Why and from what does Man Need to be Saved?

[jimmyjimmy]

Do you believe that the fall has left mankind in a spiritually dead state? If not, why not?

Below is a brief explanation of the doctrine of Total Depravity (i.e., Total Inability) use it to form your arguments, for or against, please.

Point 1: Total Depravity

This doctrine answers the question, “Why and from what does man need to be saved?” Total depravity is the biblical assertion that when man fell into sin in the Garden of Eden, the disastrous effects were total, meaning that they extended into every facet of creation and into every facet of man himself—mind, body, spirit and will. As a result, man in his natural state is now spiritually dead, is bound helplessly by the Devil and by sin, is incapable of comprehending the things of the Spirit of God, is corrupt in his very nature and is given over perpetually to sin in his thoughts, attitudes and behavior (Rom 5:12; Eph 2:1-3; 2 Tim 2:25; 1 Cor 2:14; Ps 51:5; Rom 6:15-23; 7:21-24; Gen 6:5).

As one who is spiritually dead, man is worthy only of eternal damnation (Rom 3:23), and because he is absolutely dead, he is completely unable even to open his eyes or to turn his head towards God—much less muster up faith, love or worship to him, just as a physically dead man is unable to open his eyes or to turn his head. For this reason, man must be brought back to life, “born again,” regenerated—he can in no way save himself, prepare himself for salvation, or cause himself to believe. This must be an act of Almighty God, the Creator of all things, he who raises the dead, the only one whose words make what is from what was not (Jer 13:23; Eph 2:4-10). Because of the extent to which our sin has completely incapacitated us, salvation must be truly of the Lord, from beginning to end (Ps 3:8; Jonah 2:9; Rev 7:10).

http://www.wrs.edu/Materials_for_Web_Site/Journals/16-1_Feb-2009/Dally--Calvinism_Defined.pdf​

 

[Abzibazabz]

Yeah this doctrine has always confused me. And hasn't always sat right with me, if man in his normal state is spiritually dead then basically all humans including you and me are on the road to Hell whether we know it or not and just going along our merry way like naive blind little lambs to the slaughter . I often struggle to interpret the entire meaning of "sin" beyond anything further than something that is detrimental to oneself and to others . The ones that aren't aware and haven't been called by Jesus will one day be facing eternal torment and I'm not sure they will even know why :/
I would say that I have definitely sinned as have many others but to say - we are all deserving of Hell, when we never picked our own destinies or controlled why we are this way; we just are because we were put here. Well it seems to be a harsh statement

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Yeah this doctrine has always confused me. And hasn't always sat right with me, if man in his normal state is spiritually dead then basically all humans including you and me are on the road to Hell whether we know it or not and just going along our merry way like naive blind little lambs to the slaughter . I often struggle to interpret the entire meaning of "sin" beyond anything further than something that is detrimental to oneself and to others . The ones that aren't aware and haven't been called by Jesus will one day be facing eternal torment and I'm not sure they will even know why :/
I would say that I have definitely sinned as have many others but to say - we are all deserving of Hell, when we never picked our own destinies or controlled why we are this way; we just are because we were put here. Well it seems to be a harsh statement

People will be judged because of their sin. There was only one innocent Lamb, every other person is guilty.

This is just one of many passages that describes the condition of fallen men:

Romans 1:18-32

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. (ESV)​

 

[Halbhh]

Do you believe that the fall has left mankind in a spiritually dead state? If not, why not?

Below is a brief explanation of the doctrine of Total Depravity (i.e., Total Inability) use it to form your arguments, for or against, please.

Point 1: Total Depravity

This doctrine answers the question, “Why and from what does man need to be saved?” Total depravity is the biblical assertion that when man fell into sin in the Garden of Eden, the disastrous effects were total, meaning that they extended into every facet of creation and into every facet of man himself—mind, body, spirit and will. As a result, man in his natural state is now spiritually dead, is bound helplessly by the Devil and by sin, is incapable of comprehending the things of the Spirit of God, is corrupt in his very nature and is given over perpetually to sin in his thoughts, attitudes and behavior (Rom 5:12; Eph 2:1-3; 2 Tim 2:25; 1 Cor 2:14; Ps 51:5; Rom 6:15-23; 7:21-24; Gen 6:5).

As one who is spiritually dead, man is worthy only of eternal damnation (Rom 3:23), and because he is absolutely dead, he is completely unable even to open his eyes or to turn his head towards God—much less muster up faith, love or worship to him, just as a physically dead man is unable to open his eyes or to turn his head. For this reason, man must be brought back to life, “born again,” regenerated—he can in no way save himself, prepare himself for salvation, or cause himself to believe. This must be an act of Almighty God, the Creator of all things, he who raises the dead, the only one whose words make what is from what was not (Jer 13:23; Eph 2:4-10). Because of the extent to which our sin has completely incapacitated us, salvation must be truly of the Lord, from beginning to end (Ps 3:8; Jonah 2:9; Rev 7:10).

http://www.wrs.edu/Materials_for_Web_Site/Journals/16-1_Feb-2009/Dally--Calvinism_Defined.pdf​

No. But humans are lost and sinful without Christ.

Our individual spirits exist because God made them (to be alive). Of course alive isn't 'dead', but can be lost in darkness.

Christ used the (true!) wording -- lost.

When Paul later writes "you were dead in your sins" he's using metaphor, but of course it doesn't trump or replace the wordings Christ used. Rather it's an elaboration of His words using a metaphor. We can indeed say "dead" if we know from dwelling in Christ's words that in reality "dead" is only metaphor, and only means lost.

Because of the light that has come into the world, the situation of Gen 6:5 can no longer happen in that way, as it did then -- that is, it's not possible for "all" ["continually" in KJV] and "every" and "only" to be evil, as then, for all mankind, because now many have His Words on their heart.

Addressing the larger question though, yes we are lost, in sin, heading towards the death that is the "second death" (of the spirit), until He saves us.

 

[EmSw]

Do you believe that the fall has left mankind in a spiritually dead state? If not, why not?

Below is a brief explanation of the doctrine of Total Depravity (i.e., Total Inability) use it to form your arguments, for or against, please.

Point 1: Total Depravity

This doctrine answers the question, “Why and from what does man need to be saved?” Total depravity is the biblical assertion that when man fell into sin in the Garden of Eden, the disastrous effects were total, meaning that they extended into every facet of creation and into every facet of man himself—mind, body, spirit and will. As a result, man in his natural state is now spiritually dead, is bound helplessly by the Devil and by sin, is incapable of comprehending the things of the Spirit of God, is corrupt in his very nature and is given over perpetually to sin in his thoughts, attitudes and behavior (Rom 5:12; Eph 2:1-3; 2 Tim 2:25; 1 Cor 2:14; Ps 51:5; Rom 6:15-23; 7:21-24; Gen 6:5).

As one who is spiritually dead, man is worthy only of eternal damnation (Rom 3:23), and because he is absolutely dead, he is completely unable even to open his eyes or to turn his head towards God—much less muster up faith, love or worship to him, just as a physically dead man is unable to open his eyes or to turn his head. For this reason, man must be brought back to life, “born again,” regenerated—he can in no way save himself, prepare himself for salvation, or cause himself to believe. This must be an act of Almighty God, the Creator of all things, he who raises the dead, the only one whose words make what is from what was not (Jer 13:23; Eph 2:4-10). Because of the extent to which our sin has completely incapacitated us, salvation must be truly of the Lord, from beginning to end (Ps 3:8; Jonah 2:9; Rev 7:10).

http://www.wrs.edu/Materials_for_Web_Site/Journals/16-1_Feb-2009/Dally--Calvinism_Defined.pdf​

I see you are still eating sour grapes. That may be the reason you think this way, who knows?

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Ezekiel says the soul who sins (active) shall die, not the soul who is born in sin (passive). Then he says the son (all of mankind) shall NOT bear the guilt of the father (Adam). The Reformed belief is that everyone is guilty because of Adam. They have made this doctrine of total depravity based upon everyone being guilty for Adam's sin.

Ezekiel would roll over in his grave if he heard these 'sour grape' teachings of the Reformed.

 

[bling]

Do you believe that the fall has left mankind in a spiritually dead state? If not, why not?

Below is a brief explanation of the doctrine of Total Depravity (i.e., Total Inability) use it to form your arguments, for or against, please.

Point 1: Total Depravity

This doctrine answers the question, “Why and from what does man need to be saved?” Total depravity is the biblical assertion that when man fell into sin in the Garden of Eden, the disastrous effects were total, meaning that they extended into every facet of creation and into every facet of man himself—mind, body, spirit and will. As a result, man in his natural state is now spiritually dead, is bound helplessly by the Devil and by sin, is incapable of comprehending the things of the Spirit of God, is corrupt in his very nature and is given over perpetually to sin in his thoughts, attitudes and behavior (Rom 5:12; Eph 2:1-3; 2 Tim 2:25; 1 Cor 2:14; Ps 51:5; Rom 6:15-23; 7:21-24; Gen 6:5).

As one who is spiritually dead, man is worthy only of eternal damnation (Rom 3:23), and because he is absolutely dead, he is completely unable even to open his eyes or to turn his head towards God—much less muster up faith, love or worship to him, just as a physically dead man is unable to open his eyes or to turn his head. For this reason, man must be brought back to life, “born again,” regenerated—he can in no way save himself, prepare himself for salvation, or cause himself to believe. This must be an act of Almighty God, the Creator of all things, he who raises the dead, the only one whose words make what is from what was not (Jer 13:23; Eph 2:4-10). Because of the extent to which our sin has completely incapacitated us, salvation must be truly of the Lord, from beginning to end (Ps 3:8; Jonah 2:9; Rev 7:10).

http://www.wrs.edu/Materials_for_Web_Site/Journals/16-1_Feb-2009/Dally--Calvinism_Defined.pdf​

We know knowledge of good and evil was gained from eating from the tree in the Garden, but is knowledge itself good or bad?

Do you equate added “knowledge” with sinful nature?

God being all powerful would allow God to keep man’s nature from being changed by what Adam and Eve did and to allow man to drop to some lower natural state would be unloving on God’s part so why did He do that?

All the “curses” and knowledge man received on leaving the Garden would help in man’s (including Adam and Eve) fulfillment of his earthly objective, but making man totally depraved makes no logical sense, so why would God do that?

Sin has purpose in helping the mature adult fulfill his earthly objective and with knowledge of good and evil all mature adults will eventually sin, so should we blame Adam and Eve?

Looking at the verses:

Romans 5:12 …death came to all people, because all sinned the reason given is not because Adam sinned, but all sinned.

Ephesians 2:1- …3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts.

We are slaves of the one we obey and all mature adults sin but this is not putting the blame on Adam and Eve?

2 Timothy 2:25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth

How could you “instruct” an opponent if he/she is totally depraved?

1 Corinthians 2:14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

We are not talking about accepting spiritual thing with understanding, but just giving up, wimping out and surrendering to the point of just being willing to humbly accept pure undeserved charity if it is available from God.

Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

This takes a lengthy explanation which others have done, but it appears to go back to the sin of his mother.

Romans 6:15-23…New when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

We are the ones offering ourselves to sin or obedience.

Romans 7:21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?

This goes back to Paul when he was sinful Saul and first learned about coveting (this could be like when he was 12). This whole section is written in the “Historic present tense” like most of Mark for the same reason (this takes lots of words to explain). What you can see is Saul was able to delight in the law while he was in his prior to salvation nature, so how could he do that?

Genesis 6:5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

Noah and family were not all wicked, so were they given special powers and if they were is that fair?

Jer 13:23; Eph 2:4-10 God can change people after they come to Him with Faith.

Ps 3:8; Jonah 2:9; Rev 7:10 I am not suggesting we save ourselves so I am in total agreement.

 

[Wordkeeper]

It seems that the gospel is the message that Christ became sin (took our sin) and put it to death on the cross, and this righteous act gave him the power to return to us his righteousness, so that we can enter heaven.


The parts, components that make up the teaching are:

Christ
Men
Righteousness
Sin
Imputing
Heaven
Hell

The outcomes vary, and are:

Men without righteousness go to hell.
Men exchange their sin for Christ's righteousness and go to heaven.


The Other View.

The Gospel teaches that Christ came so that what God willed would come into being, that creation would transform from fleshly to spiritual. Oftentimes the word spiritual is translated as without form and antithetical to material, however what is mostly meant is noble, in contrast to base, flesh.

Of course Adam had to start with subduing his own body. It makes no sense to buy a horse and watch him kick down all the fences and run away to satisfy all his own appetites. He needs to be subdued and harnessed so that he becomes productive. Unless a seed is buried it remains a seed and cannot have life. When Adam ignored God's warning, he became a sinner and could not stay in union with God, because only the pure can see God. Humanity became sinners because all became culpable. Whoever is born is born into Adam.

The solution is to be born into a new Humanity, a new Man, which is cleansed.

Jesus cleansed the old Humanity.

What is the Gospel.

The parts that make up this Gospel are:

Christ
Men
Humanity/Land/Rest
Babylon/Exile
Righteousness
Sin
Reclamation/subdue
Completion


The outcomes vary, and are:

Men without righteousness fail to reclaim humanity.
Men with righteousness subdue the Land and enter Rest.

The Gospel is that what Adam the first Son of God failed to do Jesus the second Son of God succeeded. It's a very common Jewish motif: the second choice succeeds where the first choice fails, Adam failed the second Adam did not, Esau failed Jacob did not, Saul failed David did not.

Luke 3:38
38the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

Acts 8:35-37
35Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. 36As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?” 37[And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Adam’s act caused all men to be born into the first Humanity. Christ's act caused all who are loyal to Christ to be born into the new Humanity.

The Shadow of Christ in the Law of Moses
by Vern Sheridan Poythress

Quote
We may return to the same conclusion that we reached before: the sacrifice of animals is inadequate to achieve final cleansing, nor can it cleanse anything more than the copies of heavenly things. Then who will bring the definitive sacrifice? A man must do it. A similar point is made indirectly in Num. 35:33-34: “Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it. Do not defile the land where you live and where I dwell, for I, the LORD, dwell among the Israelites.” When a man had shed blood, the man must die. But there is one exception, when the blood of the death of the high priest releases a manslaughterer to return home (Num. 35:25-28). The blood of the high priest has special value. In agreement with this principle, Zech. 3 uses all the symbolism of a defiled human high priest Joshua and then speaks mysteriously of the Branch in connection with which “I will remove the sin of this land in a single day” (Zech. 3:9).

Frame-Poythress.org


Going to heaven has nothing to do with being in Christ, the real Promised Land, the real rest, the Seed, in which all the world will be blessed.

Jesus taught the rich young ruler that if he wanted eternal life, he had to observe the law, but if he wanted to be completed (wrongly translated “perfect“), he had to turn away from serving mammon, to serving Him.

In summary we, and all of creation, are saved from futility, by the blood of the Lamb which was slain for the redemption of the world.

 

[he-man]

Do you believe that the fall has left mankind in a spiritually dead state? If not, why not?

Below is a brief explanation of the doctrine of Total Depravity (i.e., Total Inability) use it to form your arguments, for or against, please.

Point 1: Total Depravity

This doctrine answers the question, “Why and from what does man need to be saved?” Total depravity is the biblical assertion that when man fell into sin in the Garden of Eden, the disastrous effects were total, meaning that they extended into every facet of creation and into every facet of man himself—mind, body, spirit and will. As a result, man in his natural state is now spiritually dead, is bound helplessly by the Devil and by sin, is incapable of comprehending the things of the Spirit of God, is corrupt in his very nature and is given over perpetually to sin in his thoughts, attitudes and behavior (Rom 5:12; Eph 2:1-3; 2 Tim 2:25; 1 Cor 2:14; Ps 51:5; Rom 6:15-23; 7:21-24; Gen 6:5).

As one who is spiritually dead, man is worthy only of eternal damnation (Rom 3:23), and because he is absolutely dead, he is completely unable even to open his eyes or to turn his head towards God—much less muster up faith, love or worship to him, just as a physically dead man is unable to open his eyes or to turn his head. For this reason, man must be brought back to life, “born again,” regenerated—he can in no way save himself, prepare himself for salvation, or cause himself to believe. This must be an act of Almighty God, the Creator of all things, he who raises the dead, the only one whose words make what is from what was not (Jer 13:23; Eph 2:4-10). Because of the extent to which our sin has completely incapacitated us, salvation must be truly of the Lord, from beginning to end (Ps 3:8; Jonah 2:9; Rev 7:10).

http://www.wrs.edu/Materials_for_Web_Site/Journals/16-1_Feb-2009/Dally--Calvinism_Defined.pdf​

You must first be accepted by God and then seek and you will find, ask and you shall receive. Then it must be revealed to you by Jesus Christ before you can receive understanding.

 

[1213]

Why and from what does Man Need to be Saved?

Bible says:

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is useless. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
John 6:63


Truly, truly I tell you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death at all.”
John. 8:51

By the words Jesus declared you can be saved from the death that comes because of sin.

But do one really need to be saved, not if he doesn’t have sin, or if he doesn’t want to have eternal life.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

We know knowledge of good and evil was gained from eating from the tree in the Garden, but is knowledge itself good or bad?

Adam and Eve had knowledge of both good and evil prior to the Fall.

Do you equate added “knowledge” with sinful nature?

No.

 

[bling]

Adam and Eve had knowledge of both good and evil prior to the Fall.



No.

Adam and Eve had knowledge of right and wrong, but is that the same as good and evil?
It is wrong to play in the street, but is it evil?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Adam and Eve had knowledge of right and wrong, but is that the same as good and evil?
It is wrong to play in the street, but is it evil?

Semantics.

Think about is, would it be temping to know good and evil, or would it tempting to *determine* good and evil for yourself?

 

[Wordkeeper]

A very important verse is this:

Hebrews 4:8
For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.

What it conveys is that the Exodus event was a blueprint, not the real occurrence, or in Biblical jargon, a prophecy. Yes God promised to bring Israel into the Promised Land, it really happened, Israel did finally find shelter, protection and provision in Canaan, but it was also a type, a foreshadowing of a future incident, where bigger problems would be solved.

Simply put, the Exodus event was God prophesying a situation where men would be safe by entering a REST. This would constitute the Gospel, that that Rest had finally materialised and there remained something for believers to do, to enter that Rest.

Notice how theologians would describe the scenario:

Quote
The author targets the doctrine of “Pastor Eric,” who insists that “the gospel is not a call to imitate Jesus,” “not a public announcement that Jesus is Lord and King,” “not an invitation into the church,” and “does not involve a promise of the second coming” (p. 33). All this, according to Pastor Eric, is important theology but the gospel itself is the good news that Jesus died and rose again to save people from sin (pp. 32–33). While desiring to see a robust faith that leads to discipleship, Pastor Eric worries that “if he presses discipleship too hard, salvation by grace and by faith alone will be compromised.” “His gospel is a ‘salvation culture’ gospel instead of a ‘gospel culture’ gospel” (p. 33).

Attempting to correct this perspective, McKnight declares, “In this book we want to show that the gospel of Jesus and that of the apostles, both of which created a [holistic] gospel culture and not simply a [decision-oriented] salvation culture, was a gospel that carried with it the power, the capacity, and the requirement to summon people who wanted to be . . . the Discipled” (p. 33). Thus the true “good news,” the author affirms, must be understood within the greater story of the Bible because “without that story there is no gospel” (p. 36). For McKnight, the story of Israel is “completed” by the story of Jesus as coming Messiah and Lord with His kingdom vision (p. 37). The cross and the resurrection constitute a part of that story of Jesus from which then comes the plan of salvation. In itself the plan of salvation does not include discipleship, obedience, or justice (p. 40), whereas the gospel does. Thus, “when the plan [of salvation] gets separated from the story, the plan almost always becomes abstract, propositional, logical, rational, and philosophical and, most importantly, de-storified and unbiblical. . . . we cut ourselves off [from] the story that identifies us and tells our past and tells our future. We separate ourselves from Jesus and turn the Christian faith into a System of Salvation” (p. 62). McKnight concludes that the four Gospels serve as examples of “gospeling”—the proclaiming of the full good news (p. 90).

N.T. Wright, Scot McKnight and the Gospel: Compared and Contrasted



IOW, the Gospel is the story of Israel. God’s fulfilling of His promise to bless the world through the Seed, Jesus, through discipleship.


Now observe another explanation:

Quote
“We have studied Paul’s ‘gospel’, and have seen that underneath his regular formulae (‘the Lord Jesus Christ’ and so on) there is a carefully worked out sequence of thought, an implicit story-line, which when properly understood reveals that he both remained totally rooted in his Jewish world and was aiming his message directly at the principalities and powers of the Roman world, from Caesar downwards. Ultimately, though, this message was not simply a message about Jesus. Everything he said about Jesus was, for him, a way of talking about God.” (What Saint Paul Really Said? p.57)


N.T. Wright, Scot McKnight and the Gospel: Compared and Contrasted


IOW, the Gospel is God declaring it was not Caesar who was Lord, but God, it was Jesus who was Lord, who solved the problems of the world:

Quote
I’m inclined to agree with Wright that there are more things going on – and more things meant by ‘the gospel’ – then Scot allows for. Without minimizing the centrality of Jesus’ Story as the fulfillment of Israel’s Story it is imperative to note that Israel’s Story exists as an answer to Adam’s Story and that Story is really a Story about God and about creation and about a fall and about idolatry and about earthly rulers and political leaders and false god’s and the ‘good news’ proclaimed that these other rulers are the “son of god” who bring peace to the world and that through the meeting of the Isaiah prophecies of the “herald of good tidings” that the exile – not just Israel’s exile, but the Exile of humanity – was coming to an end, that this same herald of good tidings proclaimed by the apostles that “ultimately, for the Roman point of view, there was only one Lord of the world. According to Paul, he now had a rival” (What Saint Paul Really Said? P.5


To clarify, if we claim that the Gospel is only:

Quote
All this, according to Pastor Eric, is important theology but the gospel itself is the good news that Jesus died and rose again to save people from sin (pp. 32–33).

Book Review: The King Jesus Gospel: The Original Good News Revisited - Scot McKnight


then we face the danger of leaving out the good news about what being saved from sin involves. IOW, we tell people about being saved from sin, but don’t actually let them get saved from sin!

When I pointed this out to the OP in the thread: Has God Called Every Person, I received my second warning about being banned, indicating I had flamed another poster by questioning him about his salvation since he had not identified what prevented him from being fulfilled.

It seems strange that a ban warning would come for alerting sincere seekers of truth about a loss of direction, but I’m okay with it. I’m posting this to alert all about my pending absence in view of the confusion I’m presented with in how to proceed with discussions! It seems there is no way to alert said seekers about the better understanding scholars have today about the dilemma believers faced in the narrative and God’s solution to that dilemma, specifically the Exile Of Adam and The Return Of Israel. The first resulted in loss of access to Life and the second restored it, itself resulting in the restoration of Humanity's ability to subdue Creation, necessary for fulfillment, perfection.

Has God Called Every Person?