Who/what are the four horsemen of the apocalypse?

[jgr]

Paul specifically says that UNBELIEVING Jews, Jews who are enemies of the gospel, are believed by God for the sake of the Patriarchs.

As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs
Romans 11:28

To whom does the "election" refer?

Romans 11:5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Romans 11:7
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

1 Thessalonians 1:4
Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:


It is a clear reference to believers, the children of faith.

Unbelievers were and are enemies of the gospel.

Believers, i.e. the election, were and are beloved on account of the patriarchs, e.g. Abrahram, the father of the faithful.

 

[Truth7t7]

This is certainly not true. For example, there are promises of a Kingly Messiah ushering in a Messianic Age. Hasn't happened yet.

The New Covenant in Hebrews, like the New Covenant in Jeremiah, is NOT the same as the New Covenant in Christ. IOW the New Covenant in Hebrews and Jeremiah has not yet come to pass. It will happen at the end of time. This is why God can say of Israel's covenant that it is perpetual, that it is l'olam vaed, usually translated "forever" but literally meaning from one world until the next. As Jeremiah states, in the New Covenant everyone will automatically believe in God. No one will have to be taught right from wrong. Clearly these things are not yet true.

How is everyone gonna automatically believe in God?

How does a person partake in this New Covenant?

 

[jgr]

The prophecies regarding the Kingly Messiah are mostly in the OT, although there are some in Revelation such as Revelation 19:11-16.

Correct. And Christ is the Kingly Messiah who fulfilled them at His first coming.

Wonderful quote! But nothing in this verse says that the promises are all already met. It simply says that all promises find their fulfillment in Christ. It doesn't say when. We can assume past, present, and future.

The verse is rendered in present tense, which means it was true as of the time it was written. Thus Christ was the perfect and complete fulfillment as a result of His sacrifice at Calvary at His first coming.

There are many covenants, all running concurrently:

My Bible and yours are divided into two Covenants, the Old and the New. The New is the only Covenant, i.e. Will and Testament, now in force and effect. This is inherent in the definition of a Will and Testament, as we see in Hebrews:

Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Jeremiah's prophecy states that everyone would believe in God. Is this true at this time?

Jeremiahs prophecy states that everyone will know the law without having to be taught it. Is this true at this time?

A covenant is a bidirectional relationship. Each party has responsibilities. Ours are faith and obedience. When we fulfill ours, God fulfills His. He writes His law in our hearts, and teaches us individually through His Holy Spirit, fulfilling Jeremiah's prophecy. This is realized through Christ's completed work at Calvary.

 

[Revealing Times]

That's pretty much why the world will be amazed, and will believe his initial claim of being God, more likey claiming to have achieved God-hood.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Nope, that's just been the perception brother, the whole world WONDERS (ADMIRES) after the Beast, hes a great leader who has more than likely led a Global Economic BOOM via his "dark powers" On Dan. ch. 8 he solves riddles and conundrums. Its nothing more than Satan, the Dragon, giving him his power just like he gave Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome power. The Beast is alive again because Israel is alive, the world hates Israel, the Church is gone, no one is left to take Israels side. Notice Rev. 13:4 says the Worship the Dragon who gave power to the Beast also, but the humans are not specifically worshiping Satan of course, not most anyway, that is how God sees it when men promote Abortion, Homosexuality etc. etc. God sees them as paying HOMAGE unto the Wicked one, they have chosen his ways over God.

As per Rev. 17:8, that is Apollyon. He was over Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome then he was locked into the Bottomless Pit, he will be released at the 1st Woe.

Thus he WAS.............IS NOT..............YET IS.

The whole premise of the world worshiping the beast is because he is killed and comes back to life - validating to the world his (false) claim of being God. And the account of the person killed is because God brings strangers against him to kill him in Ezekiel 28:1-10 - for the person claiming to be God. And brought back to life in Isaiah 14:18-20.

Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Every Atheist you see thinks he is his OWN GOD Brother !! This man will be an Atheist. He will see MANKIND as Gods of themselves, thus HUMANISM is what he believes in, thus when he becomes the Leader by Conquering he will proclaim to be God, a God worthy in his mind to be Worshiped.

He is not coming back to life, that is one of the BEAST HEADS that suffers a Mortal Wound.

Doing Miracles doesn't mean he dies. Its the Mortal Wound of the Seven Headed Beast. Its figurative like much of Revelation brother.

Of couse, none of that is in the scripture.

Read Daniel 12, I am way ahead of you on this it seems if you don't know where its at.

 

[Douggg]

Nope, that's just been the perception brother, the whole world WONDERS (ADMIRES) after the Beast, hes a great leader who has more than likely led a Global Economic BOOM via his "dark powers"

It is not being a great leader. It is not leading to an Global Economic BOOM. They worship him because they think he is God in human form. That the person is killed and comes back to life is fundamental to entire aura of the beast.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Since you have misinterpreted the heads - from kings to kingdoms, you have missed out on that in Daniel 8:25, it says the person magnifies himself in his heart, and that in Ezekiel 28:1-10 God says the person sits in the middles of the seas (showing the peoples of the earth when he sits in the temple) his claim of being God because he has magnified himself in his heart. And that God has him killed for it.
_______________________________________________________________________________

I don't know where you are getting the beast causes a global economic boom, since the rider on the black horse shows a scarcity of the basics and there is starvation.

Revelation 6
5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Notice Rev. 13:4 says the Worship the Dragon who gave power to the Beast also, but the humans are not specifically worshiping Satan of course, not most anyway, that is how God sees it when men promote Abortion, Homosexuality etc. etc. God sees them as paying HOMAGE unto the Wicked one, they have chosen his ways over God.

The world worships Satan by worshiping the image of the slain and comeback alive man - who they will think has achieved God-hood. The AOD image will be incarnated by Satan. That's what it appears to come alive and speak.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Every Atheist you see thinks he is his OWN GOD Brother !!

Look up the definition of Atheist. Definition of ATHEIST

 

[Revealing Times]

It is not being a great leader. It is not leading to an Global Economic BOOM. They worship him because they think he is God in human form. That the person is killed and comes back to life is fundamental to entire aura of the beast.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

No the world doesn't actually think hes a God !! They are atheists, they believe all humans are their own God. Humanism, look it up sometime:

Humanism
1.any system or mode of thought or action in which human interests,values, and dignity predominate.

2. a variety of ethical theory and practice that emphasizes reason, scientific inquiry, and human fulfillment in the natural world and often rejects the importance of belief in God.

Worshiping this man as God is forced on all mankind. The bible tells you they will worship him as God or die, have you not read that brother?

Rev. 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Now some will see the Miracles and be deceived, but its not a death and resurrection. Most will worship him as God out of fear, of course. Many will chose death, we can see that by the number of humans killed. The "types of peoples" that will follow him IMHO, is the green types, the liberals who worship at the alter of humanism, they will gladly follow a man as God because they think man is God.

Since you have misinterpreted the heads - from kings to kingdoms, you have missed out on that in Daniel 8:25, it says the person magnifies himself in his heart, and that in Ezekiel 28:1-10 God says the person sits in the middles of the seas (showing the peoples of the earth when he sits in the temple) his claim of being God because he has magnified himself in his heart. And that God has him killed for it.

No one has stated he doesn't claim to be God and demand worship as God, I am pointing out that not all men on earth will believe hes a God. Do you think the Romans thought Nero was a God just because he proclaimed he was a God? You are conflating words and thus confusing the situation.

Rev. 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

To worship means to show reverence and adoration. I don't think men are worshiping Satan here even though that word is used, its misconstrued here IMHO. I see the abortionists and homosexuality advocates as "ADORING SATAN" via their actions, not actual worshiping him. By their actions many in this world show they ADORE EVIL, or love evil over God, thus its shown here as worship. (Adoration of evil)

Likewise when they "speak" on the beast here they are speaking about his power and strength, who is able to make war with him. He of course has many dark powers which he uses to do just the things I suggested. He gives the world a great economy, and he has the mental ability to solve complex problems like Israel vs. the Arabs, world wide economic conditions etc. etc many more things. All this is in Daniel chapter 8.

Dan. 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of (1)fierce countenance, and (2)understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24 And his (3)power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall (4)destroy wonderfully, and shall (5)prosper, and practise, and shall (6)destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And (7)through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall (8)magnify himself in his heart, and (9)by peace shall destroy many: he shall also (10)stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

1. Strong, vehement or harsh meas he will be a Tyrannical leader of course.
2. Puzzle, trick, conundrums, he solves unsolvable puzzles and conundrums so to speak
3. Satan places him in power, just as he offered Jesus all power. (Of course)
4. Destroys Wonderfully Means/surpasses expectations, he separates himself from other leaders.
5. Prosper and practice means he pushes forward his agenda and makes it work.
6. Of course he scatters the holy people(s). (Conquers Jerusalem)

7. Policy = Intelligence, success. Craft = Deceit, treachery or fraud. Prosper = to push forth. So through his intelligence he deceives many and pushes forth his Agenda which prospers.

8. Of course he enlarges his "estate in life" so to speak. He claims to be God.
9. Via Peace/Treaties he destroys many by deceit and treachery.
10. He then comes against Jesus and is destroyed.

The Heads are Kingdoms. They are changed in Rev. 17 or REDUCED to Kings who have fallen in order for everyone to understand the Last Kingdom will have ONE KING only, then will be defeated.

I don't know where you are getting the beast causes a global economic boom, since the rider on the black horse shows a scarcity of the basics and there is starvation.

Revelation 6
5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

I look a his whole life, hes only a Beast for 42 months, do you want to just look at those 42 months or hi whole life? You can't imagine who he might be by just looking at the last 42 months, and in his first year or so I image while Conquering the world things the economy will still be going strong and robust, WW2 brought America out of the depression after all did it not?

The point is the way he comes to power and gains peoples trust is by SOLVING CONUNDRUMS, SE ABOVE. He makes Europe to prosper and thus the whole world BEFORE he becomes the Beast. We need to talk about how the man gains this trust in order to understand him.

No German would have freely given Hitler any power in 1944, but in 1934 they thought he was the greatest leader ever. We need to be able to see and understand why he is given this power. Notice three of the Kings try to com against him and are plucked up, they understand to late what they have wrought it seems.

The world worships Satan by worshiping the image of the slain and comeback alive man - who they will think has achieved God-hood. The AOD image will be incarnated by Satan. That's what it appears to come alive and speak.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

The IMAGE is of a man, not Satan. NUFF SAID.

Look up the definition of Atheist. Definition of ATHEIST

I don't have to look it up. You fail at understanding Scriptures brother.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man...

They refuse to serve God but worship themselves as god.

 

[Open Heart]

Correct. And Christ is the Kingly Messiah who fulfilled them at His first coming.

This is not true. Christians admit that the Kingly Messiah prophecies will be fulfilled at the second coming when Christ arrives on a white horse and ushers in the Messianic age when he will rule on earth.

As to the rest of your post, I stand by what I have already said.

 

[Open Heart]

How is everyone gonna automatically believe in God?

How does a person partake in this New Covenant?

I don't know how it will happen. I only know it is promised.

 

[Open Heart]

To whom does the "election" refer?

Some say it refers to the Jews being the elect among all the nations of the earth to recieve God's Law, the Land, and his promises, being set apart to be a priestly people, a light to the nations as a people.

Some say it is their eternal salvation when they keep the Sinai covenant (they don't have to keep it perfectly, never did have to -- there were always instructions what to do if they faltered). After all, it says in the very next verse that "All Israel shall be saved." This is the interpretation I am inclined towards.

 

[Revealing Times]

Some say it refers to the Jews being the elect among all the nations of the earth to recieve God's Law, the Land, and his promises, being set apart to be a priestly people, a light to the nations as a people.

Some say it is their eternal salvation when they keep the Sinai covenant (they don't have to keep it perfectly, never did have to -- there were always instructions what to do if they faltered). After all, it says in the very next verse that "All Israel shall be saved." This is the interpretation I am inclined towards.

Israel repent and accept Jesus as their Messiah after the rapture but before the Abomination of Desolation or before the Anti-Christ conquers Jerusalem. So that blood is applied and thus makes them ELECTED to heaven right? Zechariaah tells us that.

Zechariaah 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened(BLOOD of Jesus) to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

On WHAT DAY? The day they repent/Accept Jesus as their Messiah/Savior.

Zechariaah 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

So IN THAT DAY that Israel repents they apply the blood and are thus the ELECTED !!

2/3 will die, only a 1/3 make it to the Wilderness abode, but ALL ISRAEL is saved, not every Jew per se, but Israel as a Nation is preserved.

 

[Open Heart]

Israel repent and accept Jesus as their Messiah after the rapture

The are the elect and beloved WHILE being enemies of the gospel. Romans 11:28

 

[Revealing Times]

The are the elect and beloved WHILE being enemies of the gospel. Romans 11:28

Verses have to be kept in context brother. Paul was speaking about what would happen unto Israel IF they came back unto FAITH or belief. That of course can only happen after the Church has been Raptured in full, before that only a few Jews are Messianic Jews thus Israel is blinded only IN PART not in full. Context is always important, but especially here.

Rommans 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved {not every Jew, but Israel as a Nation} as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

{{{So even though they rejected Christ, via the promise to Abraham, God will eventually bring them back into the fold, but they still have to accept Christ as their Messiah and apply the blood. Jesus told the Pharisees they were of their father the devil, so being a Jew doesn't mean you are of God per se. We all come to God in like manner. We have to apply the blood of Christ Jesus.}}}

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

{{{ This means the Father God sees them now (at that time) as enemies to the Gospel so He gave the mantel of the Gospel unto the Gentiles, but the father so loved Israel/Jewish peoples that He would not permanently forsake them, thus they will be a huge part of the election unto God, and Jesus will of course rule from Jerusalem for 1000 years. God will call them to repentance. }}}

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

When they BELIEVE IN JESUS, then God will welcome them back with open arms.

 

[jgr]

This is not true. Christians admit that the Kingly Messiah prophecies will be fulfilled at the second coming when Christ arrives on a white horse and ushers in the Messianic age when he will rule on earth.

Christ and Paul would disagree.

Luke 24
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures

Acts 13
29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

Who to believe?

Christ, who declared that He had fulfilled all about Himself, and Paul who reemphasized it?

Or those who claim that the Kingly Messiah prophecies will be fulfilled at the second coming when Christ arrives on a white horse and ushers in the Messianic age when he will rule on earth?

Easy decision.

 

[SMITTY7000]

If you wish us to read your post please write it in upper and lower case (I presume you know what that means?) and not all in bold, Thanks

DAVID,
SORRY YOU CAN`T READ THE UPPER CASE BUT THIS IS THE WAY I HAVE WRITTEN FOR MANY YEARS AND LIKE THE OLD DOG A NEW TRICK IS HARD TO LEARN. MY HAND WRITING IS HORRIBLE SO I DEVELOPED THIS IN SCHOOL. I HAVE WRITTEN MANY STUDIES AND HAVE ONLY YOUR COMMENT IN A NEGATIVE WAY WHICH IS ALL RIGHT WITH ME. I WOULD RATHER YOU COMMENT ON THE MEAT OF THE STUDY AND BACK YOUR COMMENTS UP WITH SCRIPTURE WHETHER POSITIVE OR NEGATIVE. I HAD THE INITIAL IMPRESSION THAT THIS WAS WHAT THIS SITE WAS ALL ABOUT.

 

[Open Heart]

Verses have to be kept in context brother. Paul was speaking about what would happen unto Israel IF they came back unto FAITH or belief.

That is sheer nonsense. YOu are clearly not even reading the verse. The verse is present tense, and is talking about Jews who are enemies of the gospel still being elect and beloved. Read it for yourself. Romans 11:28

 

[Open Heart]

Christ and Paul would disagree.

Luke 24
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures

Acts 13
29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

Who to believe?

Christ, who declared that He had fulfilled all about Himself, and Paul who reemphasized it?

Or those who claim that the Kingly Messiah prophecies will be fulfilled at the second coming when Christ arrives on a white horse and ushers in the Messianic age when he will rule on earth?

Easy decision.

You are misreading the texts you have quoted. "All" is referring to all the verses that apply to his first visit to earth. Not all the messianic prophecies.

I think you have a lot of chutzpah to think your own ideosyncratic opinion has more merit than the tried and true opinion of the gazillion Christian scholars down through the last 2000 years.

 

[Revealing Times]

That is sheer nonsense. YOu are clearly not even reading the verse. The verse is present tense, and is talking about Jews who are enemies of the gospel still being elect and beloved. Read it for yourself. Romans 11:28

You are misreading the texts you have quoted. "All" is referring to all the verses that apply to his first visit to earth. Not all the messianic prophecies.

I think you have a lot of chutzpah to think your own ideosyncratic opinion has more merit than the tried and true opinion of the gazillion Christian scholars down through the last 2000 years.

I have been a preacher 30 years. I know the word of God sir.

 

[jgr]

You are misreading the texts you have quoted. "All" is referring to all the verses that apply to his first visit to earth. Not all the messianic prophecies.

How does one misread a quote? If you disagree, cite the contravening Scripture.

I think you have a lot of chutzpah to think your own ideosyncratic opinion has more merit than the tried and true opinion of the gazillion Christian scholars down through the last 2000 years.

Christ and Paul have all the chutzpah. I only quote them.

If you disagree, cite the contravening Scripture and scholars.

 

[David Kent]

This is not true. Christians admit that the Kingly Messiah prophecies will be fulfilled at the second coming when Christ arrives on a white horse and ushers in the Messianic age when he will rule on earth.

Christ came as Messiah at his first coming, Thousands of Jews believed on him then, thousands do today.

 

[Open Heart]

Christ came as Messiah at his first coming, Thousands of Jews believed on him then, thousands do today.

I agree with you.

But you are missing the point, which is that there are two Messianic comings, each with an entirely different flavor, and different prophecies. In the first coming, the Messiah is the suffering servant come to die for our sins; he arrives in Jerusalem on a donkey. In the second coming, the Messiah arrives on a white horse out of the heavens, a magestic king, ushering in the Messianic age where he will rule the earth and there will be world peace, etc.

Jews do not recognize that there are two comings, they do not recognize a suffering servant messiah that will die for our sins. They only recognize the verses regarding the Kingly Messiah that will usher in the Messianic era of world peace.

I know Jews who are intermarried with Christians. They have relaxed kind of detente where they say, "When the Messiah comes, we'll just ask him if he's ever come before. If he says yes, you'll convert. If he says no, I'll convert.".