WHO WILL REIGN WITH CHRIST ?

Dan Perez

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In Matt 20:21 , the mother asked Jesus if her 2 sons may sit , the one on thy right hand and the other son sit on his left hand , in thy kingdom .

OR with rather sit and reign with Christ as 2 Tim 2:11 reads , Faithful is the Word , For since we died together with Him , we also live together with Him .

And verse 12 says , If we endue , we will also REIGN TOGETHER if we deny Him , he also will deny us .

Why did Paul use the word DENY ?

Can it be what we preach ?

Preach OT LAW /

Preach the NEW COVENANT ?

What did Paul preach ?

What say you ?

dan p
 
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d taylor

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HTacianas

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In Matt 20:21 , the mother asked Jesus if her 2 sons may sit , the one on thy right hand and the other son sit on his left hand , in thy kingdom .

OR with rather sit and reign with Christ as 2 Tim 2:11 reads , Faithful is the Word , For since we died together with Him , we also live together with Him .

And verse 12 says , If we endue , we will also REIGN TOGETHER if we deny Him , he also will deny us .

Why did Paul use the word DENY ?

Can it what we preach ?

Preach OT LAW /

Preach the NEW COVENANT ?

What did Paul preach ?

What say you ?

dan p

It means to deny being a Christian. It was common at the time for Jews to more or less harass Christians as being apostates from Judaism. Also, during the persecutions Christians would be tortured or threatened with death unless they renounced their faith. It's found also in the Revelation:

Rev 3:8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name.

Rev 2:13 “I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.
 
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oikonomia

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The reward to reign with Christ during the millennium is given to those who He deems have "overcome."

And to overcome is to be filled with His life so that He is enjoyed in the reigning in life in the age before then.

Some will have given their lives in martydom.
Some because they lived seemingly mundane lives yet through the grace of Christ.
Some will have served well through the grace that they lived by.
Some will reign who have overcome offenses and forgiven other is His name.
Some because of thier prayers.
Some because of being built up with others in love.

The Lord will make that decision who is to be rewarded to reign with Him at the judgment seat of Christ.
There are sure to be surprises.
And the last shall be first and the first shall be last.

You and I have a chance to be so rewarded as Christians.
 
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Dan Perez

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The reward to reign with Christ during the millennium is given to those who He deems have "overcome."

And to overcome is to be filled with His life so that He is enjoyed in the reigning in life in the age before then.

Some will have given their lives in martydom.
Some because they lived seemingly mundane lives yet through the grace of Christ.
Some will have served well through the grace that they lived by.
Some will reign who have overcome offenses and forgiven other is His name.
Some because of thier prayers.
Some because of being built up with others in love.

The Lord will make that decision who is to be rewarded to reign with Him at the judgment seat of Christ.
There are sure to be surprises.
And the last shall be first and the first shall be last.

You and I have a chance to be so rewarded as Christians.
The KJV translates the Greek word ARNEOMAI / DENY and one person that I know , translates it CONTRADICT or it can be translated by Reject , Refuse , or Disavow ,

The first use of ARNEOMAI is in the Greek PRESENT TENSE , MIDDLE or PASSIVE VOICE and in the INDICATIVE MOOD and is SINGULAR .

The second use of ARNEOMAI is the FUTURE TENSE and SINGULAR and I believe , that the FUTURE TENSE is pointing to the BEMA SEAT JUDGMENT .

There are rewards to be handed out and some will be SAVED and will SUFFER LOSS , 1 Cor 3:15 ..


And , believe what we TEACH , and WATER , but God was CAUSING the growth of our ministry .


What say you ??

dan p
 
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oikonomia

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There are rewards to be handed out and some will be SAVED and will SUFFER LOSS , 1 Cor 3:15 ..


And , believe what we TEACH , and WATER , but God was CAUSING the growth of our ministry .


What say you ??

dan p
I say this is true.
God gives the growth of God.

We all should be faithful to grow ourselves as we plant and water.

And there are the SAVED who will receive a reward for how they so served.
And there are the SAVED who will nevertheless suffer loss temporarily.

So we have to learn to ministry Christ, minister a living Person in all that we minister.
We have to learn to minister the Spirit in all of our ministry, all of out teaching and serving the Lord.
Minister more Christ to me please.
 
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1Tonne

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I believe that the 144,000 are the martyrs who reign with Christ for 1000 years. So, only them and no one else. No other believers. Only the Jewish martyrs will reign.

Take note: I try to read the bible as literal as possible. So, if it says something, I do not try to add another mystical meaning to it.

In Rev 6:11 it describes the martyrs. Each of them was given a white robe and they had to wait until the number of them was completed.
“The people who have the white robes are those that had been slain for the word of God. Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.”

Rev 7:4-8 then describes how John hears the number of people who are to be martyred and he hears where they come from. He does not see them. He only describes them as being from the 12 tribes of Israel. If we do not stop reading at verse 8 and continue, I believe that John actually sees the martyrs. That is the 144,000. He also describes them. So, verses 9-17 describes what he sees. He sees an amazing crowd, so massive that he could not count them. Imagine seeing 144,000 people. It would seem impossible to count. These people came from all over the world. Now before WW2, the Jewish people were scattered everywhere throughout the world, but all the long, they kept their identity. Then Israel, the country, was formed in 1948 and the Jewish people started to return. Thus, the wording, “of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues”.
"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, …….. Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
Verse 9 also mentions that they are the ones with the white robes which were given out in Rev 6:11.

So:
-Rev 6:11. The martyrs are given white robes and have to wait for the rest of the martyrs.
-Then Rev 7:4-8 – John hears of the number. That is 144,000 and he is told they are from the 12 tribes of Israel.
-Lastly, in Rev 7:9-14, it describes what they look like.

Now, if we look at Rev 20:4, it says that the martyrs are judged by more than one person. “And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them….”
So, we know that the martyrs are from the 12 tribes of Israel. In Matt 19:20 Jesus said that he would hand over the judgment of the nation of Israel, to the disciples. “And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel”.
So, in Rev 20:4, it is the disciples who are the judges.

Then in the remainder of verse Rev 20:4 and continuing to verse 5, it says, that these martyrs are the ones that return with Christ to reign for 1000. “Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.”

Verse 6 says, that everyone else, so every believer and non-believer are not raised until the end of the 1000 years “But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.”

So, I believe that the martyrs are Jewish people and that they are the only ones who return with Christ to reign for 1000 years.
 
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oikonomia

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I believe that the 144,000 are the martyrs who reign with Christ for 1000 years. So, only them and no one else. No other believers. Only the Jewish martyrs will reign.

Take note: I try to read the bible as literal as possible. So, if it says something, I do not try to add another mystical meaning to it.

In Rev 6:11 it describes the martyrs. Each of them was given a white robe and they had to wait until the number of them was completed.
“The people who have the white robes are those that had been slain for the word of God. Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.”

Rev 7:4-8 then describes how John hears the number of people who are to be martyred and he hears where they come from. He does not see them. He only describes them as being from the 12 tribes of Israel. If we do not stop reading at verse 8 and continue, I believe that John actually sees the martyrs. That is the 144,000. He also describes them. So, verses 9-17 describes what he sees. He sees an amazing crowd, so massive that he could not count them. Imagine seeing 144,000 people. It would seem impossible to count. These people came from all over the world. Now before WW2, the Jewish people were scattered everywhere throughout the world, but all the long, they kept their identity. Then Israel, the country, was formed in 1948 and the Jewish people started to return. Thus, the wording, “of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues”.
"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, …….. Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
Verse 9 also mentions that they are the ones with the white robes which were given out in Rev 6:11.

So:
-Rev 6:11. The martyrs are given white robes and have to wait for the rest of the martyrs.
-Then Rev 7:4-8 – John hears of the number. That is 144,000 and he is told they are from the 12 tribes of Israel.
-Lastly, in Rev 7:9-14, it describes what they look like.

Now, if we look at Rev 20:4, it says that the martyrs are judged by more than one person. “And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them….”
So, we know that the martyrs are from the 12 tribes of Israel. In Matt 19:20 Jesus said that he would hand over the judgment of the nation of Israel, to the disciples. “And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel”.
So, in Rev 20:4, it is the disciples who are the judges.

Then in the remainder of verse Rev 20:4 and continuing to verse 5, it says, that these martyrs are the ones that return with Christ to reign for 1000. “Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.”

Verse 6 says, that everyone else, so every believer and non-believer are not raised until the end of the 1000 years “But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.”

So, I believe that the martyrs are Jewish people and that they are the only ones who return with Christ to reign for 1000 years.
Interesting indeed 1Tonne. After reading it twice through carefully to grasp every part of your reasoning-
it is Interesting.

If you want to have it tested with some observations, let me know.
There are certain aspects I'd be curious as to how you would respond.

The bottom line is you think only Jewish martyed to death disciples of Christ are the only ones to co-reign with Christ in the millennium.
Do you want to be examined a little there?
 
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oikonomia

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I believe that the 144,000 are the martyrs who reign with Christ for 1000 years. So, only them and no one else. No other believers. Only the Jewish martyrs will reign.

Take note: I try to read the bible as literal as possible. So, if it says something, I do not try to add another mystical meaning to it.

In Rev 6:11 it describes the martyrs. Each of them was given a white robe and they had to wait until the number of them was completed.
“The people who have the white robes are those that had been slain for the word of God. Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.”
Okay. These underneath the altar are given white robes, they were martyred.

Now in Revelation 3:4,5 some believers are also promised to walk with the Lord in white, for not being defiled.
And the context is defilement of spiritual death.

"But you have a few names in Sardis who have not defiled thier garments, and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.
He who overcomes, he shall be clothed in white garments, . . . " (4,5a)


It is conceivable that some are rewarded for keeping themselves from DEFILEMENT of spiritual death THOUGH martyrdom
may not have been thier experience. For this reason, I would hesitate to believe that ONLY those who were martyred to death for Jesus
are rewarded to be clothed in white garments.
Rev 7:4-8 then describes how John hears the number of people who are to be martyred and he hears where they come from.
John HEARS the number of what?
It is the number who have been SEALED. That is all we know about them.
And the SEALING is for preservation through the upcoming trials.

"Do not harm the earth nor the sea not the trees until we have sealed the slave sof our God upon their foreheads. And I heard the number of those who were sealed a hundred and forty-four thousand sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel." (v.4)

He hears the number sealed.
He hears they are sealed unto protection.
I don't know why you think we have to see it is sealed for MARTYRDOM.
Isn't that an assumption?


He does not see them. He only describes them as being from the 12 tribes of Israel. If we do not stop reading at verse 8 and continue, I believe that John actually sees the martyrs. That is the 144,000. He also describes them. So, verses 9-17 describes what he sees.

Is it not that AFTER the previous things, he sees the uncountable multitude?

"After THESE THINGS I saw, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, . . . " (v9)

Now the way I read it is that HE SAW one vision
(v. 1) - "After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth . . . etc."
(v.9) "After these things I saw, and behold, a great multitude . . . "

You saying the first seeing did not include seeing 144,000 but only HEARING the count.
Hmmm.
Well the CONTRAST seems to be between TWO amounts.
1.) 144,000 (12,000 from 12 tribes) contrasted with
2.) a multitude which NO ONE could number.


The contrast to me is between what man can number and what no man can count.
The contrast is to me between a limited number of Israelites preserved and an virutally unlimited number from EVERY nation, tribe and tongue
preserved.

Aside from this, THOUGH the term "great tribulation" is used as a specific period elsewhere in the Bible, I think here in Rev. 7:14 the meaning is the great tribulation of the entire world history from the fall of Adam. The ENTIRE world history while God's will is opposed by Satan is in this sense the great tribulation of the entire history of mankind.

I believe the unnumberable multitude represents God showing His preservation of ALL who are saved by Him through out the entire great tribulation of human history.

"Those who are clothed in white robes, who are theym and where did they come from?
And I said to him, My lord, you know. And he said to me, These are those who come out of the great tribulation and have washed their robes and made them white i the blood of the Lamb.

Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits upon the throne shall spread
His tabernacle over them. They shall not hunger anynore, neither shall they thirst anymore, neither shall the sun beat upon them, nor any heat;
For the Lamb in the midst of the throne shall shepherd them and shall guide them to springs of waters of life; and God shall wipe away every tear fromtheir eyes." (vs.13b-17)

This inserted vision following that of the 144,000 sealed Isrealites, I would rather teach, is a vision of ALL HUMAN BEINGS who through
the entire human history come out saved through the Lamb of God. This chapter 7 is dedicated to showing that in judgment God will not wipe out everything and everyone. And also through ALL of human history God will preserve a huge unnumberable multitude to have eternal life and be forever guided to the enjoyment of God as divine life by Christ the Redeemer - the Lamb.

Let me stop here for length.
I enjoyed your analysis of the two visions though.
I may comment further on the rest latter.
 
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1Tonne

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John HEARS the number of what?
It is the number who have been SEALED. That is all we know about them.
If we look at the Rev 7:4-8 by itself, then yes, that is all we know about them. But the chapter continues. Most people who read Rev 7:9-17 look at these verses as a totally different vision. But I do not believe it is. It is just a continuation. First John hears the number of people, the 144,000, and then he sees them all.
Then, if we go back to Rev 6:11 it says that there is a number of people to be martyred. There was no need to say this unless it had a specific meaning. That is that it links to the 144,000.
Also, if we look at who judges the martyrs in Rev 20:4 it shows that there are a number of thrones and a number of Judges. We know that Jesus judges the world, and so if it was Jesus judging, then it would be one throne. But Jesus handed over the Judgement of Israel to the disciples. Hence, there are a number of thrones and a number of judges.
You are saying the first seeing did not include seeing 144,000 but only HEARING the count.
Correct. John saw 4 angels hold back the 4 winds and then he sees another angel rising from the sun. This last angel says, not to harm the earth until the bond servants are sealed. The angel then continues talking and says the 12 tribes of Israel. Then after these things (verse9), that is, the angels holding back the wind and one rising from the sun, he then sees the great multitude. This is the 144,000.
The contrast to me is between what man can number and what no man can count.
So, we have to look at this from John's point of view. First, as he is looking at the angels, and one of them tells him (vs4 "and I heard") of the number of people (144,000). Then when he sees (vs9 "I looked) the massive crowd, who have palm branches and are most likely waving them. It would feel as though there were too many to count. I know that I could not count 144,000 people who were waving palm branches and worshiping.
Aside from this, THOUGH the term "great tribulation" is used as a specific period elsewhere in the Bible, I think here in Rev. 7:14 the meaning is the great tribulation of the entire world history from the fall of Adam. The ENTIRE world history while God's will is opposed by Satan is in this sense the great tribulation of the entire history of mankind.
I guess that depends on your end times understanding. I believe that the tribulation is still to come. So, it has not been throughout history. And although I do believe that it will be worldwide, I believe that most of the end times event happen in Israel. (Each to their own with this as I know most people will not change their thinking. We could discuss it for a very long time, and I do not have time for that)

But overall, thank you for the feedback. Some people on here can be rather rude if you post up a different prospective but you have been a gentleman about it. Cheers.
 
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oikonomia

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If we look at the Rev 7:4-8 by itself, then yes, that is all we know about them. But the chapter continues. Most people who read Rev 7:9-17 look at these verses as a totally different vision. But I do not believe it is. It is just a continuation. First John hears the number of people, the 144,000, and then he sees them all.
I did consider verses 4-8 as following "And I saw another Angel ascending from the rising of the sun, . . . " (v.2)
Then we have the description of the 144,000 sealed.
Then I consider verses 10-17 as following "After these things I saw, and behold, there was a great multitude . . . (v.9)

I think of it as one chapter on one subject with three mentions of what John saw- verse 1, verse 2, and verse 9.
And I think an underlining theme of the chapter is God preserving people whether in or through calamities, judgments, trials, etc. that have occurred or will ever occur in the world's history.
But please go on.

Then, if we go back to Rev 6:11 it says that there is a number of people to be martyred. There was no need to say this unless it had a specific meaning. That is that it links to the 144,000.
Well, I have never thought of the connection in this way.
Rev. 6:11 - the souls underneath the altar at the opening of the Fifth Seal are that, souls in Hades (the comfortable side) awaiting resurrection. Its evident that THEY are "sleeping" - ie. death. (v.11)

Now the NEXT vision is of the opening of the Sixth Seal (verses 12-17).
Now I have been taught, and persuaded that the Sixth Seal is an indication that the supernatural judgments of God are ABOUT to start.
This is brief here.

Now BETWEEN the Sixth Seal and the Seventh Seal is inserted visions. That is the visions of chapter 7.
And the underlying theme, imo, AFTER the indication that superatural judgments of God is coming upon the world,
God indicates that all mankind will not be wiped out. Israelites from the twelve tribes are SEALED for His special purpose for them.
And all the saved are garuanteed to come out of the entire age of "the great tribulation" of all history.

Now, you apparently connect these 144,000 with the souls underneath the altar seen in the Fifth Seal.
It is interesting. But I see them as living who are assured they will remain living in spite of the HARM that is coming on the world.

"After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds fo the earth,
so that no wind would blow on the earth nor on the sea nor on any tree. And I saw another Angel ascending from the rising of the sun; and He cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom authority
was given to harm the earth and the sea, Saying Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we seal the slaves of our God upon their foreheads. . . . And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the ons of Israel" (7:1-4)

These people are ALIVE when this sealing takes place.
I think you are suggesting that THEY ARE ABOUT to die ?
I think they are about to be PRESERVED from harm, including death, through the impending calamities coming.
Preservtion FROM harm, I see as the theme.

But go on please. I'm interested to hear the musings of other believingstudents of the Scriptures.

Also, if we look at who judges the martyrs in Rev 20:4 it shows that there are a number of thrones and a number of Judges. We know that Jesus judges the world, and so if it was Jesus judging, then it would be one throne. But Jesus handed over the Judgement of Israel to the disciples. Hence, there are a number of thrones and a number of judges.
Okay. Praise the Lord.
How do you feel about promises to reign in the millennium given by Jesus with no particular reference to anything except FAITHFULNESS?
IE. The wise servants who made a profit for Him. (Luke 19:11-27)

"And the first appeared, saying Master, your mina has gained ten minas.
And he said to him, Well done, good and faithful slave. Because you have become faithful in the least, have authority over ten cities."
And the second came, saying, You mina, master, has made five minas.
And he said to this one as well, And you, be over five cities." (Luke 19:16-19)

No particular mention that they HAD to be Jewish.
And no particular mention that they shed blood and were martyred.
But they were prudent and faithful.
And as reward they are granted reigning authority over cities.

The same holds for the teaching of the talents distributed by the Master to His servants (Matt. 25:1-14-30).

"HIs master said to him, Well done, good and faithful slave, You were faithful over a few things. I will set you over many things.

Enter into the joy of your master." (v.21)
"His master said to him, Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful over a few things; I will set you over many things.

Enter into the joy of your master (v.23)

Here the qualification for being over the Lord's possessions is their fathfulness with what He apportioned to them.
No particular mention of martyrdom is made.

Paul mentions that we may reign with Him for faithfulness which I think MAY or MAY NOT include shedding martyrs blood.

"Faithful is the word: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
If we ENDURE we will also reign with Him;
if we deny Himm He also will deny us.

If we are faithless He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself. (2 Tim. 2:11-13)

Faithfulness may call for death.
But faithfulness may call for just endurance.

So I would not make death for the Lord the only criteria to co-reign with Him in the millennium.
Still it is a glory that Rev. 20 DOES mentioned those who reign who were beheaded.

Unfortunately, I have to suspend fellowship for a time.
I will come back latter.
You have other interesting comments.



 
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oikonomia

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Also, if we look at who judges the martyrs in Rev 20:4 it shows that there are a number of thrones and a number of Judges. We know that Jesus judges the world, and so if it was Jesus judging, then it would be one throne. But Jesus handed over the Judgement of Israel to the disciples. Hence, there are a number of thrones and a number of judges.
You know that Paul told the saints in the church in Corinth that they would judge the world and would also even judge angels.

"Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world" (1 Cor. 6:2a)
"Do you not know that we will judge angels, not to mention things of this life?" (v.3)

Do you think he was expecting all the believers in Corinth to be martyred in order to qualifiy for this?
I do not get the impression he either KNEW that he was to die yet OR the saints in Corinth were.

I think he is encouraging them to be wise, faithful, and rightousnly able to discern in matters of judgment.

"Does any one of you who has a case against another dare to be judged before the unrighteouos and not before the saints?"

Correct. John saw 4 angels hold back the 4 winds and then he sees another angel rising from the sun. This last angel says, not to harm the earth until the bond servants are sealed. The angel then continues talking and says the 12 tribes of Israel. Then after these things (verse9), that is, the angels holding back the wind and one rising from the sun, he then sees the great multitude. This is the 144,000.

So, we have to look at this from John's point of view. First, as he is looking at the angels, and one of them tells him (vs4 "and I heard") of the number of people (144,000). Then when he sees (vs9 "I looked) the massive crowd, who have palm branches and are most likely waving them. It would feel as though there were too many to count. I know that I could not count 144,000 people who were waving palm branches and worshiping.
It is an allusion to the Feast of Tabernacles.

I guess that depends on your end times understanding. I believe that the tribulation is still to come.
I also believe the great tribulation spoken of in Matthew 24 is still to come.
But I think the term "tribulation" and even "great tribulation" might be used in other senses.

Ie. John was a partaker with the saints in the tribulation and kingdom.

"I John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and endurance in Jesus, was on the island caled Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." (Rev. 1:9)
This is tribulation, but not in the sense of the three and one half year great tribulation.

"Behold, I cast her into a bed, and those who commit adultery with her, into great tribulation, unless rtheu repent of her works." (2:22)
Here this great tribulation is more general and not THE great tribulation of the end times, imo.

The great tribulation that the innumerable multitude comes through, I think, is that of ALL history's tribulation since man was on earth.

So, it has not been throughout history. And although I do believe that it will be worldwide, I believe that most of the end times event happen in Israel. (Each to their own with this as I know most people will not change their thinking. We could discuss it for a very long time, and I do not have time for that)
I have come to agree that in the end times the area around the Mediterranean Sea, including Israel and a revived Roman Empire will be the worst of the places. But it is said to come upon the whole inhabeted earth. But I see refugees fleeing to what would then be considered the wilderness during those terrible times.

I think the earth will not be a fit place for human life during the worst times of the end.
But overall, thank you for the feedback. Some people on here can be rather rude if you post up a different prospective but you have been a gentleman about it. Cheers.
This are not major things over which Christians should fall out about.
They do not rise to the level of Christ's deity, His redemption, His resurrection, and a few MAJOR tenets of the faith.

You can bounce some of your thoughts on me any time.
We know in part and we prophesy in part. Amen.
 
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1Tonne

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Sorry, I probably don't have time to answer everything and to be honest, I do not have all the answers. But I will see what I can quickly answer.

These people are ALIVE when this sealing takes place.
I think you are suggesting that THEY ARE ABOUT to die?
To be honest, I am not sure. They may be alive, or the seal could be given to them as they are killed. So, they become martyrs for their testimony of Christ and are sealed. Making them one of the 144,000
Then, once all the bondservants have the seal, that is when harm comes to the earth, sea and trees, etc.
Okay. Praise the Lord.
How do you feel about promises to reign in the millennium given by Jesus with no particular reference to anything except FAITHFULNESS?
IE. The wise servants who made a profit for Him. (Luke 19:11-27)

No particular mention that they HAD to be Jewish.
And no particular mention that they shed blood and were martyred.
But they were prudent and faithful.
And as reward they are granted reigning authority over cities.
Correct. Faithful servants will be rewarded, and we too are those servants. This is a parable and so we cannot be sure what the reward is, but it will be great. Maybe we do get to reign over a city. But the 144,000 will be reigning over us.
Faithfulness may call for death.
But faithfulness may call for just endurance.
This I like.
Also, for those that have to endure, they like the martyrs, have to obey.
 
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1Tonne

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Do you think he was expecting all the believers in Corinth to be martyred in order to qualify for this?
No. We can all be classed as saint for the fact that we give up our lives for Christ too. "It is no long I that lives, but Christ that lives in me."
I guess the question is, is there a difference between those that are beheaded for their testimony in Christ and those that live to the end of their life?
 
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oikonomia

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To be honest, I am not sure. They may be alive, or the seal could be given to them as they are killed. So, they become martyrs for their testimony of Christ and are sealed. Making them one of the 144,000
Then, once all the bondservants have the seal, that is when harm comes to the earth, sea and trees, etc.
Think it through a bit.
Why are they being sealed? For what reason is a seal put on them?
Isn't it so that when harm is released, the sealing mark upon them indicates they should be exempted from that harm?

"Do not harm the earth nor the sea nor the trees until we have sealed the slaves of our God upon their foreheads." (7:3)
Ie. "WITHHOLD harm upon the earth until these are distinguished as to be PROTECTED."

It seems unlikely to me that God's intention was that they should NOT be harmed by natural calamity in nature,
only so that HUMAN harm MAY come to them and they be killed. Do you see what I mean?

Rather my sense is they should be protectedd from harm (at least the killing harm) either way.
This is before the opening of the Seveenth Seal. And the contents of the Seventh Seal are the Seven Trumpets.
Like Russian dolls inside each other - the opening of the Seventh Seal reveals inside are Seven Trumpets.
And inside the Seventh Trumpet, low and behold are the contents of Seven Bowls.

But I digress. The Trumpets encrease in severity, getting worse and worse. At first not touching man himself directly.
But eventually touching man himself. During this time of harm we see in chapter 12 and 14 two catagories of people who are being
persecuted - those who have the testimony of Jesus (or the faith of Jesus) and those who keep the commandments of God.

Revelation 12:17 - "And the dragon was angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed,
who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus."


Revelation 14:12 - "Here is the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus."

The preserved and sealed Isrealites comprise "those who keep the commandments of God."
The Christians who believe in Jesus comprise those who "have the testimony of Jesus" and have "the faith of Jesus."

Both are set aside by God and therefore both are called saints.
I used to think they were Christians only who keep God's commandments and believe in Jesus.
I changed my mind one day. And I see they are ONE in that they are saints unto God, but of two components - preserved Israelites and believers in Jesus.

Eventually, preserved ISraelites and those trying to keep the law of Moses are enlightened to see Christ the Son of God.
So the following vision of the unnumbered multitude is that of the church where the middle wall of partition is broken down.

Less likely, I think, is that the 144,000 are sealed so that when the last of them is killed the four angels know that it is time to harm the earth. Even less likely than this, that the 144,000 are ALREADY dead and are being sealed in death.
Correct. Faithful servants will be rewarded, and we too are those servants. This is a parable and so we cannot be sure what the reward is, but it will be great. Maybe we do get to reign over a city. But the 144,000 will be reigning over us.

This I like.
Also, for those that have to endure, they like the martyrs, have to obey.
Today, our responsibility is to reign in divine life. To reign in life over ourselves. (Romans 5:17)
By enjoying Christ we may learn to reign over the works of the flesh.
By calling on the Lord and being filled with the Spirit we may reign over the old man.

We may be faithful over a little - reign over our temper, our lust, our self indulgence, envy, anxiety, anger, worldliness, etc, etc,
Then at the judgment seat of Christ we may be granted to be over much, for we have been faitfhul to reign over little.

We also are TASTING the powers of the coming age (Hebrews 6;5). These abilities will be amplified for the governance of the earth.
Proverbs says a man who fails to rule his spirit is like a city with broken down walls. (Prov. 25:28)

So we may expect suprises. We may expect the last to be first and the first to be last.
We may expect how we treated our fellow believers to play a part. Were we strict towards ourselves yet merciful toward others?
And we may expect that many of the passages in the Bible about people being enabled by God to do mighty feats, like Samson, or Elijah,
were not simply miscellaneous oddities, but were related to the millennial kingdom co-riegning with Christ to come.

Who is rewarded is entirely in the hands of our wise God. And to what degree, is entirely in the hands of Christ.
We just should enjoy grace to reign in life through Jesus Christ over the little that He assigns us to overcome.
 
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oikonomia

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No. We can all be classed as saint for the fact that we give up our lives for Christ too. "It is no long I that lives, but Christ that lives in me."
I guess the question is, is there a difference between those that are beheaded for their testimony in Christ and those that live to the end of their life?
For this I would consider the heroes of the faith in Hebrews 11. You will see that God wants a testimony of His faithfulness in ALL KINDS of situations.

Even the junior highschool Christian, the Christian housewife, the Christian young woman on the job, the Christian elderly man with a bothersome neighbor, the Christian in jail, the Christian persecuted in an intolerent land . . . etc.

In ALL KINDS OF CIRCUMSTANCES God desires to prove Christ is the victorious grace.
So do expect some suprises.
And do expect that no one faithful to enjoy the Lord's grace under difficulty will feel they did so in vain.
 
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oikonomia

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The KJV translates the Greek word ARNEOMAI / DENY and one person that I know , translates it CONTRADICT or it can be translated by Reject , Refuse , or Disavow ,

The first use of ARNEOMAI is in the Greek PRESENT TENSE , MIDDLE or PASSIVE VOICE and in the INDICATIVE MOOD and is SINGULAR .

The second use of ARNEOMAI is the FUTURE TENSE and SINGULAR and I believe , that the FUTURE TENSE is pointing to the BEMA SEAT JUDGMENT .

There are rewards to be handed out and some will be SAVED and will SUFFER LOSS , 1 Cor 3:15 ..


And , believe what we TEACH , and WATER , but God was CAUSING the growth of our ministry .


What say you ??

dan p
Hi.
I do not fluently read or write Koine Greek.
Maybe someday.

Firstly, Jesus Christ is THE unique One who has overcome.
We can only overcome through Christ the Victor (John 16:33)

"Overcomer"
is not a word I might be able to easily produce in the New Testament.
However "He who overcomes" I can find about seven crucial times in the Revelation 2,3.
Also "More than conquerors" in Romans 8:31-39 vicinity I think is close to "overcomers,"

And eventually, in the end of Revelation all who are saved become overcomers inevitably. (Rev. 21:7)

I take it not to mean superspritual but to be normal.
To overcome is not to rise ABOVE the standard.
It is to rise TO the standard.

The Lord said even when we do all that He commanded we should have the attitude that we only did what we were expected to have done. (Luke 17:10).
Overcome - BE AT the standard the Lord expects not be ABOVE the standard.
Converse to overcoming, the NT does speak of Christians for whom some matter has become a "defeat" for them. (1 Cor. 6:7)

One entire book about this which I think is a classic is "The Normal Christian Life" by Watchman Nee.
The point being that it should be NORMAL to be overcoming through Christ's indwelling grace.
Defeat is abnormal given all the riches of grace in Christ available to us.

Not in any partiuclar order - Yes, some receive reward and are saved and some suffer loss and are saved. (1 Cor. 3:14,15)

I think the mot important response I would offer from my experience, is that we are often too hard on ourselves, because we are alone.
This matter of overcoming is a matter of help from others. Us to them and them to us.

God, I think, reserves some victories for those built up together in love.
For this reason small groups of two or three is a good practice.
Oneness enhances growth.
Isolation is more difficult.
Individualism is more difficult.

In other words, God's purppose is to BUILD the Body.
So to be given to the building of His Body even on small scale, He commands the blessing, life forevemore. See Psalm 133.

All throughout the Bible see reserving a remnant to push through to victory ON BEHALF of the more passive majority.
The little army of 300 under GIdeon is one of the best examples.

There is more.
Tell me more.

And here is a song I made up about those who overome the accuser in Revelation 12.
 
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1Tonne

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Isn't it so that when harm is released, the sealing mark upon them indicates they should be exempted from that harm?
Maybe. I used to look at it that way too. But I do take into consideration that it may mean that the people who are sealed are martyred.

Sorry. I probably don't have enough time to respond to all of this. But will read it and will keep it in mind. I do not discount that my view may be wrong.

Another thing that you may find interesting that ties in with my view is 1 Thes 4:13-18. I wrote a thread on it a long time ago and it has now gone into oblivion but here is the link. - It has a different view on the Rapture.

God Bless.
 
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