Who were the "them" in Luke 23:34 when Jesus prayed "farther forgive them for they know not what they do"?

[Antonio39]

He was interceding on behalf of Israel regarding its National judgment (Lk.21:23), for denying Him as the Messiah and giving Him up for death; Lk.23:18-34 is giving the account of when the people of Israel, along with their leaders where before Pilate when he was determined to let the Lord go, but they "denied the holy and just one, and desired a murder to be granted unto you"(Acts.3:13-14). Saying "let his blood be upon us and our children" (Mt.27:25).

In the verses preceding the Lord's prayer to the Father, He is being led to the cross, and a great company followed and began to cry, but the Lord said to them "daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. For the days are coming, in which they shall say blessed are they that are barren.... shall begin to say let the mountains fall on us..." (Lk.23.20-31). This is the same language when He spoke of the national judgment of the tribulation, and the day of the Lord's judgments mentioned in Revelation during the opening of the seals (Rev.6:14-17; Mt.24:19-22).

During the gospels, the Kingdom was at hand, but in the early Acts (period) the Kingdom is being offered (due to the Lord's intercession to forgive them), "And now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance ("for they know not what they do"), as also did your rulers. But what God foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ would suffer, he thus fulfilled. Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out, that the times of refreshing may come from the presence of the lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you (Christ would have returned if they repented, and restored the Kingdom to Israel), Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all things...here their national forgiveness is being offered, to receive their covenanted kingdom promises (Acts.3:17-21,24-26; cp.1:6). But we see the rejection continue because the leaders of the nation interrupt the offer (Acts.4:1-3).

Christ said during His earthly ministry that to speak a word against him would be forgiven, but blasphemy against the holy spirit would not be forgiven, and then speaks about how they would be persecuted and brought before leaders and synagogues (Lk.12:8-12; cp.23:35). We see this fulfilled in Acts with Stephen who was filled with the holy spirit, which the leaders resisted and then continue to stone him (Acts.6:5,9-12,51,54-60). Now the judgment of the tribulation was set to come, the time of Jacobs trouble (Mt.24.21; Jer.30.7). This is seen in Stephen's vision of the Lord "standing at the right hand of God", whereas in all other places, He is said to be "sitting at the right hand", but not in the book Revelation, where He is said to be standing before He opens the seals of judgment (Rev.5:6). Similar language is also used in the O.T "Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations" (Ps.82:6).

 

[oikonomia]

He was interceding on behalf of Israel regarding its National judgment (Lk.21:23), for denying Him as the Messiah and giving Him up for death; Lk.23:18-34 is giving the account of when the people of Israel, along with their leaders where before Pilate when he was determined to let the Lord go, but they "denied the holy and just one, and desired a murder to be granted unto you"(Acts.3:13-14). Saying "let his blood be upon us and our children" (Mt.27:25).

I prefer to take it as a petition for mankind as a whole.
Luke's Gospel is really showing the open door of eternal redemption to all mankind.

My present belief is that this prayer was the real time fulfilment of prophecy.
This is like the real time fulfillment of prophecy that the promise of His coming was being fulfilled in their hearing in (Luke 4:18-21).

God would be unrighteous to forgive man unless Christ allowed Himself to be the sin offering.
The righteous requirement for judgement against sin must be carried out.

I think that in real time the answer to Christ's mighty petition was that the wrath of God upon the sins of all mankind
fell upon the Lord Jesus. And if we believe into Him, there is eternal forgiveness, eternal redemption and eternal reconciliation to God.

I imagine that if the Father spoke in response to Christ's prayer to forgive them for they did not know what they are doing, would be like -
"Okay, My beloved Son. And Your petition for them I will forgive all who believe in You. As the righteous judgment of sin falls upon You that it may not fall on them, I accept Yourself as the sin offering for their propitiation. But they must believe into You for this substitution to take place on their behalf."

I think this agrees with Isaiah 53:10.

"But Jehovah was pleased to crush Him, to afflict Him with grief.
When Hre makes Himself an offering for sin . . . " (Isaish 53:10a)

And again in verse 12.

" . . . Because He poured out His life unto death and was numbered with the transgressiors,
Yet He alone bore the sin of many and interceded for the transgressors." (v.12)

 

[oikonomia]

In the verses preceding the Lord's prayer to the Father, He is being led to the cross, and a great company followed and began to cry, but the Lord said to them "daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. For the days are coming, in which they shall say blessed are they that are barren.... shall begin to say let the mountains fall on us..." (Lk.23.20-31). This is the same language when He spoke of the national judgment of the tribulation, and the day of the Lord's judgments mentioned in Revelation during the opening of the seals (Rev.6:14-17; Mt.24:19-22).

The opening of the sixth seal reveal God's preparation to judge not only Israel but the whole world.

"And the kings of the earth and the great men and the generals and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains; And they say to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits upon the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb; For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?" (Rev. 6:15-17)

This reaction should mean that of the world. It is more than a Israel national expectation but a world wide one spanning across all social stratums.
"And the kings of the earth" would mean those kings also of other nations. The sixth seal is the shaking of the cosmos signaling that the great tribulation will start soon.

 

[Antonio39]

The opening of the sixth seal reveal God's preparation to judge not only Israel but the whole world.

"And the kings of the earth and the great men and the generals and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains; And they say to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits upon the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb; For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?" (Rev. 6:15-17)

This reaction should mean that of the world. It is more than a Israel national expectation but a world wide one spanning across all social stratums.
"And the kings of the earth" would mean those kings also of other nations. The sixth seal is the shaking if the cosmos signaling that the great tribulation will start soon.

Lk.21:23; cp 23:29

 

[oikonomia]

Lk.21:23; cp 23:29

You have a good point in that Luke 23:29 is specific to the "Daughters of Jerusalem." (v.28)
So I do not deny for a moment that specific warnings to Israel are given by the Lord Jesus, Israel's Messiah.

Luke 21:23 and Revelation 1:7 are also pretty land of Israel specific.
The "tribes of the land" is how the RcV translates Rev. 1:7 making it specific to the twelve tribes of the land of Israel.

"Behold, He comes with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the land will mourn over Him. Yes, amen. " (Rev. 1:7, Recovery Version) (cp Zechariah 12:10)

But Revelation 6:12-17 reminds of Psalm 2 about the all the nations reacting to Christ closing the age to usher in the next - the millennial kingdom age.

"Ask of Me, And I will give you the nations as Your inheritance and the limits of the earth as Your possession . . .
Now therefore, O kings, be prudent;
Take admonition, O judges of the earth. Serve Jehovah with fear, . . . Kiss the Son lest He be angry and you perish from the way;
For His anger may suddenly be kindled,
Blessed are all those who take refuge in Him." (Psa. 2:8,10-12)

 

[IoanC]

They could only be God's enemies. I mean how can God forgive a disobedient creature for murdering Him? God does love everybody and has the best of wishes towards them, but in some cases sin is simply outrageous. Maybe after they repent and do something important for God, they could be forgiven. Maybe! God is no one's fool.

 

[oikonomia]

They could only be God's enemies.

But we all were enemies.
While sinners were enemies to God Christ died for them.

"For if we, being enemies, were reconcilced to God through the death of His Son, much more we will be saved in His life, having been recnciled." (Rom. 5:10)

Without exception all were enemies of God when He died for them.

I mean how can God forgive a disobedient creature for murdering Him?

He can forgive them and forget their trespasses because judgment upon them has been accomplished in Christ on His cross.
If they believe in Him the dept has been paid.
If they believe in Him the offenses is not overlooked or swept under the rug. The dept is PAID IN FULL.

The saved person is a person whose dept has been paid.
On Calvary, on the cross of Jesus, the dept of sin to then former enemy of God, has been paid.

This was the predicted effect of the new covenant God promised in the Old Testament book of Jeremiah.

"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days . . . for I will forgive their iniquity,
and there sin I will remember no more." (See Jeremiah 31:33)

And again when Jesus enacted this covenant in His redeeming blood, He recounts that this is for the forgiveness of sins.

"For this is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for the foregiveness of sins." (Matt. 26:28)

God does love everybody and has the best of wishes towards them, but in some cases sin is simply outrageous. Maybe after they repent and do something important for God, they could be forgiven. Maybe! God is no one's fool.

You should understand better the nature of eternal redemption.
Whether God likes you or doesn't like you, He is BOUND by His righteoness to FORGIVE you if you believe in Christ.
This is not of our works that we can be justified. It is because of the blood of Christ cleanses us from every sin.

He is faithful and RIGHTEOUS to forgive us our sins who believe in Christ (1 John 3:9).
"If we confess out sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Here it does not say faithful and loving, or faithful and kind, or faithful and merciful. Of course God IS loving, kind, and merciful. But here the emphasis is on His RIGHTEOUSNESS. His procedure is RIGHT. He must be true to His righteous nature and forgive the one who believes into Christ.

Please notice that God is bound by His own RIGHTEOUSNESS that He MUST forgive us and redeem us eternally, who have believed in Christ.
Righeousness is the foundation of His throne. If God would not forgive us with an eternal redemption after we believe into Christ confessing our sins, His throne would be shaken. He would involved Himself in unrigheousness which is impossible for Him.

This is the power of the Gospel and the assurance of our eternal redemption.
He faithful and RIGHTEOUS to forgive us.

 

[Antonio39]

You have a good point in that Luke 23:29 is specific to the "Daughters of Jerusalem." (v.28)
So I do not deny for a moment that specific warnings to Israel are given by the Lord Jesus, Israel's Messiah.

Luke 21:23 and Revelation 1:7 are also pretty land of Israel specific.
The "tribes of the land" is how the RcV translates Rev. 1:7 making it specific to the twelve tribes of the land of Israel.

"Behold, He comes with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the land will mourn over Him. Yes, amen. " (Rev. 1:7, Recovery Version) (cp Zechariah 12:10)

But Revelation 6:12-17 reminds of Psalm 2 about the all the nations reacting to Christ closing the age to usher in the next - the millennial kingdom age.

"Ask of Me, And I will give you the nations as Your inheritance and the limits of the earth as Your possession . . .
Now therefore, O kings, be prudent;
Take admonition, O judges of the earth. Serve Jehovah with fear, . . . Kiss the Son lest He be angry and you perish from the way;
For His anger may suddenly be kindled,
Blessed are all those who take refuge in Him." (Psa. 2:8,10-12)

The tribulation and the judgments of the Day of the Lord are closely associated, the tribulation is mostly concerned with Israels national judgment, where the Day of the Lord has to do with the Judgment of the beast kingdoms and the establishment of Gods kingdom. The whole world will be affected by both.

 

[oikonomia]

The tribulation and the judgments of the Day of the Lord are closely associated, the tribulation is mostly concerned with Israels national judgment, where the Day of the Lord has to do with the Judgment of the beast kingdoms and the establishment of Gods kingdom. The whole world will be affected by both.

Would you agree that "the time of Jacob's trouble" is Daniel's term and his prophecy is focused on Israel?

Then we come to the New Testament term "great tribulation" which pertains to Israel and all the world.
How do you like that scheme?

 

[IoanC]

But we all were enemies.
While sinners were enemies to God Christ died for them.

"For if we, being enemies, were reconcilced to God through the death of His Son, much more we will be saved in His life, having been recnciled." (Rom. 5:10)

Without exception all were enemies of God when He died for them.


He can forgive them and forget their trespasses because judgment upon them has been accomplished in Christ on His cross.
If they believe in Him the dept has been paid.
If they believe in Him the offenses is not overlooked or swept under the rug. The dept is PAID IN FULL.

The saved person is a person whose dept has been paid.
On Calvary, on the cross of Jesus, the dept of sin to then former enemy of God, has been paid.

This was the predicted effect of the new covenant God promised in the Old Testament book of Jeremiah.

"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days . . . for I will forgive their iniquity,
and there sin I will remember no more." (See Jeremiah 31:33)

And again when Jesus enacted this covenant in His redeeming blood, He recounts that this is for the forgiveness of sins.

"For this is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for the foregiveness of sins." (Matt. 26:28)



You should understand better the nature of eternal redemption.
Whether God likes you or doesn't like you, He is BOUND by His righteoness to FORGIVE you if you believe in Christ.
This is not of our works that we can be justified. It is because of the blood of Christ cleanses us from every sin.

He is faithful and RIGHTEOUS to forgive us our sins who believe in Christ (1 John 3:9).
"If we confess out sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Here it does not say faithful and loving, or faithful and kind, or faithful and merciful. Of course God IS loving, kind, and merciful. But here the emphasis is on His RIGHTEOUSNESS. His procedure is RIGHT. He must be true to His righteous nature and forgive the one who believes into Christ.

Please notice that God is bound by His own RIGHTEOUSNESS that He MUST forgive us and redeem us eternally, who have believed in Christ.
Righeousness is the foundation of His throne. If God would not forgive us with an eternal redemption after we believe into Christ confessing our sins, His throne would be shaken. He would involved Himself in unrigheousness which is impossible for Him.

This is the power of the Gospel and the assurance of our eternal redemption.
He faithful and RIGHTEOUS to forgive us.

However, there must be sincere repentance before being forgiven by God. Sure, repentance is also a gift from God, not our own effort. God, indeed, has forgiven everybody of all sins, but if one does not repent and purifies oneself, one cannot accept that forgiveness.

 

[Antonio39]

Would you agree that "the time of Jacob's trouble" is Daniel's term and his prophecy is focused on Israel?

Then we come to the New Testament term "great tribulation" which pertains to Israel and all the world.
How do you like that scheme?

The term the "time of Jacobs trouble" comes from (Jer. 30:7). I have never really seen the scripture teach the different between the tribulation and the great tribulation.

Would you agree that "the time of Jacob's trouble" is Daniel's term and his prophecy is focused on Israel?

Then we come to the New Testament term "great tribulation" which pertains to Israel and all the world.
How do you like that scheme?

 

[oikonomia]

The term the "time of Jacobs trouble" comes from (Jer. 30:7). I have never really seen the scripture teach the different between the tribulation and the great tribulation.

I don't think I said there was a difference between those two terms.
Thanks for informing me that it is in Jeremiah "Jacob's trouble" I heard.

 

[Antonio39]

I don't think I said there was a difference between those two terms.
Thanks for informing me that it is in Jeremiah "Jacob's trouble" I heard.

ok I think I miss understood, but there is a lot of studying that has to be done, so when do you think God formed the body of Christ? And check out my post on "the revelation of the mystery" tell my what you think.

 

[oikonomia]

ok I think I miss understood, but there is a lot of studying that has to be done, so when do you think God formed the body of Christ? And check out my post on "the revelation of the mystery" tell my what you think.

We can come back to tribulation, great or otherwise. Sometimes just tribulation is mentioned not specific to the three and one half years of that great tribulation. And at least one mention of "great tribulation" in Revelation I believe pertains to the entire history of man on the earth.

The Body of Christ must that entity which cpntains the life of Christ.
Because the life of Christ, Christ Himself, is imparted into a group of people that makes His Body come into existence.

Christ breathed His life into His disciples in the day of His resurrection.
On the day He rose from the dead, He breathed Himself into the first disciples in John 20.

That should be the time Christ in His resurrection form as the life giving Spirit entered into people.
"the last Adam became a life givinfg Spirit" (1 cor. 15:45)

At this moment when Christ as the divine life giving Spirit was dispensed into those people, the church, which is the Body of Christ, came into existence.

"When therefore it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and while the doors were shut where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst and said to them, Peace be to you. And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. The disciples therefore rejoiced at seeing the Lord. Then Jesus said to them again, Peace be to you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you. And when He had said this, He breathed into them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit." (John 20:19-22)

I do not say the Body was fully built then. I say the Body came into existence on that day of His resurrection.
Praise God that we who have believed into Christ to receive Him are members of His mystical Body.

When do you believe the Body of Christ came into existence?

 

[Antonio39]

We can come back to tribulation, great or otherwise. Sometimes just tribulation is mentioned not specific to the three and one half years of that great tribulation. And at least one mention of "great tribulation" in Revelation I believe pertains to the entire history of man on the earth.

The Body of Christ must that entity which cpntains the life of Christ.
Because the life of Christ, Christ Himself, is imparted into a group of people that makes His Body come into existence.

Christ breathed His life into His disciples in the day of His resurrection.
On the day He rose from the dead, He breathed Himself into the first disciples in John 20.

That should be the time Christ in His resurrection form as the life giving Spirit entered into people.
"the last Adam became a life givinfg Spirit" (1 cor. 15:45)

At this moment when Christ as the divine life giving Spirit was dispensed into those people, the church, which is the Body of Christ, came into existence.

"When therefore it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and while the doors were shut where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst and said to them, Peace be to you. And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. The disciples therefore rejoiced at seeing the Lord. Then Jesus said to them again, Peace be to you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you. And when He had said this, He breathed into them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit." (John 20:19-22)

I do not say the Body was fully built then. I say the Body came into existence on that day of His resurrection.
Praise God that we who have believed into Christ to receive Him are members of His mystical Body.

When do you believe the Body of Christ came into existence?

well, when is the term first used in regard to a called-out company, that's a good place to start right?

 

[oikonomia]

well, when is the term first used in regard to a called-out company, that's a good place to start right?

Since the epistles of Paul are the earliest written documents in the New Testament, I would probably say "body" as
Christ's Body is first mentioned in one of Paul's letters. In fact I think only Paul mentions the body as another term for the church.

"the church, which is His Body," (See Ephesians 1:22,23 RcV)

My Recovery Version study notes have the books of Ephesians and Colossians written approximately A.D. 64.
Romans is estimated to have been written in A.D. 60. But First Corinthians it estimates was written in A.D. 59.
So my assumption would be that the earliest written mention of the Body of Christ would be in First Corinthians.

I would submit this passage as the earliest teaching of "one body" as a definition of the church. Here "one Body" means the corporate Christ - "one body, so also is the Christ."

"For even as the body is one and has many members, yet all the members of the body, being many, are one body, so also is the Christ. For also in one Spirit we were all baptized into one Body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and were all given to drink one Spirit." (1 Cor. 12:12-13)

Chapter 11 has a reference to the body pertaining to the one bread at the Lord's table which arguably could indicate the mystical Body of Christ (as well as Christ's physical body symbolized in the broken bread). But the 12th chapter is, I think, clearer.

Would you suggest another earlier mention?

 

[Antonio39]

Since the epistles of Paul are the earliest written documents in the New Testament, I would probably say "body" as
Christ's Body is first mentioned in one of Paul's letters. In fact I think only Paul mentions the body as another term for the church.

"the church, which is His Body," (See Ephesians 1:22,23 RcV)

My Recovery Version study notes have the books of Ephesians and Colossians written approximately A.D. 64.
Romans is estimated to have been written in A.D. 60. But First Corinthians it estimates was written in A.D. 59.
So my assumption would be that the earliest written mention of the Body of Christ would be in First Corinthians.

I would submit this passage as the earliest teaching of "one body" as a definition of the church. Here "one Body" means the corporate Christ - "one body, so also is the Christ."

"For even as the body is one and has many members, yet all the members of the body, being many, are one body, so also is the Christ. For also in one Spirit we were all baptized into one Body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and were all given to drink one Spirit." (1 Cor. 12:12-13)

Chapter 11 has a reference to the body pertaining to the one bread at the Lord's table which arguably could indicate the mystical Body of Christ (as well as Christ's physical body symbolized in the broken bread). But the 12th chapter is, I think, clearer.

Would you suggest another earlier mention?

Well good job and you are making some good notes about Paul's only use of the term, but we will have to look at these terms closer, the first is if you read 1Cor. 12 the whole thing about the body, and Rom.12:4-5, then read the scriptures in Eph. and Col. mention of Body and see if you notice a difference with the descriptions, don't goggle it, see if you notice a difference.

 

[oikonomia]

Well good job and you are making some good notes about Paul's only use of the term, but we will have to look at these terms closer, the first is if you read 1Cor. 12 the whole thing about the body, and Rom.12:4-5, then read the scriptures in Eph. and Col. mention of Body and see if you notice a difference with the descriptions, don't goggle it, see if you notice a difference.

I am interested in seeing what point you have.
I mean, I could write about this aspect of the church many things.

So, the point you would like to discuss, is what now ?

In the meantime, here is a song I wrote for memorizing Colossians 2:16-19 on the Body (for anyone interested).