Why are highly educated and trained professionals refusing to vaccinate?

[rambot]

52 studies referenced here, if you're interested;
COMMENTARY: Masks-for-all for COVID-19 not based on sound data

1) this is a commentary; not peer reviewed.
2) I saw a disturbing amount of pretty darn old science being quoted here and very little specific to COVID.
3) Did you notice that EVEN WITH ALL OF THIS STUDY, the authors of this commentary STILL recommend wearing masks:

Despite the current limited scientific data detailing their effectiveness, we support the wearing of face coverings by the public when mandated and when in close contact with people whose infection status they don't know.....Cloth masks and face coverings likely do not offer the same degree of protection as physical distancing, isolation, or limiting personal contact time.

Now first, I'm sure you'd notice that they say face coverings "when mandated" and perhaps that might say that to maintain social order. HOWEVER, the second sentence, undercuts that notion as it says when you are in close contact with people whose infection status you don't know.


I don't think I've EVER heard anyone argue that masks are as effective as physical distancing, isolation or limiting contact time.

4) My post (189) has VERY few studies as old as MOST of the aforementioned research in your post.
5) Many of my studies refer specifically to the success of using masks with this PARTICULAR virus.
6) To be clear, I do NOT think masks are a panacea.

They are something that helps.

 

[probinson]

Respectfully, 'many' is always a relative word.

True, and it's apparent that you and I have different definitions of what constitutes "many" in this instance.

The numbers from FL and CA imply more than a hundred cases nationwide.

Wow. 100 cases nationwide! An average of 2 per state! Many!

And that's for people who called poison control. The actual number who took animal medicine is probably in the thousands.

Eh? How do you support that extrapolation? Must be using the "models" the "experts" have used throughout the pandemic.

That's many.

As you said, many is always relative. So if you want to convince yourself that an implication of 100 nationwide cases and your illogical leap to "thousands" is "many" in a country of 333 MILLION people, I suppose that's your prerogative.

 

[stevil]

Your first point is a good argument for vaccines. Stick with that.

Feel free to argue away for getting vaccinated. Perhaps you might convince someone. Just don't mandate it. It's none of your business.

My second point is a good point too.
Causation vs correlation. Just because some educated people don't want to get vaccinated it doesn't mean that they are following the evidence.

I never made any points about mandates.

 

[rambot]

If I believe I am right, why would I be judged. After all I am basing my belief on the science that tells me mask mandates don't really help.

But that science is weak and outdated. Again, masks are ONE TOOL; they are not meant to be a silver bullet. They HELP.

The other options is total isolation and no human interaction.

If they didn't help health professionals wouldn't wear them, hands down.

 

[probinson]

They fail to slow the spread of the disease.

OK. Then why mandate them?

 

[probinson]

Influenza is not covid.

Thanks. That was insightful.

Influenza spreads much more through surface contact than covid.

And yet we continue to sanitize the snot out of everything in sight, despite evidence that shows surface spread of COVID is low. Odd.

 

[rjs330]

This is my biggest problem with Christianity. There is zero moral accountability for Christians and here we have a Christian celebrating having no moral accountability. Flippantly cause pain and suffering of hundreds, rob people blind, and it’s all good. And then people in the religion have the audacity to expect me to give them the benefit of the doubt because they are a Christian. In my experience Christians are no better morally than anyone else and often worse because their religion gives them a “Get Out of Jail Free” card.

Moral accountibility is far too subjective. And we do answer to God for our failures to uphold the standards of Christ. But God is the final judge of our hearts and commitment to him and our faith in Christ.

There is nothing in scripture that addresses vaccines or masks. If we knew that by wearing a mask we absolutely would save our neighbors life, then we should do it. But we don't know that. And we also know there are other hazards to wearring a mask.

If we KNEW that taking a harmless vaccines WOULD save our neighbors life, then we should get one. BUT as has been proven, it does not. We are not required to deal with hypotheticals.

 

[Vylo]

If I believe I am right, why would I be judged. After all I am basing my belief on the science that tells me mask mandates don't really help.

Yeah, I mean it isn't like doctors and surgeons have worn them for ~100 years..........

 

[rambot]

OK. Then why mandate them?

Because they reduce the severity.
Because they help reduce the transmission.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2106757

Vaccination was associated with a reduction in both the number of cases and the number of Covid-19–related hospitalizations in health care workers between the unvaccinated period and the period beginning 14 days after the first dose.

This has been said many times.

 

[rambot]

52 studies referenced here, if you're interested;
COMMENTARY: Masks-for-all for COVID-19 not based on sound data

Thanks! I took a look

 

[Vylo]

Thanks. That was insightful.



And yet we continue to sanitize the snot out of everything in sight, despite evidence that shows surface spread of COVID is low. Odd.

Yeah, it isn't helping a huge amount, honestly, but it is better than nothing.

 

[rambot]

Thanks. That was insightful.



And yet we continue to sanitize the snot out of everything in sight, despite evidence that shows surface spread of COVID is low. Odd.

Where I am, that is dying down a fair bit. Not as much as I'd like but it is dying down.

 

[rjs330]

Yep, Christians can be the worst humans on the face of the earth and it doesn’t matter. It’s why the religion is attractive to psychopaths, narcissists, and charlatans. Say “Jesus is Lord” and continue about your devious ways.

Yet the Bible says that those who do that are not Christians. Now you are misrepresenting God's word. Shame on you.

 

[probinson]

1) this is a commentary; not peer reviewed.

You might find this interesting;
The Absurdity of Peer Review

2) I saw a disturbing amount of pretty darn old science being quoted here and very little specific to COVID.

It's odd that you'd be "disturbed" by historical studies. It's also odd that you'd think that we can learn nothing about mask efficacy if it's not specific to COVID. But, I guess I shouldn't be surprised. We threw all historical science out the window when the pandemic started and replaced it with THE SCIENCE™.

3) Did you notice that EVEN WITH ALL OF THIS STUDY, the authors of this commentary STILL recommend wearing masks:
Now first, I'm sure you'd notice that they say face coverings "when mandated" and perhaps that might say that to maintain social order. HOWEVER, the second sentence, undercuts that notion as it says when you are in close contact with people whose infection status you don't know.

Did you also notice this;

The authors and CIDRAP have received requests in recent weeks to remove this article from the CIDRAP website.​

They were pressured to delete this analysis. Because that's what THE SCIENCE™ does. Don't go along with the narrative? Censored! To CIDRAP's credit, they did not bow to the pressure.

I don't think I've EVER heard anyone argue that masks are as effective as physical distancing, isolation or limiting contact time.

Then I must conclude that you've been living in a hole for the last 18 months, because Dr. Robert Redfield, former Director of the CDC, said that face masks may be more effective than vaccines.

4) My post (189) has VERY few studies as old as MOST of the aforementioned research in your post.

It's odd that you think the age of the study is relevant. You think you'd be more interested in the quality of the evidence then whether the study was done last week or last decade.

5) Many of my studies refer specifically to the success of using masks with this PARTICULAR virus.

Can you point to one of those successes? And what I mean show real-world results that show masks have consistently kept the spread of the disease under control? Not just "studies" that cherry-pick time periods that suit their desired conclusions and/or reference faulty models or laboratory controlled mechanistic studies, but actual real-world results that show a correlation between mask usage and reduced spread.

 

[probinson]

The other options is total isolation and no human interaction.

This is sheer lunacy.

I honestly don't know where you people live, but I'm, glad I'm not there. Where I am, life is pretty darn normal. Mostly naked faces smiling as we pass in the stores, no one asking to see our papers when we dine out, just living life instead of living in constant paranoia of the "infection status" of those around us.

 

[rjs330]

Yeah, I mean it isn't like doctors and surgeons have worn them for ~100 years..........

I thought the subject was about masks and COVID? Let's not get into subjects that don't apply.

 

[pitabread]

just living life instead of living in constant paranoia of the "infection status" of those around us.

Except for the tens of thousands of dead people. They're not living in anything. :/

 

[probinson]

I recently saw a tweet that said this is the "new normal" for going to a party;

• Text an RSVP letting your host know you're coming with a copy of your vaccination card.
• Go get tested within 24 hours before the party and bring proof of a negative PCR test with you when you come to the party.
• Wear an N95 mask covered by a cloth mask and maintain 6 feet of distance while at the party.
• Get another test 48-72 hours after the party to confirm you are still negative.

There is nothing "normal" about this. Before the pandemic, we would have rightly classified this as paranoia. I genuinely feel sorry for people that allow this much worry and fear in their lives.

 

[renniks]

You may have that "madman" but he's never said anything as batpoop crazy as this.

I disagree. Trump isn't a great public speaker. Biden is just downright MIA. Hello? Anyone home? Like an echo chamber.

 

[pitabread]

I genuinely feel sorry for people that allow this much worry and fear in their lives.

Dead people don't have to worry.