Why Amillennialism is wrong

Emun

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Only one point makes the doctrine of Amillennialism fall into pieces. Revelation tells us that the Millennial Kingdom will take place after the Antichrist is destroyed by Jesus. This is especially clear in Revelation 20:4 because it says that the Christians who were executed during the reign of the Antichrist will be resurrected and will reign with Christ for 1000 years. What does this passage tell us? That the Antichrist and his reign are already a thing of the past and that the Millennium will come only afterwards. But Amillennialism teaches that the millennium began in a symbolic way on Pentecost of the year 30 A.D.. So, if the millennium started 30 AD, it means that the Antichrist must have been there before 30 AD. But, of course, that can't be true, and I think everyone will agree with that.

As you can see, the amminalism has been refuted by this passage alone. It is as simple as that.
 

HTacianas

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Only one point makes the doctrine of Amillennialism fall into pieces. Revelation tells us that the Millennial Kingdom will take place after the Antichrist is destroyed by Jesus. This is especially clear in Revelation 20:4 because it says that the Christians who were executed during the reign of the Antichrist will be resurrected and will reign with Christ for 1000 years. What does this passage tell us? That the Antichrist and his reign are already a thing of the past and that the Millennium will come only afterwards. But Amillennialism teaches that the millennium began in a symbolic way on Pentecost of the year 30 A.D.. So, if the millennium started 30 AD, it means that the Antichrist must have been there before 30 AD. But, of course, that can't be true, and I think everyone will agree with that.

As you can see, the amminalism has been refuted by this passage alone. It is as simple as that.

1Jo 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
 
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Handmaid for Jesus

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1Jo 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
The spirit of antichrist has been in the world since the fall. The person of the antichrist is yet to come.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Only one point makes the doctrine of Amillennialism fall into pieces. Revelation tells us that the Millennial Kingdom will take place after the Antichrist is destroyed by Jesus. This is especially clear in Revelation 20:4 because it says that the Christians who were executed during the reign of the Antichrist will be resurrected and will reign with Christ for 1000 years. What does this passage tell us? That the Antichrist and his reign are already a thing of the past and that the Millennium will come only afterwards. But Amillennialism teaches that the millennium began in a symbolic way on Pentecost of the year 30 A.D.. So, if the millennium started 30 AD, it means that the Antichrist must have been there before 30 AD. But, of course, that can't be true, and I think everyone will agree with that.

As you can see, the amminalism has been refuted by this passage alone. It is as simple as that.

Not so! Quite the opposite! You are basing your reasoning on your own theology, not Amil beliefs. That is assuming that Revelation is chronological, which it is not.
 
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Timtofly

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Not so! Quite the opposite! You are basing your reasoning on your own theology, not Amil beliefs. That is assuming that Revelation is chronological, which it is not.
Only Amil can determine the not so chronological order of Revelation?
 
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keras

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Not so! Quite the opposite! You are basing your reasoning on your own theology, not Amil beliefs. That is assuming that Revelation is chronological, which it is not.
The Book of Revelation is basically chronological. There are some flashbacks, and Rev 11 15-19 is a forward prophecy.

The whole AMillennium belief is wrong and is a refutation of plainly stated scripture. It simply conflicts with the reality now and what we are told how it will be in the near future.
 
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DavidPT

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The spirit of antichrist has been in the world since the fall. The person of the antichrist is yet to come.


1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


To apply any of this since the fall makes no sense to me. Did verse 2---Jesus Christ is come in the flesh---happen in the beginning of the fall?

Were there spirits in the beginning of the fall that confessed not Jesus Christ is come in the flesh? If so, no wonder, the fact Jesus had not come in the flesh yet.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but I'm thinking to come in the flesh is meaning to be born into this world. Clearly, Christ wasn't born into this world in the beginning of the fall.

How then could there already be the spirit of antichrist since the fall? Doesn't this passage indicate this involves denying that Jesus is come in the flesh? Clearly, for example, unbelieving Jews were denying that 2000 years, and some continue to deny it to this day. But were any of them denying this before He was even born first? I don't see how. They were clearly expecting the Messiah to come and were looking forward to it, and still are, but when He did finally come, many of them denied that He was even the one that was to come, thus the spirit of antichrist.
 
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DavidPT

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But Amillennialism teaches that the millennium began in a symbolic way on Pentecost of the year 30 A.D.. So, if the millennium started 30 AD, it means that the Antichrist must have been there before 30 AD. But, of course, that can't be true, and I think everyone will agree with that.

Before He went to the cross there already were Jews denying that the promised Messiah has come in the flesh. To apply any of this before His death is not wrong, but to apply any of it before He was even born first, that couldn't possibly be correct. I'm not Amil nor am I a Preterist, yet it seems pretty obvious to me, since there already were Jews denying that the promised Messiah has come, that the spirit of antichrist was already at work before He went to the cross.
 
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DavidPT

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Not so! Quite the opposite! You are basing your reasoning on your own theology, not Amil beliefs. That is assuming that Revelation is chronological, which it is not.

I fully agree that Revelation is not chronological throughout, yet I'm Premil. Why am I not Amil then if this has to do with Revelation not being chronological throughout?
 
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Handmaid for Jesus

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1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


To apply any of this since the fall makes no sense to me. Did verse 2---Jesus Christ is come in the flesh---happen in the beginning of the fall?

Were there spirits in the beginning of the fall that confessed not Jesus Christ is come in the flesh? If so, no wonder, the fact Jesus had not come in the flesh yet.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but I'm thinking to come in the flesh is meaning to be born into this world. Clearly, Christ wasn't born into this world in the beginning of the fall.

How then could there already be the spirit of antichrist since the fall? Doesn't this passage indicate this involves denying that Jesus is come in the flesh? Clearly, for example, unbelieving Jews were denying that 2000 years, and some continue to deny it to this day. But were any of them denying this before He was even born first? I don't see how. They were clearly expecting the Messiah to come and were looking forward to it, and still are, but when He did finally come, many of them denied that He was even the one that was to come, thus the spirit of antichrist.
The Spirit of God always IS. Jesus said
John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Father,Son, Holy Spirit are One. Satan is always against Christ. We see him at the fall and following. Satan is a spirit being and so are the evil spirits that serve him. They are all spirits of antichrist.
 
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DavidPT

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The Spirit of God always IS. Jesus said
John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Father,Son, Holy Spirit are One. Satan is always against Christ. We see him at the fall and following. Satan is a spirit being and so are the evil spirits that serve him. They are all spirits of antichrist.

But still, that passage in question involves denying that Jesus has come in the flesh, something that He never did in the beginning of time and didn't do until the last days. I'm not disputing that evil spirits have been present since and before the fall of man, I'm disputing that the spirit of antichrist has if it involves denying that Christ is come in the flesh, which no one could even deny or not deny until He was born first.
 
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But still, that passage in question involves denying that Jesus has come in the flesh, something that He never did in the beginning of time and didn't do until the last days. I'm not disputing that evil spirits have been present since and before the fall of man, I'm disputing that the spirit of antichrist has if it involves denying that Christ is come in the flesh, which no one could even deny or not deny until He was born first.
Just think about it. The religious people believed that there would come the Christ/Messiah. They just denied He was Jesus. Lord Jesus said
John 5:43
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
 
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parousia70

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Only one point makes the doctrine of Amillennialism fall into pieces. Revelation tells us that the Millennial Kingdom will take place after the Antichrist is destroyed by Jesus. This is especially clear in Revelation 20:4 because it says that the Christians who were executed during the reign of the Antichrist will be resurrected and will reign with Christ for 1000 years.
Revelation contains no mention of antichrist. If your attempt at a refutation of a particular view requires you insert words into scriptures that aren't actually in those scriptures, I'd suggest it isn't the view you are attempting to refute that has the problem....
 
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claninja

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Only one point makes the doctrine of Amillennialism fall into pieces. Revelation tells us that the Millennial Kingdom will take place after the Antichrist is destroyed by Jesus. This is especially clear in Revelation 20:4 because it says that the Christians who were executed during the reign of the Antichrist will be resurrected and will reign with Christ for 1000 years. What does this passage tell us? That the Antichrist and his reign are already a thing of the past and that the Millennium will come only afterwards. But Amillennialism teaches that the millennium began in a symbolic way on Pentecost of the year 30 A.D.. So, if the millennium started 30 AD, it means that the Antichrist must have been there before 30 AD. But, of course, that can't be true, and I think everyone will agree with that.

As you can see, the amminalism has been refuted by this passage alone. It is as simple as that.

This presupposes that:

1.) the vision in revelation 20 chronologically follows the vision revelation 19

2.) revelation 20:4 refers to those who haven’t worshipped or taken the mark of the ONLY the eighth king.


Amil will disagree with these presuppositions. You would have to prove these presuppositions true in order to surmount Amil. However, since these can’t be proven to be objectively true due to the highly apocalyptic, symbolic, and obscure nature of the text, it’s simply not correct that you have refuted Amil.
 
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DavidPT

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This presupposes that:

1.) the vision in revelation 20 chronologically follows the vision revelation 19

2.) revelation 20:4 refers to those who haven’t worshipped or taken the mark of the ONLY the eighth king.


Amil will disagree with these presuppositions. You would have to prove these presuppositions true in order to surmount Amil. However, since these can’t be proven to be objectively true due to the highly apocalyptic, symbolic, and obscure nature of the text, it’s simply not correct that you have refuted Amil.

Let's face it, though. It doesn't matter what anyone can prove, no one, which includes Amils, Premils, Postmils, Preterists, are ever going to admit that their positions have been debunked by anyone. But that aside.

I don't see it making sense that anyone is martyred for not worshiping the beast while it is in the pit. Amils apparently see that making sense, I don't. The beast is obviously in the pit at some point if it ascends from the pit at some point.

What Revelation 20:4 tends to prove to me is that the saints martyred for not worshiping the beast, nor it's image, etc, they are martyred, not while the beast is still in the pit, but after it has ascended out of the pit, and that they are martyred before satan ever has his little season. Which means when satan ascends out of the pit after the thousand years, this has zero to do with the beast ascending out of the pit when satan does. How could it if the saints recorded in Revelation 20:4, meaning the ones that don't worship the beast, thus are martyred, are martyred by the beast after it ascends out of the pit first? Which beast? How about these below?

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.


Is anyone going to argue, pertaining to the first beast, that this has been it's status since the beginning of time---one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed?

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


All of these saints have been martyred, yet they all haven't been martyred for the same reasons. Some of these have been martyred, which might include saints such as Stephen, John the Baptist, while the beast is still in the pit. Thus, they weren't martyred because they had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.

IMO, one cannot be martyred for refusing to worship an entity that is not even active in the earth at the time if it is depicted in the pit instead, since it doesn't make sense that there is even this option to worship or not worship the beast if it's depicted in the pit at the time.

For those who insist that the beast is still alive and well once satan ascends out of the pit, could anyone point out in Revelation 20 where it even mentions the beast still being alive and well rather than already in the lake of fire? It does mention Gog and Magog, though. But is that meaning the head as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed? According to Revelation 20:10, that verse gives the impression that when satan is cast into the LOF, the beast and false prophet are already there, thus have been cast into the LOF before satan is.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Let's face it, though. It doesn't matter what anyone can prove, no one, which includes Amils, Premils, Postmils, Preterists, are ever going to admit that their positions have been debunked by anyone. But that aside.

I don't see it making sense that anyone is martyred for not worshiping the beast while it is in the pit. Amils apparently see that making sense, I don't. The beast is obviously in the pit at some point if it ascends from the pit at some point.

What Revelation 20:4 tends to prove to me is that the saints martyred for not worshiping the beast, nor it's image, etc, they are martyred, not while the beast is still in the pit, but after it has ascended out of the pit, and that they are martyred before satan ever has his little season. Which means when satan ascends out of the pit after the thousand years, this has zero to do with the beast ascending out of the pit when satan does. How could it if the saints recorded in Revelation 20:4, meaning the ones that don't worship the beast, thus are martyred, are martyred by the beast after it ascends out of the pit first? Which beast? How about these below?

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.


Is anyone going to argue, pertaining to the first beast, that this has been it's status since the beginning of time---one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed?

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


All of these saints have been martyred, yet they all haven't been martyred for the same reasons. Some of these have been martyred, which might include saints such as Stephen, John the Baptist, while the beast is still in the pit. Thus, they weren't martyred because they had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.

IMO, one cannot be martyred for refusing to worship an entity that is not even active in the earth at the time if it is depicted in the pit instead, since it doesn't make sense that there is even this option to worship or not worship the beast if it's depicted in the pit at the time.

For those who insist that the beast is still alive and well once satan ascends out of the pit, could anyone point out in Revelation 20 where it even mentions the beast still being alive and well rather than already in the lake of fire? It does mention Gog and Magog, though. But is that meaning the head as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed? According to Revelation 20:10, that verse gives the impression that when satan is cast into the LOF, the beast and false prophet are already there, thus have been cast into the LOF before satan is.

You more than any poster is preoccupied with the identity of the beast. So, who is the beast? When did he begin?
 
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DavidPT

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You more than any poster is preoccupied with the identity of the beast. So, who is the beast? When did he begin?


How is any of that relevant, though?

For example, assuming one can be martyred for not worshiping the beast while it's depicted as 'is not', apparently meaning when it's in the pit, why then does it even need to ascend out of the pit to begin with? What advantage does this give to the beast if folks can already be martyred for not worshiping it while it is in the pit? Clearly, when it is in the pit, and when it is no longer in the pit, this can't mean the same thing. But if one can be martyred for refusing to worship it while it is in the pit, and can be martyred for refusing to worship it when it is no longer in the pit, this means these are meaning the same thing.
 
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sovereigngrace

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How is any of that relevant, though?

For example, assuming one can be martyred for not worshiping the beast while it's depicted as 'is not', apparently meaning when it's in the pit, why then does it even need to ascend out of the pit to begin with? What advantage does this give to the beast if folks can already be martyred for not worshiping it while it is in the pit? Clearly, when it is in the pit, and when it is no longer in the pit, this can't mean the same thing. But if one can be martyred for refusing to worship it while it is in the pit, and can be martyred for refusing to worship it when it is no longer in the pit, this means these are meaning the same thing.

Answer the question please, and stop avoiding: who is the beast? When did he begin?
 
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claninja

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Let's face it, though. It doesn't matter what anyone can prove, no one, which includes Amils, Premils, Postmils, Preterists, are ever going to admit that their positions have been debunked by anyone. But that aside.

I don't see it making sense that anyone is martyred for not worshiping the beast while it is in the pit. Amils apparently see that making sense, I don't. The beast is obviously in the pit at some point if it ascends from the pit at some point.

What Revelation 20:4 tends to prove to me is that the saints martyred for not worshiping the beast, nor it's image, etc, they are martyred, not while the beast is still in the pit, but after it has ascended out of the pit, and that they are martyred before satan ever has his little season. Which means when satan ascends out of the pit after the thousand years, this has zero to do with the beast ascending out of the pit when satan does. How could it if the saints recorded in Revelation 20:4, meaning the ones that don't worship the beast, thus are martyred, are martyred by the beast after it ascends out of the pit first? Which beast? How about these below?

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.


Is anyone going to argue, pertaining to the first beast, that this has been it's status since the beginning of time---one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed?

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


All of these saints have been martyred, yet they all haven't been martyred for the same reasons. Some of these have been martyred, which might include saints such as Stephen, John the Baptist, while the beast is still in the pit. Thus, they weren't martyred because they had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.

IMO, one cannot be martyred for refusing to worship an entity that is not even active in the earth at the time if it is depicted in the pit instead, since it doesn't make sense that there is even this option to worship or not worship the beast if it's depicted in the pit at the time.

For those who insist that the beast is still alive and well once satan ascends out of the pit, could anyone point out in Revelation 20 where it even mentions the beast still being alive and well rather than already in the lake of fire? It does mention Gog and Magog, though. But is that meaning the head as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed? According to Revelation 20:10, that verse gives the impression that when satan is cast into the LOF, the beast and false prophet are already there, thus have been cast into the LOF before satan is.

While the eighth “was not”, “Five have fallen, and one is, and one is yet to come”.

Is it your position that those who don’t worship the beast nor take its mark only refers to the eighth that comes from the abyss? Those killed and/or persecuted by the beast under the 7 heads don’t partake in the first resurrection?
 
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DavidPT

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Is it your position that those who don’t worship the beast nor take its mark only refers to the eighth that comes from the abyss?


That's probably the case in my case. One way I am determining that, is like such. Unfortunately, this turned out somewhat lengthy in order for me to try and explain how I'm arriving at some of these things.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

1) was
2) is not
3) shall ascend out of the bottomless pit

Obviously, all 3 can't be true at the same time. 1) appears to be meaning a time before the beast is ever in the pit. 2) appears to be meaning a time when the beast is in the pit. 3), well that's obvious what that means.

Then we need to factor this in.

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

When should we assume this is meaning----and his deadly wound was healed? During the time of 1)? During the time of 2)? Or during the time of 3) once it has ascended out of the pit?

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Which of the 7 kings mentioned in verse 10 should we assume Revelation 13:3---and his deadly wound was healed--is involving?

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

This passage makes it crystal clear that the time involving the 2nd beast, it coincides with the time pertaining to the first beast, where one of it's heads has a deadly wound, and that his deadly wound was healed. As can be seen in this passage, regardless what it actually looks like when the 2nd beast does all of these things, meaning maybe it's involving literal events or maybe it isn't, until verse 14 is fulfilled first, there is no image to worship or not worship, there is no mark to take or not take.

Which then brings us back to the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. None of this martyrdom is even possible unless there is first a beast that rises out of the sea, having 7 heads, and that one of it's heads has a deadly wound and is healed, and that a 2nd beast rises out of the earth fulfilling everything recorded in Revelation 13:12-17 pertaining to him and what all he does once he rises out of the earth. It doesn't matter what that might look like, him rising out of the earth. The point is, until that is fulfilled first, none of the martyrdom recorded in Revelation 20:4---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands---is even possible, and that this is meaning before satan ever has his little season.

And that this has to be meaning during 3), which means that the beast that is in the pit until it ascends out of it, it doesn't rise out of the pit when satan does, as some Amils insist, it rises out of the pit before the thousand years even begin, which then places the time of the 42 month reign of the beast prior to the beginning of the thousand years. This makes nonsense out of where the 42 months logically fit if Amil is correct that the beginning of the thousand years fit at around the time of the cross or soon thereafter. This would mean everything recorded in Revelation 13 fits prior to the cross.

Amils don't agree the 42 months fit before the time of the cross, yet that doesn't matter though since all of the facts point to that the 42 months precede the beginning of the thousand years, and that if Amil places the beginning of the thousand years 2000 years ago, that means logically the 42 months have to precede that.

Premil doesn't have this issue since Premil isn't trying to force the time of the beginning of the thousand years to be meaning 2000 years ago, thus making nonsense out of Revelation 13 in the process, the fact those events were still future to when John saw those visions, not something already in the past instead.




Those killed and/or persecuted by the beast under the 7 heads don’t partake in the first resurrection?

Unfortunately, I'm not understanding what you are meaning via this question. Maybe you can expand on it some more?
 
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