Why are "cutters" and anorexics considered "sick"...

[A. believer]

while Catholic saints who self-mutilated and starved themselves (such as John of the Cross or Catherine of Sienna) considered holy? It strikes me as supremely ironic to see Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox people counselling troubled young people to get help and "love yourself more" and such when they come to these forums struggling with these devastating inclinations while extolling the virtues of ancient self-abusers on other threads.

I expect people to draw a distinction between the two cases by pointing out the self-centeredness of contemporary self-mutilators as opposed to the God-centeredness of the ancients. But then, why does it seem like the goal of counselling these people is to get them to love themselves more, with the implication that their behavior is a symptom of self-hatred, rather than too much self-love? And why should we even desire that they stop the behavior? Why isn't their ability to self-inflict suffering an admirable quality and something that, rightly focused, should help them in their spiritual journey? Why shouldn't the goal be for them to become more God-centered and prayerful while they continue to destroy their bodies?

This is something I've thought of quite a few times, but never asked until now.

 

[vanshan]

The Orthodox Church doesn't encourage anyone inflicting pain upon themselves (i.e. flagellation) such as we have seen periodically in the Roman Catholic religion. We do not beat ourselves with whips or any of those types of behaviors. We may fast, abstain from sleep, and even stand in prayer for days, as some saints have done, but this is very different than beating ourselves just to feel pain.

We fast, according to Christ's command, to subdue the passions which war against us. This is much different than the reasons "cutters" or "aneorexia" sufferers do what they do. Their motives are vain, such as to get attention or because they are obsessively concerned with their appearance, to the degree that it becomes a serious psychological issue. For you to liken the holy pursuit of buffetting our bodies with serious mental disorders, which we should pity and whose victims we should seek to comfort is inaccurate.

Basil

 

[vanshan]

I"ll also add that the saints often do strange things, but they are raised up by God, not man, to be honored for their incredible faith. One Orthodox saint, St. Symeon the Stylite, built a large platform or tower, which he climbed up to pray. He stood in prayer so long, that it is reported he began to have sores form on his knees. In fact, they say even flies laid eggs in his wounds and maggots feasted on his flesh. This is bizarre by anyones judgement, but he was driven, not by vanity, a desire for fame, or any other impure motive, but by a burning desire to serve Christ and turn away from all vanity in this life. To test his humility and reason for climbing upon his platform, a Church hierarch went to him to command he come down. Showing his humility, he immediately began to descend from the platform. When everyone saw this they were amazed and begged him to remain up there, according to his desire, seeing that he wasn't motivated by pride or a desire to attention.

Basil

 

[rosewaning]

You (and most people) have very little understanding about the nature of eating disorders. It isn't self-centered. Its about control. People who are anorexic/bulimic/self-mutilators don't harm themselves to become thin, or to get attention. They do it because they feel (consciously or subconsciously) that they have lost control over their lives. It is usually triggered by a traumatic experience or physical violation. Rather than using more healthy coping mechanisms, they go to an extreme. They don't inflict pain for the sake of inflicting pain, or for anything greater than themselves, they do it to mask the real pain that they feel on a daily basis.

 

[A. believer]

The Orthodox Church doesn't encourage anyone inflicting pain upon themselves (i.e. flagellation) such as we have seen periodically in the Roman Catholic religion. We do not beat ourselves with whips or any of those types of behaviors. We may fast, abstain from sleep, and even stand in prayer for days, as some saints have done, but this is very different than beating ourselves just to feel pain.

We fast, according to Christ's command, to subdue the passions which war against us. This is much different than the reasons "cutters" or "aneorexia" sufferers do what they do. Their motives are vain, such as to get attention or because they are obsessively concerned with their appearance, to the degree that it becomes a serious psychological issue. For you to liken the holy pursuit of buffetting our bodies with serious mental disorders, which we should pity and whose victims we should seek to comfort is inaccurate.

Basil

Your response sounds pretty much like what I anticipated and addressed--the difference in motives. I would appreciate if you would interact with my response to your anticipated objection which was covered in the OP.

Also, I understand the value of subduing our flesh through fasting, etc., but I would make a distinction between deliberately inflicting lasting harm on the body and just producing temporary discomfort while devoting oneself to prayer. Many of the ancient "holy men" (and women) who are so admired carried their deprivations and harsh treatment of the body to such extremes.

 

[QuantaCura]

I would say also that bulemia and anorexia are first and foremost symptoms of deeper unhealthy psychological issues, but also they greatly endanger the physical health of the person. The above saints never put their lives in danger. Also, people called to different vocations can handle different amounts. It's much easier for a contemplative to fast more stringently than someone who is active--or especially someone still growing like a teenager..

Personal mortification itself is Biblical:

1 Cor. 9:26 I therefore so run, not as at an uncertainty: I so fight, not as one beating the air: 27 But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.

 

[A. believer]

You (and most people) have very little understanding about the nature of eating disorders. It isn't self-centered. Its about control. People who are anorexic/bulimic/self-mutilators don't harm themselves to become thin, or to get attention. They do it because they feel (consciously or subconsciously) that they have lost control over their lives. It is usually triggered by a traumatic experience or physical violation. Rather than using more healthy coping mechanisms, they go to an extreme. They don't inflict pain for the sake of inflicting pain, or for anything greater than themselves, they do it to mask the real pain that they feel on a daily basis.

I don't want to sidetrack my thread by making it a debate on the motivation behind anorexia or "cutting," but I will say that your position doesn't do justice to the complexity of the issues or the complexity of human behavior in general. It's like the people who say things like, "rape isn't about sex, but about control." This response ignores the uniqueness of each individual case and it unnaturally compartmentalizes thought and behavior.

In regard to anorexia, it's undeniably so that a large number of cases (and I have no idea of the percentages, but I would expect it would be most) are not unrelated to the desire for bodily "perfection", which is also related to the issue of control.

 

[A. believer]

I would say also that bulemia and anorexia are first and foremost symptoms of deeper unhealthy psychological issues, but also they greatly endanger the physical health of the person. The above saints never put their lives in danger.

I would take issue with this statement. It's my understanding that Catherine of Sienna's death, for example, was directly related to her body being weakened by her repeated starvation. I've heard the same thing some about other capital S "Saints" whose name and particulars elude me at the moment.

 

[eoe]

I think it is the same difference between a martyr and a suicide.

The motivation behind the action is just as important as the action.

I am not at all for mortification but I do fast. I am not fasting because of my body image - I am fasting so that I can die to the world - the passions.
I love Christ and that love leads me to fast so that I can eliminate the passions that draw me away from him.
The bulemic hates thier body and fasts to alter it.

That is the difference.

A martyr dies because he loves something enough to give everything for it.
The suicide hates everything so much that they kill themselves just to get away from it.

 

[Starling]

A. Believer's original post is disgusting. People with anorexia experience deep emotional trauma and pain. Mutilators act out because they are miserable. My sisters have had both. They don't do this because they are cruel to others, or because they wish to collect advantages ini life with respect to others. I wish the OP could have kept her opinions about other people to herself.

 

[A. believer]

A. Believer's original post is disgusting. People with anorexia experience deep emotional trauma and pain. Mutilators act out because they are miserable. My sisters have had both. They don't do this because they are cruel to others, or because they wish to collect advantages ini life with respect to others. I wish the OP could have kept her opinions about other people to herself.

Actually, I did keep my opinions to myself, but since you brought it up, I certainly feel deep compassion toward people with these problems. I was mildly anorexic, myself, in my early teens, and I thank God that it didn't become more of a problem than it did. But this thread has nothing to do with any of that.

 

[holyorders]

while Catholic saints who self-mutilated and starved themselves (such as John of the Cross or Catherine of Sienna) considered holy? It strikes me as supremely ironic to see Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox people counselling troubled young people to get help and "love yourself more" and such when they come to these forums struggling with these devastating inclinations while extolling the virtues of ancient self-abusers on other threads.

I expect people to draw a distinction between the two cases by pointing out the self-centeredness of contemporary self-mutilators as opposed to the God-centeredness of the ancients. But then, why does it seem like the goal of counselling these people is to get them to love themselves more, with the implication that their behavior is a symptom of self-hatred, rather than too much self-love? And why should we even desire that they stop the behavior? Why isn't their ability to self-inflict suffering an admirable quality and something that, rightly focused, should help them in their spiritual journey? Why shouldn't the goal be for them to become more God-centered and prayerful while they continue to destroy their bodies?

This is something I've thought of quite a few times, but never asked until now.

You understand the faith with your mind too much. You should try to understand with your heart and your mind. Serious self-denial is a very holy practice, in older times it was overdone for love of God and became too unneccessary.


If everything has to be understood in human terms for you than how do you have any faith?

 

[A. believer]

I think it is the same difference between a martyr and a suicide.

The motivation behind the action is just as important as the action.

I am not at all for mortification but I do fast. I am not fasting because of my body image - I am fasting so that I can die to the world - the passions.
I love Christ and that love leads me to fast so that I can eliminate the passions that draw me away from him.
The bulemic hates thier body and fasts to alter it.

That is the difference.

A martyr dies because he loves something enough to give everything for it.
The suicide hates everything so much that they kill themselves just to get away from it.

Yes, I agree with that distinction, but I'm talking specifically about what I think you mean by mortification. As I said, I'm talking about people doing such things as starving themselves to death for the sake of "holiness."

 

[A. believer]

You understand the faith with your mind too much. You should try to understand with your heart and your mind. Serious self-denial is a very holy practice, in older times it was overdone for love of God and became too unneccessary.


If everything has to be understood in human terms for you than how do you have any faith?

The Bible tells me to love God with my mind as well as my heart. That doesn't mean that I expect to understand unsearchable mysteries. It does mean, among other things, exercising godly discernment. And I often find it difficult to distinguish between the mindset of RCs and EOs and the mindset of the Hindus and Jains. And I find that disturbing.

 

[holyorders]

The Bible tells me to love God with my mind as well as my heart. That doesn't mean that I expect to understand unsearchable mysteries. It does mean, among other things, exercising godly discernment. And I often find it difficult to distinguish between the mindset of RCs and EOs and the mindset of the Hindus and Jains. And I find that disturbing.

Its only disturbing to you because you have an expectation of the way the faith should be. We have to conform to the faith..... and not have the faith conform to us.

 

[A. believer]

Its only disturbing to you because you have an expectation of the way the faith should be. We have to conform to the faith..... and not have the faith conform to us.

Why do you think you're qualified to tell me why I find something disturbing? And from where I'm standing, it's you people who are conforming the revealed faith to your own personal view of how things should be. My faith is informed by Scripture, and yours often looks to me like the kind of "religion as usual" preached so strongly against in Scripture. I don't expect you to agree with me, but please don't just tell me I'm wrong because you say so.

 

[Warrior Poet]

I expect people to draw a distinction between the two cases by pointing out the self-centeredness of contemporary self-mutilators as opposed to the God-centeredness of the ancients.

But your expectation is drawn from what? There are obvious variables just by quickly searching their names in Google and reading for 2 minutes. Two individuals with individuals problems yet a similar way to "deal". Perhaps I don't understand. Your expectation was to high for me

But then, why does it seem like the goal of counselling these people is to get them to love themselves more, with the implication that their behavior is a symptom of self-hatred, rather than too much self-love?

Im sorry A. believer but as I continued to read you don't, at least up to this point, have any evidence that either the majority or all are taught and counseled this way... though I would assume that your assumption would be relevant at least to the process of "healing".

And why should we even desire that they stop the behavior?

I cant help but think that outside help is futile if this is driven by anything more then the "self". I also cant help but to find the term "deep psychological problem" rather interesting in describing the practices of self inflicted pain, as someone did.

In the midst of orthodoxy mainly, that would be a rather clinical term. The persons faith issues should be addressed first, so it seems.

These deep psychological problems are also sometimes confused as faith driven, as one post already described.

Around, around we go.

Why isn't their ability to self-inflict suffering an admirable quality and something that, rightly focused, should help them in their spiritual journey?

Why shouldn't the goal be for them to become more God-centered and prayerful while they continue to destroy their bodies?

I guess I would have to leave it up to the time they started the infliction to their conversion. If it was pre then IMO, its not admirable until the ability to stop and start is established.

Then again getting them to stop might help their spiritual journey as well... that is really not up to us to decide.

Again Ill say if it is driven by something other then self, then no outside help will stop it. This person is left doing "battle" on their own. Pain suffering and the whole kaboodle.

Warrior Poet

 

[A. believer]

But your expectation is drawn from what? There are obvious variables just by quickly searching their names in Google and reading for 2 minutes. Two individuals with individuals problems yet a similar way to "deal". Perhaps I don't understand. Your expectation was to high for me



Im sorry A. believer but as I continued to read you don't, at least up to this point, have any evidence that either the majority or all are taught and counseled this way... though I would assume that your assumption would be relevant at least to the process of "healing".




I cant help but think that outside help is futile if this is driven by anything more then the "self". I also cant help but to find the term "deep psychological problem" rather interesting in describing the practices of self inflicted pain, as someone did.

In the midst of orthodoxy mainly, that would be a rather clinical term. The persons faith issues should be addressed first, so it seems.

These deep psychological problems are also sometimes confused as faith driven, as one post already described.

Around, around we go.





I guess I would have to leave it up to the time they started the infliction to their conversion. If it was pre then IMO, its not admirable until the ability to stop and start is established.

Then again getting them to stop might help their spiritual journey as well... that is really not up to us to decide.

Again Ill say if it is driven by something other then self, then no outside help will stop it. This person is left doing "battle" on their own. Pain suffering and the whole kaboodle.

Warrior Poet

I'm sorry, but I don't understand your post. I don't have any idea what point you're trying to make.

 

[Warrior Poet]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand your post. I don't have any idea what point you're trying to make.

Could you be a tad more specific. There was no specific point trying to be made.

Warrior Poet

 

[catlover]

Its only disturbing to you because you have an expectation of the way the faith should be. We have to conform to the faith..... and not have the faith conform to us.

There is nothing in Christianity which says we are better off by wearing "hair shirts" or performing mutilations on our bodies.