Why are fundamentalist Christians so hated by most people?

frienden thalord

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Let us ponder this.............
Those who are CHRISTS have CRUCIFIED the flesh.
IF we walk after the SPIRIT , we wont fulfill the lust o the flesh.
IN CHRIST we do have the POWER to overcome sin.
AND if one does................Correct them fast...........restore such a one
or as james wrote long ago............Convert the sinner from his way
Brethren IF , any of you do SIN
Let Him know that who ever converts the sinner from the error of his way
has saved a soul from death.
IF we obey the SPIRITS warning when a temptation , lust from the flesh arises
and then get the thought out of our mind..............WE WONT act it out
BUT most don't realize.............we do IN CHRIST have that POWER to overcome the sin.
and if they don't know that, due to doctrines of men...............they will just
be powerless to overcome it.
FOR MAN cant................BUT all things in CHRIST are POSSIBLE ..
thus I will teach the TRUE POWER of the TRUE GOSPLE
and I will remind and do all to help those in any error........................
WE do have that POWER , IF our FAITH is TRULY IN HIM...
and I am NOT the only one who has experienced this...........
And yes...........before you ask...............sadly I have sinned
before.............BUT I repented of it..ceased it and was restored back.......
so I don't condmen any one.......I JUST TEACH the TRUE POWER of the TRUE gospel
in which we do have a GREAT HIGH PREIST ...............CHRIST
who has been tempted in all points, YET NEVER SINNED, HE OVERCAME
THUS we must by FIATH IN HIM do so...
For he is able to SUCCOR , give aide in every temptation that we do find a way OUT of it
YES................HE IS OUR STRENGHT.
 
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DeaconDean

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But when you call 'fundamentalism' to a fundamentalist, like EmmaCat, and are describing Jim Jones, et al, you do just that, whether you mean it or not.

Here is my posts which contain references to Jim Jones:

DeaconDean said:
But its like I said: "Jim Jones was right about one thing: "Those who don't learn from the past, are doomed to repeat it.""

Link

DeaconDean said:
1) I never said Jim Jones was a Fundamentalist!

I could care less if Winston Churchill, or George Santana, Edmund Burke, or Charlie Brown.

Like I said, whether it Jim Jones or whomever, the quote was correct in what it taught.

Link

So where in these two posts did I say Jim Jones was a Fundamentalist?

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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Any idea on who deceives the most pastors/priests on earth ? (it is written in Revelation after chapter 17 somewhere) (and it's not permitted to say who it is on this forum) (so pm)

I do know that as of about AD 70-90, that John wrote there were already a bunch of these "antichrists" around. (cf. 1 Jn. 2:18)

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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tada , that's a good answer for tonight....

Trust me, I know where that could lead, and I'm not wanting to go down that avenue.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Root of Jesse

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First of all we can ask the very serious question Did Jesus actually say this or are these the words of the evangelist writing as much as six decades later?" Secondly, the remark could be very well interpreted as being quite facetious and a sort of a put down to Peter.
Ah, someone who believes the Gospels aren't the words of Christ...smh. Next you'll be telling us that Jesus didn't multiply the loaves and fishes and feed the 5000 on the mountain, that he inspired them all to share what they had with others after three days of preaching...
 
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Root of Jesse

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The Greek word for "catholic" is "katholkos" meaning "general, universal".

The New Analytical Greek Lexicon, Wesley J. Perschbacher, Hendrickson Publishing Company, Peabody, Mass, 01962, Copyright 1990, "katholikos", p. 215

There are no scripture references to this word at all in the New Testament. It does however, appear in the titles for certain books of the bible. However, book titles like "The General Epistle to Titus" is a man-made title and do not appear in any Greek manuscript.

And to the best of my knowledge, the only reference to that word is found in only two writings around the first century:

Flavius Josephus, The Wars of the Jews:

"book 1, section 651: ... to the other places in Josephus, before he became a catholic Christian, which concern the same matters. Of the War,"

Flavius Josephus, Against Apion:

"book 2, section 157: ... ; nor even all of them among the laws of catholic Christianity themselves. I desire, therefore, the learned reader to"

And:

Pliny the Elder, The Natural History:

"book 3, chapter 9: ... streets, which are still to be seen in many Roman Catholic countries at the present day. under the guardianship"

Link
Who cares if someone used a Greek word when he spoke primarily Aramaic? The point is that if there is only one of anything, then it is universal. Christ's one Church which he instituted was mean for the universe.
Then the Apostles strayed from His teaching or instructions.

And it is verified in Acts 15. Not less than 7 years perhaps, when the First Apostolic Council met, we see two different "denominations" (if you will) coming out of that meeting.
Actually, what that passage shows is that there was a question, a debate, and an answer. There's nothing written about those who were on the other side of the ruling. The Church headed by the apostles (headed by Peter and guided by the Holy Spirit) determined what was meant.
Never once did I say Jim Jones was a "Fundamentalist"!

I issue the same challenge to you. Produce for me that post where I did.

The Jim Jones matter came up when I mentioned the sign that hung over his chair.

I quoted from it, and she took me to task saying it was Winston Churchill that said it.

So I say please get your facts straight.

God Bless

Till all are one.
Based on the title of the thread, in that context, your quotation of Jones is connotated as that he was a Fundamentalist, and I can see where it could be taken as such. If you didn't mean it that way, so be it.
 
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DeaconDean

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Actually, what that passage shows is that there was a question, a debate, and an answer. There's nothing written about those who were on the other side of the ruling. The Church headed by the apostles (headed by Peter and guided by the Holy Spirit) determined what was meant.

You know, that's funny.

In the Acts 15 passage, yes Peter is the first to speak, but it is James' proclamation that Paul and Barnabus went out with.

I submit:

"there is no indication that Peter was the head of the early church. When the first council was held at Jerusalem, Peter played only an introductory role (Acts 15:6–11). James seems to have a more significant position, summing up the conference and making the final pronouncement (cf. Acts 15:13–21)."

Source

"What does the Bible reveal about Peter's role in the early Church? Peter is placed first in lists of the twelve apostles (Matthew 10:1–4; Luke 6:13–16). He was often the spokesman for the group (Matthew 16:13–16), and he gave the first sermon on Pentecost (Acts 2). Peter, along with James and John, was one of three pillars in the Jerusalem Church (Galatians 2:9). Peter, Paul and Barnabas made observations about doctrine at a conference in Jerusalem, but James—not Peter—chaired the conference and rendered the final decision (Acts 15). Peter was the apostle to the Jews, and Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles—but neither one is listed as above the other (Galatians 2:7). Paul even corrected Peter (Galatians 2:11–14). Peter refused homage when it was offered (Acts 10:25–26); no one kissed his ring. The Bible reveals that Peter was a leader among the apostles, but he neither had nor claimed primacy over the others."

Source

So, you potato, I say potatoe.

Sorry, I just do not see it in the passage the way you want it to.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Root of Jesse

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You know, that's funny.

In the Acts 15 passage, yes Peter is the first to speak, but it is James' proclamation that Paul and Barnabus went out with.

I submit:

"there is no indication that Peter was the head of the early church. When the first council was held at Jerusalem, Peter played only an introductory role (Acts 15:6–11). James seems to have a more significant position, summing up the conference and making the final pronouncement (cf. Acts 15:13–21)."

Source

"What does the Bible reveal about Peter's role in the early Church? Peter is placed first in lists of the twelve apostles (Matthew 10:1–4; Luke 6:13–16). He was often the spokesman for the group (Matthew 16:13–16), and he gave the first sermon on Pentecost (Acts 2). Peter, along with James and John, was one of three pillars in the Jerusalem Church (Galatians 2:9). Peter, Paul and Barnabas made observations about doctrine at a conference in Jerusalem, but James—not Peter—chaired the conference and rendered the final decision (Acts 15). Peter was the apostle to the Jews, and Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles—but neither one is listed as above the other (Galatians 2:7). Paul even corrected Peter (Galatians 2:11–14). Peter refused homage when it was offered (Acts 10:25–26); no one kissed his ring. The Bible reveals that Peter was a leader among the apostles, but he neither had nor claimed primacy over the others."

Source

So, you potato, I say potatoe.

Sorry, I just do not see it in the passage the way you want it to.

God Bless

Till all are one.
The key words of your post are "I do not see."
 
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DeaconDean

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The key words of your post are "I do not see."

No, the key words are what do the scriptures say.

And in this case, they agree with me.

th


God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Root of Jesse

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No, the key words are what do the scriptures say.

And in this case, they agree with me.

th


God Bless

Till all are one.
Scripture SAYS that Peter led the Council of Jerusalem. You said you do not see that. But Scripture SAYS it. Then you quote a non-Scriptural interpretation, which is not infallible, and say that's what Scripture says. But no, that's what it says on a website.
 
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DeaconDean

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Scripture SAYS that Peter led the Council of Jerusalem. You said you do not see that. But Scripture SAYS it. Then you quote a non-Scriptural interpretation, which is not infallible, and say that's what Scripture says. But no, that's what it says on a website.

1) Please show me where in Acts 15 its says specifically that Peter led the church there.

2) Please show me where I said the sources I gave are "infallible".

I provided scripture that backs what I said that Peter was the first to speak. (cf. Acts 15:7-11)

Then I provided scripture to back my remarks that it was James' proclamation that the church wrote and followed. (cf Acts 15:22-29)

And then I provided outside sources to back up what I had already provided by scripture!

if you really really want to get purely technical, Acts 15 supports that no one person was technically "in charge". The matter for which the first Apostolic Council met was a "plurality of elders and apostles". (cf. Acts 15:3)

F. F. Bruce states:

"But the people who adopted this attitude did not see it that way; they thought

they were safeguarding the purity of the gospel. It says much for the wisdom of the leaders of
a church in which this viewpoint had many supporters that, when the Council of Jerusalem was convened to consider the terms of Gentile admission to the Christian fellowship, it was the ‘evangelical’ view that prevailed. The conditions stipulated in the apostolic decree Acts 15:28 f.) had to do, not with the basis of the gospel or the terms of church membership, but with the facilitating of social fellowship between Jewish and Gentile Christians. It is very probable that James’s moderating influence carried the verdict of many who tended to take a more legalist position. Indeed, with James’s hand on the helm during the next fifteen years or thereby the Jerusalem church was guided very wisely. But even with James in that position of leadership, there were thorough-going legalists in the Jerusalem church who tried to undo the spirit of the apostolic decree by going to the Gentile mission-field themselves and
imposing their viewpoint on the Gentile converts."

Source

Perhaps a few more references:

"...James eventually became the pre-eminent leader of the Jerusalem church. To borrow a contemporary term, he was its senior pastor."

-- James - The MacArthur New Testament Commentary, John F MacArthur, Chicago, IL: Moody Publishers, 1998, p. 11

"The brother of Jesus, who became the leader of the Jerusalem church (see on Gal. 1:19; 2:9, 12, Acts 15:3; 21:18) and was later considered its first bishop."

-- The People's New Testament Commentary, M. Eugene Boring, Fred B. Craddock, Louisville, KY: Westminster John Knox Press, 2009, p. 408

This James is the James who is the half-brother of Jesus. He is mentioned by name in Matthew 13:55; Mark 6:3; Acts 12:17; Acts 15:13; Acts 21:18; Galatians 1:19; Galatians 2:9, 12; James 1:1 and Jude 1:1. The scriptures cited by Boring and Craddock are those most frequently cited in defense of James as THE pastor of the church at Jerusalem, as well as Acts 12:17.

Furthermore, the Greek of Acts 15 shows that the declaration of James was what the elders and apostles agreed upon:

"διὸ ἐγὼ κρίνω μὴ παρενοχλεῖν τοῖς ἀπὸ τῶν ἐθνῶν ἐπιστρέφουσιν ἐπὶ τὸν θεόν," -Acts 15:19 (GNT)

"James' Judgement
The manner in which the decision was made was not one of consensus, but one in which James made a ruling:
Acts 15:19-20
[James speaking] "Therefore I have reached the decision that we should not trouble those Gentiles who are turning to God, but we should write to them to abstain only from things polluted by idols and from fornication and from whatever has been strangled and from blood."

Note the Greek word used by James here is krino, a legalistic term meaning "I decide", "I rule", "I judge" and not "I advise" or "I recommend".


  • James Decision as Final
    James decision was taken up verbatim by all present in the meeting. The letters to be sent to Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia simply repeated what James had ruled with no qualifications, additions or deletions.
Whatever else we can say about the historicity of Acts' account of the conference, we can confirm that the tradition available to Luke clearly placed James as the undisputed leader of the Jerusalem church."

Source

Even Eusebius agrees with me. (cf. History of the Church 3:5:2)

Nuff said.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Root of Jesse

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1) Please show me where in Acts 15 its says specifically that Peter led the church there.
Who spoke to the entire assembly in Acts 15:7-12? After that person spoke, the rest of the apostles listened to Paul and Barnabas speak of their successes in preaching to Gentiles. James concluded, summarizing Peter's speech, and suggesting that they all agree with Peter.
2) Please show me where I said the sources I gave are "infallible".

I provided scripture that backs what I said that Peter was the first to speak. (cf. Acts 15:7-11)

Then I provided scripture to back my remarks that it was James' proclamation that the church wrote and followed. (cf Acts 15:22-29)
Influenced by the speech of Peter, and the missionary work of Paul and Barnabas.
And then I provided outside sources to back up what I had already provided by scripture!

if you really really want to get purely technical, Acts 15 supports that no one person was technically "in charge". The matter for which the first Apostolic Council met was a "plurality of elders and apostles". (cf. Acts 15:3)

F. F. Bruce states:

"But the people who adopted this attitude did not see it that way; they thought

they were safeguarding the purity of the gospel. It says much for the wisdom of the leaders of
a church in which this viewpoint had many supporters that, when the Council of Jerusalem was convened to consider the terms of Gentile admission to the Christian fellowship, it was the ‘evangelical’ view that prevailed. The conditions stipulated in the apostolic decree Acts 15:28 f.) had to do, not with the basis of the gospel or the terms of church membership, but with the facilitating of social fellowship between Jewish and Gentile Christians. It is very probable that James’s moderating influence carried the verdict of many who tended to take a more legalist position. Indeed, with James’s hand on the helm during the next fifteen years or thereby the Jerusalem church was guided very wisely. But even with James in that position of leadership, there were thorough-going legalists in the Jerusalem church who tried to undo the spirit of the apostolic decree by going to the Gentile mission-field themselves and
imposing their viewpoint on the Gentile converts."

Source

Perhaps a few more references:

"...James eventually became the pre-eminent leader of the Jerusalem church. To borrow a contemporary term, he was its senior pastor."

-- James - The MacArthur New Testament Commentary, John F MacArthur, Chicago, IL: Moody Publishers, 1998, p. 11

"The brother of Jesus, who became the leader of the Jerusalem church (see on Gal. 1:19; 2:9, 12, Acts 15:3; 21:18) and was later considered its first bishop."

-- The People's New Testament Commentary, M. Eugene Boring, Fred B. Craddock, Louisville, KY: Westminster John Knox Press, 2009, p. 408

This James is the James who is the half-brother of Jesus. He is mentioned by name in Matthew 13:55; Mark 6:3; Acts 12:17; Acts 15:13; Acts 21:18; Galatians 1:19; Galatians 2:9, 12; James 1:1 and Jude 1:1. The scriptures cited by Boring and Craddock are those most frequently cited in defense of James as THE pastor of the church at Jerusalem, as well as Acts 12:17.

Furthermore, the Greek of Acts 15 shows that the declaration of James was what the elders and apostles agreed upon:

"διὸ ἐγὼ κρίνω μὴ παρενοχλεῖν τοῖς ἀπὸ τῶν ἐθνῶν ἐπιστρέφουσιν ἐπὶ τὸν θεόν," -Acts 15:19 (GNT)

"James' Judgement
The manner in which the decision was made was not one of consensus, but one in which James made a ruling:
Acts 15:19-20
[James speaking] "Therefore I have reached the decision that we should not trouble those Gentiles who are turning to God, but we should write to them to abstain only from things polluted by idols and from fornication and from whatever has been strangled and from blood."

Note the Greek word used by James here is krino, a legalistic term meaning "I decide", "I rule", "I judge" and not "I advise" or "I recommend".


  • James Decision as Final
    James decision was taken up verbatim by all present in the meeting. The letters to be sent to Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia simply repeated what James had ruled with no qualifications, additions or deletions.
Whatever else we can say about the historicity of Acts' account of the conference, we can confirm that the tradition available to Luke clearly placed James as the undisputed leader of the Jerusalem church."

Source

Even Eusebius agrees with me. (cf. History of the Church 3:5:2)

Nuff said.

God Bless

Till all are one.
Yeah, the only infallible is the Scripture, and the correct understanding of what it says.
 
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DeaconDean

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Who spoke to the entire assembly in Acts 15:7-12? After that person spoke, the rest of the apostles listened to Paul and Barnabas speak of their successes in preaching to Gentiles. James concluded, summarizing Peter's speech, and suggesting that they all agree with Peter.
Influenced by the speech of Peter, and the missionary work of Paul and Barnabas.
Yeah, the only infallible is the Scripture, and the correct understanding of what it says.

So, if I get up and speak before you in an assembly, somebody else speaks, then you, even if you re-iterate what I say, then I'm the head of that assembly.

Because that is what you are saying.

th


I also think that it is funny that the person that most say founded the "church" is also the person who not only directly disobeyed God three times, had the ministry to the Gentiles taken away from him, and was also guilty of being a hypocrite.

Oh well, like I said, you say potato, I say potatoe.

You say Peter, I say James.

But is is also true that James does further into detail than Peter, and it is his declarations that were written down.

And in reality, it really doesn't matter what I say does it? According to the Council of Trent, I should be accounted as "accursed".

After all, I know Greek, so I can interpret for myself what the scriptures say. Which technically, according to Session IV, Concerning the Edition and use of the Sacred Books, Second Decree:

"no one, relying on his own skill, shall,--...presume to interpret the said sacred Scripture contrary to that sense which holy mother Church,--whose it is to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the holy Scriptures"

Unless I'm mistaken, the Canons of the Council of Trent are still active today.

But I shall not argue with you anymore on this. The primacy of Peter is not what Fundamentalists believe sir.

In fact, to see what Fundamentalists said, I submit:

"It is a Church which is dependent upon no ministers upon earth, however much it values those who preach the gospel to its members. The life of its members does not hang upon Church-membership, or baptism, or the Lord's Supper — although they highly value these things, when they are to be had. But it has only one Great Head — one Shepherd, one chief Bishop — and that is Jesus Christ. He alone, by His Spirit, admits the members of this Church, though ministers may show the door. Till He opens the door no man on earth can open it —neither bishops, nor presbyters, nor convocations, nor synods. Once let a man repent and believe the gospel, and that moment he becomes a member of this Church. Like the penitent thief, he may have no opportunity of being baptized; but he has that which is far better than any water-baptism — the baptism of the Spirit. He may not be able to receive the bread and wine in the Lord's Supper; but he eats Christ's body and drinks Christ's blood by faith every day he lives, and no minister on earth can prevent him. He may be excommunicated by ordained men, and cut off from the outward ordinances of the professing Church; but all the ordained men in the world cannot shut him out of the true Church.

It is a Church whose existence does not depend on forms, ceremonies, cathedrals, churches, chapels, pulpits, fonts, vestments, organs, endowments, money, kings, governments, magistrates or any act of favor whatsoever from the hand of man. It has often lived on and continued when all these things have been taken from it. It has often been driven into the wilderness, or into dens and caves of the earth, by those who ought to have been its friends. Its existence depends on nothing but the presence of Christ and His Spirit; and they being ever with it, the Church cannot die."

The True Church, By: J. C. Ryle; The Fundamentals, A Testimony to the Truth, Volume IX

Sorry, I will respect your right to believe how your conscious dictates, but I cannot accept it, not here in this area, and not in my Baptist, Fundamentalist, Calvinist convictions.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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? What is the difference ? in
this:
After all, I know Greek, so I can interpret for myself what the scriptures say.
and this:
my Baptist, Fundamentalist, Calvinist convictions.
and this:
" Then opened HE their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,"
 
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Root of Jesse

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So, if I get up and speak before you in an assembly, somebody else speaks, then you, even if you re-iterate what I say, then I'm the head of that assembly.

Because that is what you are saying.

th
IT depends on who was appointed head of that assembly.
I also think that it is funny that the person that most say founded the "church" is also the person who not only directly disobeyed God three times, had the ministry to the Gentiles taken away from him, and was also guilty of being a hypocrite.
Well, nobody claims that Peter founded the "church". Christ founded the "church" and appointed Peter as its head. The fact that Peter was human and a sinner, just like all other humans makes no difference.
Oh well, like I said, you say potato, I say potatoe.

You say Peter, I say James.

But is is also true that James does further into detail than Peter, and it is his declarations that were written down.
It was the decision of the Council that were written down. Peter, the head, approved of it.
And in reality, it really doesn't matter what I say does it? According to the Council of Trent, I should be accounted as "accursed".

After all, I know Greek, so I can interpret for myself what the scriptures say. Which technically, according to Session IV, Concerning the Edition and use of the Sacred Books, Second Decree:

"no one, relying on his own skill, shall,--...presume to interpret the said sacred Scripture contrary to that sense which holy mother Church,--whose it is to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the holy Scriptures"
I'll leave that to God. But it is Holy Mother Church who was given authority to interpret Scripture.
Unless I'm mistaken, the Canons of the Council of Trent are still active today.

But I shall not argue with you anymore on this. The primacy of Peter is not what Fundamentalists believe sir.
I'm a fundamentalist Catholic. You don't speak for all Fundamentalists...
In fact, to see what Fundamentalists said, I submit:

"It is a Church which is dependent upon no ministers upon earth, however much it values those who preach the gospel to its members. The life of its members does not hang upon Church-membership, or baptism, or the Lord's Supper — although they highly value these things, when they are to be had. But it has only one Great Head — one Shepherd, one chief Bishop — and that is Jesus Christ. He alone, by His Spirit, admits the members of this Church, though ministers may show the door. Till He opens the door no man on earth can open it —neither bishops, nor presbyters, nor convocations, nor synods. Once let a man repent and believe the gospel, and that moment he becomes a member of this Church. Like the penitent thief, he may have no opportunity of being baptized; but he has that which is far better than any water-baptism — the baptism of the Spirit. He may not be able to receive the bread and wine in the Lord's Supper; but he eats Christ's body and drinks Christ's blood by faith every day he lives, and no minister on earth can prevent him. He may be excommunicated by ordained men, and cut off from the outward ordinances of the professing Church; but all the ordained men in the world cannot shut him out of the true Church.

It is a Church whose existence does not depend on forms, ceremonies, cathedrals, churches, chapels, pulpits, fonts, vestments, organs, endowments, money, kings, governments, magistrates or any act of favor whatsoever from the hand of man. It has often lived on and continued when all these things have been taken from it. It has often been driven into the wilderness, or into dens and caves of the earth, by those who ought to have been its friends. Its existence depends on nothing but the presence of Christ and His Spirit; and they being ever with it, the Church cannot die."

The True Church, By: J. C. Ryle; The Fundamentals, A Testimony to the Truth, Volume IX

Sorry, I will respect your right to believe how your conscious dictates, but I cannot accept it, not here in this area, and not in my Baptist, Fundamentalist, Calvinist convictions.

God Bless

Till all are one.
And yet, denominationalism is nowhere in the Bible...
 
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DeaconDean

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? What is the difference ? in
this:

Point is, I don't have to rely on a committee in Rome, or a person sitting in Rome to tell me what scripture means.

I can translate it myself.

And, as a Baptist, a Fundamentalist, a Calvinist, I do not accept the primacy of Peter.

?and this:
" Then opened HE their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,"

The difference is, does Jesus open our understanding now or is it the Holy Spirit?

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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IT depends on who was appointed head of that assembly.Well, nobody claims that Peter founded the "church". Christ founded the "church" and appointed Peter as its head. The fact that Peter was human and a sinner, just like all other humans makes no difference.It was the decision of the Council that were written down. Peter, the head, approved of it.I'll leave that to God. But it is Holy Mother Church who was given authority to interpret Scripture.I'm a fundamentalist Catholic. You don't speak for all Fundamentalists...
And yet, denominationalism is nowhere in the Bible...


Nothing of what you said can be proven.

And yet, again, in Acts 15 we do see "denominationalism" forming.

One group comprised of Christian Jews who observed some of the Torah.

And one group of Gentile Christians who only we required to observe two perhaps three things from the Torah.

"III. The Conflict Concerning the Law

b. The Primitive Community


The conflict concerning the Law and its relevance to Christians then and now. There is no clear cut definitive picture of just what the understanding of the Law was in the primitive community. But it is a certainty that they did in fact keep the Law, but as to the extent of the keeping of the Law it is not certain from the account in Acts because no distinctive can be discerned in this record. So what we can do, however, is to look at what records we do have concerning the conflict which are found in the book of Galatians and in Acts 15.

The question of the Law first became an issue when the Apostles began their missionary journeys. When they moved out to the Gentile world, more specifically the Gentile nations, there was so much conflict that the first Apostolic Council is recorded. With regards to this meeting, and the decision they came to, we can work best work out what the fundamental understanding of the Law was in the primitive community.

A problem that had existed from the Day of Pentecost was how to integrate Gentile believers into the church. Apparently, Paul taught his Gentile converts that they did not need to submit to the Law in order to be members in good standing, a point which not all agreed on. Paul's first missionary journey took him from Jerusalem to Antioch to Galatia and back to Jerusalem which led to the first Apostolic Council meeting. AS in Paul's day, there were a group of people who are commonly called legalists. Of whom believed that not only was a belief in God required, but also a strict observance to the Law of Moses was required.

According to Gal. 2, the data relevant to the council are as follows: first, agreement between Paul's gospel and that preached by the primitive community is confirmed and not just established. Gal. 2:2: aneqemhn autoiV to euaggelion o khrussw en toiV eqnesin (I put before them the gospel which I proclaim in the nations) Vs.6: emoi oi dokounteV ouden prosaneqento (to me, for those conferred nothing) Note in the KJV, the translators added the word important thus the italics, to emphasize Paul was referring to the Apostolic council.

The second point is equally certain, namely, that practical questions over and above the unanimity of principle was not so fully cleared up as to make impossible the dispute at Antioch as Paul describes it in Galatians 2. To understand this passage it should be noted that neither directly nor indirectly does Paul have any word of censure from James. The concrete question is whether and how far those born Jew may live together in fellowship with Gentile Christians who do not keep the Law. In particular, can they have fellowship with them at table and in the Lord's Supper? For if they do, they necessarily surrender essential parts of the strict observance of the Law. The measure of clarity reached thus far was simply that purely Gentile Christian churches were free from the Law with the consent of the primitive community, and purely Jewish Christian churches should keep the Law with the consent of Paul.

The findings of the Apostolic Council, then, are that the Law is not to be kept as though one could be righteous by its observance, that faith in Jesus brings salvation to both Jew and Gentile alike, and that the Law is still binding on Jews. On this basis, it seems that the separation of Gentile and Jewish evangelization (Gal. 2:7) had to be accepted by both Paul and the primitive as necessary and appropriate.

c. But this raises the question of why Jewish Christians were obliged to keep the Law. The main reason is concern for the possibility of the Jewish mission. The preaching of Jesus as the Christ of scripture could not be believed by Jews if His followers left the Law of God. That Paul could agree with this view is shown beyond any question in 1 Cor. 9:20. He neither demands nor makes any demonstration of his freedom from the Law which might consist in transgression of the Law.

d. From the basic and practical decision of the primitive community in these matters we may work out its understanding of the Law during the preceding period. The actual commitment to the Law was not monism in the sense that fulfillment of the Law w regarded as a presupposition of belonging to the Messianic kingdom. On the contrary, it regarded observance of the Law as the obedience concretely required of it as this people - an obedience which it had also to render for loves sake in the service of the Gospel. What constituted the community and separated it from others, however, was not a specific understanding of the Law but faith in Jesus as Lord and Christ. Historically speaking, it is probable that the Synoptic accounts of Jesus’ attitude to the Law are correct and that fundamentally the primitive community took its attitude to the Law from Jesus Himself.

e. Further developments in the primitive community is also to be understood in light of the conflicts, motives, and decisions brought to light in the first Apostolic Council and the events relating to it. The radical party, traditionally called the Judaizers, insisted that in spite of the councils decision, circumcision and the Law must be laid on Gentile Christians, since otherwise they could not enjoy salvation or belong to the community of Christ. They evidently propagated this view with zeal, especially in the Pauline churches, though it is open to question whether the situation presupposed in Rome can be explained by Judaising propaganda.

f. Distinct from the position of the Judaizers is that of James, Peter, and the community controlled by them, who seem to have kept essentially to the lines laid down by the Apostolic Council. This certainly corresponds to the depiction of James in Acts 21:148, and it is confirmed by the account of his death in Josephus.
[*] In regards to Peter, it is best to assume that he returned to the position of the Apostolic Council and James after accepting the view of Paul for a period in Antioch. Certainly the attempt to make Peter a champion of the Judaizers lacks enough exegetical support in the available sources and it suffers from intrinsic improbability.

As concerning the understanding of the Law in normative circles of primitive Christianity, it may thus be said that they regarded the Law as the obedience to be rendered by Jewish Christians. They were also conscious of being under this obligation for the sake of winning the Jewish world for the Gospel. They did not believe that by achieving this obedience man could attain to righteousness before God. They were prepared to extend brotherly fellowship to Gentile Christians even though the latter did not keep the Law. In mixed congregations, Gentile Christians were obliged to observe such points as would make fellowship of Jewish Christians with them defensible in the eyes of the Jewish world.


[*]
Josephus, Ant., 20, 200"

The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Gerhard Kittle, Editor, Jefforey W. Bromiley, Translator, Hendrickson Publishing Company, Grand Raips, Mi., 1962, Volume V, Nomos, pp. 1062-1063

Sorry friend, but none of what you espouse can be proven definitively.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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