the question from a purely secular/materialistic pov (if possible).

I´m not sure what exactly needs to be explained about it. Why would you expect the opposite?

 

[quatona]

Yes.

I don´t see how it does. (Saying "there just is this spiritual side" isn´t an explanation).

 

[quatona]

This is a serious question. Let's pretend, for the sake of this thread, that there is no spiritual realm and there was no Fall. What reason do people give for the abundance of bad people? Thieves, liars, sexual predators, murderers, etc. It's rife, and it's non-stop. In the absence of a spiritual realm, why are so many people so bad?

Maybe it would be a good idea for you to discuss it with those who keep asking the very opposite question: Why, in the absence of a spiritual realm, is there morality?

 

[dysert]

So, with there being a spiritual realm, you´d be content with the explanation "because that´s the way it is"?

I´m not sure what exactly needs to be explained about it. Why would you expect the opposite?

Not with "because that's the way it is", but if we assumed a spiritual realm, then we have a fairly complete explanation of evil from the Bible. The fall of Lucifer, the temptation and Fall of Adam & Eve, the line of sin passed from generation to generation, etc.

Without a spiritual realm, I haven't seen a good explanation of "that's the way it is". For example, we know of the coriolis effect. It's natural to ask why, and the materialists can come up with an explanation. I'm just wondering what the materialists proffer as an explanation for badness vs. goodness.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

And 49% of homicides in the US are perpetrated by African-Americans and most of those are directed against other African-Americans.

Dangerous reasoning that.

That shows that frustration and anger levels are higher in blacks.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Well I specifically didn't say "most".

No, you said an "abundance", which in my world means "a lot".
That's not my experience. Most people, are not murderers etc.

And I haven't used "evil" since we're assuming no spiritual realm

The "spiritual realm" doesn't have a monopoly on that world.
"evil" is a general term which can be used to group deeply immoral behaviour. You might have noticed that I didn't capitalize the word either.

However, I suspect that every day there's at least a murder in most big cities.

Sure. And such big cities are home to millions of people.
1 in a few million, doesn't really square well with the description of "an abundance" - that's my point.

Watch the local news for a few days and you'll see how much violent crime goes on in your city.

Like I said, the news outlets will cover the few that engage in crimes, but they will not cover the millions or billions that just live their lives in peace.

Multiply that by the hundreds of decent-sized cities in the USA. Then expand out into how many bad people there are in positions of power throughout the world.

And then do the same for all those other people in those same cities who just go about their daily lives in peace.

Sure, if you only count the murderers, rapists, etc, you'll get to a few hundred thousand easily. But as said, there are 7 billion people in the world.

Sorry if I'm driving it home, but the way you worded your OP, I felt I had to nuance it a bit.

 

[DogmaHunter]

It is relevant because if there is a spiritual realm, this realm could include an evil side, which would easily account for man's propensity toward evil. I just wanted to look at the question from a purely secular/materialistic pov (if possible).

Wait...

Does that mean that you are saying that in the context of a "spiritual realm", people aren't responsible for their bad behaviour? And that they then are "driven" by some kind of "evil side" / external forces of reality and that that in itself, explains their wrongdoings?

 

[dysert]

Wait...

Does that mean that you are saying that in the context of a "spiritual realm", people aren't responsible for their bad behaviour? And that they then are "driven" by some kind of "evil side" / external forces of reality and that that in itself, explains their wrongdoings?

Of course not. If we were assuming the existence of a spiritual realm, it would indicate that there are "outside" forces at work to influence people towards doing things that are bad. Being influenced is different from actually committing the act. And it would explain why all people have an evil bent since we've all been affected by the sin of the Fall.

 

[durangodawood]

Sorry I don't understand what you are saying here, but I'm a rookie at philosophy so I can definitely be making some mistakes, feel free to correct me if my terminology is off.

But my biggest problem so far as I understand materialism is to deny the looking glass that every human sees through. I forget if you said it in here, but the best we can do is look at the cards in the deck (of reality), and we should really separate the cards that we know are in the deck (from our perspective) from the deeper philosophical thoughts of inventing cards (like theories that we are really just brains in a vat on some other planet light years away, or that I didn't just see what happened with my own eyes, but rather my eyes are just an illusion, etc). If you boil everything down, at the most basic level humans can only make judgement calls on reality through the lens of being a human. The things that we literally experience are the greatest 'Proofs' that we can ever hope for...and through our vantage point of being human virtually every one of us who has ever existed understands (again because we all literally experience it) contemplating 'Meaning.' We also 'Experience' this tug of war between these scientifically meaningless concepts called right & wrong. And we are completely surrounded by other 'Test Subjects' that confirm this, "Hey John you've had thoughts about meaning right? Jen, you've thought about meaning, and right & wrong haven't you? Hey Bob..., etc" I literally can't find any human who says no to these questions! So this would be a virtually universal consensus. A consensus like that is firm ground in my book.

But to say these experiences are not real data because science can't measure it is to have humans literally throw away unanimous experiential evidence, which is the greatest of all evidence. The tool of scientific inquiry is literally the wrong tool for an answer to meaning, you may as well bring a ruler with you to figure out how many gallons of water is inside of a tub. When people contemplate meaning the first things that come to mind are things outside of scientific measurement such as love, the search for happiness, the desire to see your kids happy, the joy of competition, the realization that you're head over heels in love with NASCAR lol, etc. I'm a total beginner with philosophy, but I am finding it confusing that a lot of people are taking a tool that can not even measure meaning (science)...and using it to reach their conclusion that there IS no meaning (only matter and space). Huh?? Why did they use that which can't measure meaning to reach a conclusion about meaning??

But I think getting even closer to materialism theory would be using the idea that all the materials that make up a human brain 'Mimic' a quest for meaning, but so what, that's simply what the materials result in if you combine them the right way...an entity called 'A Human' that thinks it has meaning pops out. Well my problem with that is that you again are throwing the human vantage point away (which is your REAL foundational deck of cards). We look for logical patterns that make sense everywhere, like in biology, among so many other things. And from our vantage point of observation this whole 'Making logical sense' thing seems to have a pretty impressive record. Eye matter makes sense for this reason, and for that reason...preditors have narrow eyes as opposed to wider eyed prey for a logical reason. Ear matter makes an awful lot of sense for hearing. The matter that makes up the anatomy of a penguin makes sense for a trillion different minute logical reasons so that it will survive in insanely cold temperatures, and the list goes on & on.

BUT...the matter that causes the human brain to contemplate meaning (and think that meaning actually exists) was just a practical joke? Nothing concrete behind it, no actual meaning? Why throw away pattern recognition when we reach this specific example of materials placed together for a logical reason? Where there was eye matter there was vision. Where there was ear matter there was hearing. Where there was penguin matter there was surviving in Antarctica. Since we are up to our eyeballs in examples of matter configurations that make logical sense, I would have to follow up with the pattern and ALSO infer that the matter that makes up a human brain that thinks 'Meaning' is real, also makes sense, and is not just a practical joke.

Well thats a great post. I'm mostly uneducated in philosophy too, so I'm not bothered by that one bit.

"Meaning" is a excellent issue to examine for exploring materialism vs the soul or spirit.

When I put on my materialist lab coat (which I'm not always wearing), the explanation I give for meaning goes like this:

The eye evolved to doing seeing tasks (as you noted).
The ear evolved to do hearing tasks.

But the human brain evolved the capacity to do thinking tasks. And while the specific thinking tasks needed for survival were probably pretty finite, the mere capacity to think opens us to near infinite possibilities or ideas: in other words imagination, the capacity to invent things and ideas that are currently not real - or perhaps may never even be real.

Among those ideas is could well be "why?".
Why do seasons change and come back around in a circular fashion?
Why does lighting split the tree in half?
Why am I here?

A related explanation is that we observe in our own minds a purpose for every action we ourselves do.
Why do I make fire? To cook food.
Why do we go north? To hunt bison.
etc.
And, finding a positive reasonable answer for every question, we project that sort of expectation onto nature, onto everything, resulting in questions like:
Why am I here?
Why is the world here?
etc.

So, I think thats the origin of the demand for meaning. We dont demand it because its actually out there (though it may well be). We demand it because we have the basic capacity to ask why. And a single unanswered "why?", when everything else seem to have an answer, is really unsettling.