Why are so many Christians fans of Ayn Rand?

DaisyDay

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Oh, you don't have to take my word for it - all you have to do is remember that libs are all for women's rights, unless the women are Sarah Palin and her daughters or Ann Coulter. They are all for minority rights unless the minorities are Clarence Thomas or Michelle Malkin. I have seen some of the vile emails Malkin receives.
That's total malarkey! A person can be for someone's rights yet find the individual abhorrent.

Why should their attitude toward the poor be any different?
It isn't - libs are in favor of their rights.
 
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EdwinWillers

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In all her writing there is a void of any sembelence of charity. Charity in the Biblical sense of the word, larger than simple alms giving; of human understanding or loving kindness. In her books, as a subtext behind every line and twisting in every point is a hysterical, hateful misanthropy. Its enjoyable if you think you are part of Ms. Rand's elect, and can't or don't care to consider the suffering of the millions who she has cleanly claimed as subhuman parasites or worse.
Ms Rand did not deify charity and some are wont to do, it is true. Jesus said of the poor that we will always have them with us. It was not His intent we therefore dismiss their needs but neither was it His intent we deify them. Indeed in repudiating that person's complaint He acknowledged there is an even greater focus, a greater emphasis in life - yet not to the exclusion of other needs.

I will leave it to the reader to figure out who that person was.

As in any book, the author will choose to focus on one topic rather than address a plethora of topics. Indeed, in Atlas Shrugged, charity is given less than deific praise inasmuch as her emphasis for an individual - is on their acceptance of individual responsibility rather than on the acceptance of alms in order to get ahead in life.

No reasonable person would view this as some sort of "hateful misanthropy" because she didn't address a particular person's or group's self interests.

Yet quite ironically, albeit indirectly, she does address the topic of charity - from their perspective. She even puts names and characters to that bastardized version of deplorable charity. Hank Reardon's brother is the chief character of "charity" in her novel - a quisling of a man who feels guilty because of his own fortunes in life so seeks out all manner of misguided "charities" to promote in order to assuage his own guilt. Having neither resources of his own, nor the wherewithall or strength of character which belies true concern for those in need, he instead feigns pity for those less fortunate than he to beg for alms on their behalf.

Where her antagonists fail so miserably in "caring for the needy" her protagonists succeed remarkably inasmuch as they are the ones who provide all the jobs, who provide people the means to fend for themselves rather than ensure they are kept in the ranks of misery dependent on the "charity" of the "charitable" for their existence.

She understood their "charity" quite well - and addressed it as incisively as it deserves.
 
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DaisyDay

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I remember when I was out of work - I lost my job and my home, and the lefties on a forum just like this one were still telling me to "sell everything I had and give it to the poor". When I told them I was poor and had nothing to sell, they told me to get off my ass and get a job.
A forum just like this one? Do you have a link to the thread where "the lefties" do that?
 
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lordbt

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayn_Rand

Rand advocated reason as the only means of acquiring knowledge and rejected all forms of faith and religion. She supported rational egoism and rejected ethical altruism

In ethical philosophy, rational egoism (also called rational selfishness or egotism) is the principle that an action is rational if and only if it maximizes one's self-interest

Altruism (also called the ethic of altruism, moralistic altruism, and ethical altruism) is an ethical doctrine that holds that individuals have a moral obligation to help, serve, or benefit others, if necessary at the sacrifice of self interest
In 1954 Rand's close relationship with the much younger Nathaniel Branden turned into a romantic affair, with the consent of their spouses.[51]
In 1964 Nathaniel Branden began an affair with the young actress Patrecia Scott, whom he later married. Nathaniel and Barbara Branden kept the affair hidden from Rand. When she learned of it in 1968, though her romantic relationship with Branden had already ended,[73] Rand terminated her relationship with both Brandens, which led to the closure of NBI.[74] Rand published an article in The Objectivist repudiating Nathaniel Branden for dishonesty and other "irrational behavior in his private life."


Why did Rand publish an article?
repudiating Nathaniel Branden for dishonesty and other "irrational behavior in his private life."

Rand preaches egotism “the principle that an action is rational if and only if it maximizes one's self-interest”, but when she has to live her philosophy she gets all upset. If Rand was in power in government she probably would have taxed Branden and put regulations on him.

Rand did not practice what she preached
There is a movie available right now on pay-per-view called Atlas Shrugged. Rather than draw your knowledge of Rand from Wiki, why dont you drop the $4.99, watch the movie and come back here and tell me what you think. I am genuinely interested in what a person who has not read the book thinks of the movie. If you are a fan of older movies, pick up a copy of The Fountainhead starring Gary Cooper and Patricia Neal. The movies are no substitute for the books, but they blow away Wiki.
 
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lordbt

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In Atlas Shrugged Ms Rand makes a clear and marked distinction between two key groups of people in the world - between those who make the world work, and those who like parasites feed off the energy, vitality, creativity, and productivity of the former. The one she calls the prime movers, the other she correctly identifies as looters. Eddie Willers is a key character in the first group; not someone with the talent or drive of a Dagny or Reardon, but someone who shares their values and is totally loyal to them to the end.

Interestingly, one of the key antagonists in the book is also one of the least capable individuals, yet one of the most powerful. Elevated to his position by the privilege of birth, corrupted by a life of entitlement and largesse handed to him by others rather than acquired with his own talents and energy, he allowed his envy and greed to consume what remnants of individual character he had left. Rather than accept his position of absolute privilege and allow his character to grow, he cravenly allowed it to deteriorate.

It is James Taggart who is the anti-Willers in the book, who saw in Eddie his own true level of talent, but who in his artificially elevated position rose even higher in the ranks of the looters, whose fall was just as ignominius and thoroughly proper. It was James Taggert who viewed Eddie as a sniveling lapdog, the hapless boob - precisely because he recognized in Eddie himself without the privilege, himself without the opportunity, himself without the energy, the vision, and the willingness to take the risks necessary to become the prime mover his sister was - which is precisely why James Taggart disdained and hated Eddie as he did - because Eddie, he knew, had done far more in his lack of all those things than he ever could with them; and it was Eddie, he knew, who had the strength of character to make at least something of very little. It was Eddie whom James Taggart avoided like the plague - because it was Eddie who concretely revealed his own failings, his own disloyalty, his own sniveling, his own haplessness - all brought on by his own lack of character which he'd abandoned as soon as he recognized that life doesn't happen, success doesn't happen, but must be worked for, and that with whatever resources one has available to them, to make with what they can.

James Taggart is the epitome of greed and materialism in the book - and the logical end to both when allowed to run their course in individuals without the character to recognize their own self-induced sense of entitlement.

That's, in part at least, why I chose the name Edwin Willers. I'm no John Galt; I'm no Hank Reardon. But neither am I James Taggart.
Bravo EW! When I read Daniel25's description of Eddie Willers as a "sniveling lapdog"--which was a not so veiled flame aimed at you--I immediately thought of how he clearly confused Eddie with James Taggart. But thank you for spelling it out better than I could. Either way, unless there is a liberal website somewhere that can formulate a response to your post, I dont expect to see Daniel25 back anytime soon.
 
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Belk

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There is a movie available right now on pay-per-view called Atlas Shrugged. Rather than draw your knowledge of Rand from Wiki, why dont you drop the $4.99, watch the movie and come back here and tell me what you think. I am genuinely interested in what a person who has not read the book thinks of the movie. If you are a fan of older movies, pick up a copy of The Fountainhead starring Gary Cooper and Patricia Neal. The movies are no substitute for the books, but they blow away Wiki.


I'll see if they have it on netflix.

ETA: They do - http://movies.netflix.com/Search?v1=Atlas Shrugged: Part 1&oq=atlas s&ac_posn=1&ac_rec=true

I'll add it to my queue.
 
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lordbt

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I'll see if they have it on netflix.

ETA: They do - Netflix - Unlimited TV Shows & Movies Online

I'll add it to my queue.
Great :thumbsup: Just so you know, this is just part 1. Parts 2&3 havent been filmed yet so you may wind up with more questions than answers. But you will get a general sense of what Rand is saying apart from the vitriol and misrepresentations of her detractors.
 
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sdmsanjose

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Posted by sdmsanjose http://www.christianforums.com/t7551943-post59089492/#post59089492


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayn_Rand

Rand advocated reason as the only means of acquiring knowledge and rejected all forms of faith and religion. She supported rational egoism and rejected ethical altruism

In ethical philosophy, rational egoism (also called rational selfishness or egotism) is the principle that an action is rational if and only if it maximizes one's self-interest

Altruism (also called the ethic of altruism, moralistic altruism, and ethical altruism) is an
ethical doctrine that holds that individuals have a moral obligation to help, serve, or benefit others, if necessary at the sacrifice of self interest
In 1954 Rand's close relationship with the much younger Nathaniel Branden turned into a romantic affair, with the consent of their spouses.
[51]
In 1964 Nathaniel Branden began an affair with the young actress Patrecia Scott, whom he later married. Nathaniel and Barbara Branden kept the affair hidden from Rand. When she learned of it in 1968, though her romantic relationship with Branden had already ended,[73] Rand terminated her relationship with both Brandens, which led to the closure of NBI.[74] Rand published an article in The Objectivist repudiating Nathaniel Branden for dishonesty and other "irrational behavior in his private life."


Why did Rand publish an article?
repudiating Nathaniel Branden for dishonesty and other "irrational behavior in his private life."

Rand preaches egotism “the principle that an action is rational if and only if it maximizes one's self-interest”, but when she has to live her philosophy she gets all upset.
If Rand was in power in government she probably would have taxed Branden and put regulations on him.

Rand did not practice what she preached


Reply by LordBT
There is a movie available right now on pay-per-view called Atlas Shrugged. Rather than draw your knowledge of Rand from Wiki, why dont you drop the $4.99, watch the movie and come back here and tell me what you think. I am genuinely interested in what a person who has not read the book thinks of the movie. If you are a fan of older movies, pick up a copy of The Fountainhead starring Gary Cooper and Patricia Neal. The movies are no substitute for the books, but they blow away Wiki.


Lordbt
Let me get this straight.
You want me to get a movie made by Hollywood based on a make believe novel to get factual information on Rand rather than an encyclopedia? No thank you, Hollywood and fictional novels are not my choice for knowledge.

For my entertainment I may get the movies but for facts and knowlegde I would rather go with an encyclopedia (Wikipedia) even if it is not the best encyclopedia it beats Hollywood and fcitional novels.
 
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SonOfTheWest

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The recent fondness for Ayn Rand by self-identified conservative Christians troubles me as well, and it is especially nonsensical considering Rand's support of abortion, which makes me question the sincerity of their pro-life views (and it is probably no wonder that the Christian Right has ended up on the losing side of the culture wars despite the political power they've had for the much the past three decades---they never really believed in the fight in the first place).

On the other hand, I think it's unfair how criticism of Rand and Objectivism is also used to attack libertarians as not all libertarians of Rand adherents.
Also, as unpleasant as Rand's worldview was/is, it didn't entirely start with her. Many of the Gilded Age robber barons had views which weren't much different than Rand's and they still considered themselves devout Christians.

I doubt her opinion on abortion has any appreciable impact on perceptions of her other views. The ideas behind her worldview always sounded well...stupid to me. It always struck me like many ideas on communism and other views that seem ultimately impractical and self defeating.
 
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rambot

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In Atlas Shrugged Ms Rand makes a clear and marked distinction between two key groups of people in the world - between those who make the world work, and those who like parasites feed off the energy, vitality, creativity, and productivity of the former. The one she calls the prime movers, the other she correctly identifies as looters.
.
K but that world doesn't work like that. We're you suggesting that is actually an apt metaphor?
 
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EdwinWillers

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EW said:
n Atlas Shrugged Ms Rand makes a clear and marked distinction between two key groups of people in the world - between those who make the world work, and those who like parasites feed off the energy, vitality, creativity, and productivity of the former. The one she calls the prime movers, the other she correctly identifies as looters. Eddie Willers is a key character in the first group; not someone with the talent or drive of a Dagny or Reardon, but someone who shares their values and is totally loyal to them to the end.
K but that world doesn't work like that. We're you suggesting that is actually an apt metaphor?
How do you mean?
 
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EdwinWillers

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lordbt

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Lordbt
Let me get this straight.
You want me to get a movie made by Hollywood based on a make believe novel to get factual information on Rand rather than an encyclopedia?
Yes. She put her philosophy down in the form of two fiction novels. Now, obviously, the best way to grasp what she believed would be to actually read those novels. Watching the movies is no substitute for that, but they will give you a sense of understanding that you wont get from encyclopedias or out of context quotations.
 
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tulc

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Christians (as will everyone else in the world) like what they like and just like everyone else does we tend to create reasons why afterwards. :wave: And like a lot of other people we will defend those reasons against any actual (or merely perceived) attacks. :wave:
tulc(HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE!!) ;)
 
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EdwinWillers

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Christians (as will everyone else in the world) like what they like and just like everyone else does we tend to create reasons why afterwards. :wave: And like a lot of other people we will defend those reasons against any actual (or merely perceived) attacks. :wave:
tulc(HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE!!) ;)
Well that's profound.... ly cynical.

Let me get this straight... if someone likes something - it's purely causeless so we have to fabricate a reason why?

Now I would've thought the reason always existed - which is why the thing appreciated is in fact appreciated in the first place.

Meh - too deep for Turkey Day.

Happy Thanksgiving to all as well... :wave:
 
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Gawron

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Christians (as will everyone else in the world) like what they like and just like everyone else does we tend to create reasons why afterwards.

I disagree as well. I could not have known that I would like Rynd's work until I read it. I liked her work because of what I found within, which is something I decided along the way and not afterward.
 
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Umaro

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Well that's profound.... ly cynical.

Let me get this straight... if someone likes something - it's purely causeless so we have to fabricate a reason why?

Now I would've thought the reason always existed - which is why the thing appreciated is in fact appreciated in the first place.

Introspection Illusion « You Are Not So Smart

It's due to another short circuit the human mind has. Tulc is right.
 
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EdwinWillers

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Introspection Illusion « You Are Not So Smart

It's due to another short circuit the human mind has. Tulc is right.
SOURCES:

Haigh, E. A. P., & Fresco, D. M. (n.d.). Relationship of depressive rumination and distraction to subsequent depressive symptoms following successful antidepressant medication therapy for depression. Retrieved December 2010 from http://www.personal.kent.edu/~dfresco/Fresco_Papers/AABT_05_Rum_Haigh.pdf.

Wilson T. D., Dunn D. S., Kraft D., & Lisle D. J. (1989). Introspection, attitude change, and attitude-behavior consistency: The disruptive effects of explaining why we feel the way we do. Advances in Experimental Social Psychology 287–343
.
Wilson, T. D., & Schooler, J. W. (1991, February). Thinking too much: Introspection can reduce the quality of preferences and decisions. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology 60, 181–192.
In other words - socialist quackery.
 
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