LDS Who was the first God

[St_Worm2]

There is only one God that has ever existed and will ever exist for this earth and the heavens around this earth. No other "Gods" have ever existed, and that no new "Gods" will ever be formed, as Isaiah says, that has to do with this heavens and this earth. Only one God do we worship.

Hi again Peter1000, thank you for confirming (albeit in a very roundabout way) that LDS believe in the existence of multiple "Gods". So what you are saying is that LDS here on this planet have their own "God" (the one that you worship), and LDS on other planets somewhere else in the universe have their own personal "Gods" as well, (anywhere/everywhere in the universe) yes? One God for each inhabited planet so to speak?

LDS also teach that "God" started out much like us, as a man, and only later ~became~ a "God", correct?

You also believe (or at least hope, yes?) that this same wondrous fate awaits you, that you will become another one of the many "Gods" out there with your own planet and thereby your own people to worship you, yes?

Question, since this is what your chosen faith teaches, and therefore, what you must fully embrace as being true, then why the subterfuge? Quite frankly, if I was a Mormon who believed that all faithful Mormons were going to become "Gods" someday, as well as have their own planet full of people to worship them, I think I'd be using that as a selling point for the faith, not doing my best to conceal it

Thanks!

--David
p.s. - just to be clear, the Bible teaches us that there is ~one~ God of all/over all (not just of a single planet or solar system or galaxy, etc.) who spoke the entire universe (space/time), and everything contained therein, into existence ex nihilo .. cf John 1:1-3; Hebrews 11:3. So, from the Biblical perspective, if there really are other planets out there that are populated with people like ours is, then He, the God of Jacob who we Christians worship here, is their God too.

The Bible also teaches us that God has ALWAYS existed in His present form, that He is, "from everlasting", that He was always/is/always will be God, IOW, that He was never a man who later ~became~ a god somehow .. Psalm 90:2; Hebrews 13:8.

 

[Rescued One]

There is only one God that has ever existed and will ever exist for this earth and the heavens around this earth. No other "Gods" have ever existed, and that no new "Gods" will ever be formed, as Isaiah says, that has to do with this heavens and this earth. Only one God do we worship.

Paul is saying the same thing as I am saying:
1 Corinthians 8:5-6 King James Version (KJV)
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Paul knew there were gods many and lords many, 'but to us' there is but one God. That is exactly our position.

The missionaries told me that Jesus is the God of this earth. You people say Jesus is Jehovah.

My Bible says:

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[Peter1000]

Paul was very clear, for us there is BUT ONE GOD... Now, are you going to disagree with Paul?

How about here?
Romans 3:30 New King James Version (NKJV)
there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

How about disagreeing with God himself?
Isaiah 44:8 New King James Version (NKJV)

Is there a God besides Me? "there is no other Rock;
I know not one.’ ”

Your error is that you don't take time to understand the languages and their usage...

I do not disagree with any of these scriptures.

 

[Peter1000]

Jesus is him...

Jesus is God the Son, God the Father is a different Person than Jesus. Right?

If Jesus is him, then him was also crucified and died on the cross. Is that what you believe?

 

[Peter1000]

Hi again Peter1000, thank you for confirming (albeit in a very roundabout way) that LDS believe in the existence of multiple "Gods". So what you are saying is that LDS here on this planet have their own "God" (the one that you worship), and LDS on other planets somewhere else in the universe have their own personal "Gods" as well, (anywhere/everywhere in the universe) yes? One God for each inhabited planet so to speak?

LDS also teach that "God" started out much like us, as a man, and only later ~became~ a "God", correct?

You also believe (or at least hope, yes?) that this same wondrous fate awaits you, that you will become another one of the many "Gods" out there with your own planet and thereby your own people to worship you, yes?

Question, since this is what your chosen faith teaches, and therefore, what you must fully embrace as being true, then why the subterfuge? Quite frankly, if I was a Mormon who believed that all faithful Mormons were going to become "Gods" someday, as well as have their own planet full of people to worship them, I think I'd be using that as a selling point for the faith, not doing my best to conceal it

Thanks!

--David
p.s. - just to be clear, the Bible teaches us that there is ~one~ God of all/over all (not just of a single planet or solar system or galaxy, etc.) who spoke the entire universe (space/time), and everything contained therein, into existence ex nihilo .. cf John 1:1-3; Hebrews 11:3. So, from the Biblical perspective, if there really are other planets out there that are populated with people like ours is, then He, the God of Jacob who we Christians worship here, is their God too.

The Bible also teaches us that God has ALWAYS existed in His present form, that He is, "from everlasting", that He was always/is/always will be God, IOW, that He was never a man who later ~became~ a god somehow .. Psalm 90:2; Hebrews 13:8.

It is a selling point. What do you think the #1 reason people join the church. It is because their families can be together for all eternity, and they can be engaged in the work of God the Father. And his work is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

I want to be engaged in that same work. That is the big picture.

BTW, God is not the creator of this 1 planet that he oversees. He is God of numberless earths, just like ours. We don't know how many.

 

[St_Worm2]

God is not the creator of this 1 planet that he oversees. He is God of numberless earths, just like ours. We don't know how many.

Hi again Peter1000, but He is not the Creator of the entire universe as we Christians believe that God is, right?

In fact, if memory serves, the Mormon God is not a "Creator" at all, because you guys believe that the universe, as well, all that it contains .. e.g. energy, matter (as well as our very spirits or souls) are UN-created, that all of it, not just God, has been in existence from everlasting. So the Mormon God is actually a Molder or Designer or Matter Rearranger of sorts, not an actual "Creator", yes?

Thanks!

--David

 

[Peter1000]

Hi again Peter1000, but He is not the Creator of the entire universe as we Christians believe that God is, right?

In fact, if memory serves, the Mormon God is not a "Creator" at all, because you guys believe that the universe, as well, all that it contains .. e.g. energy, matter (as well as our very spirits or souls) are UN-created, that all of it, not just God, has been in existence from everlasting. So the Mormon God is actually a Molder or Designer or Matter Rearranger of sorts, not an actual "Creator", yes?

Thanks!

--David

Call it what you will, but God did not create things out of nothing. Did Jesus ever create something out of nothing? No.

A designer or molder or framer or matter rearranger, or maker, is a creator, yes. He creates from material that exists the most beautiful planets and stars, and plants, and animals, and man, etc.

 

[Peter1000]

The missionaries told me that Jesus is the God of this earth. You people say Jesus is Jehovah.

My Bible says:

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Do you not think that Jesus was Jehovah, the God of the OT?

 

[Rescued One]

Do you not think that Jesus was Jehovah, the God of the OT?

That is off-topic. The god of this world leads people astray. I wasn't talking about the Shepherd of the sheep!

ATTENTION, EVERYONE: The early Mormon leaders taught that Jehovah was the Father.

https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/044-36-44.pdf

 

[Peter1000]

That is off-topic. The god of this world leads people astray. I wasn't talking about the Shepherd of the sheep!

ATTENTION, EVERYONE: The early Mormon leaders taught that Jehovah was the Father.

https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/044-36-44.pdf

Silly person, Jehovah is the Father in certain ways. He is the Father of all mortals, being their creator. He is the Father of his church that he set up in his ministry. He is the Father of all adopted sons and daughter who believe in him and keep his commandments and endure to the end and by his grace allows them into his kingdom.

 

[Yodas_Prodigy1]

Jesus is God the Son, God the Father is a different Person than Jesus. Right?

If Jesus is him, then him was also crucified and died on the cross. Is that what you believe?

Jesus is God... The Father is God... The Holy Spirit is God... Three persons, one God...

 

[Yodas_Prodigy1]

I do not disagree with any of these scriptures.

Then, you agree there is only one all powerful - God. No other God anywhere...

 

[Peter1000]

Jesus is God... The Father is God... The Holy Spirit is God... Three persons, one God...

Since the 3 are 1, then all 3 came to earth in Mary's baby?
Since the 3 are 1, then all 3 were crucified on the cross?
Since the 3 are 1, then all 3 were resurrected and still live as 1 God?

 

[Peter1000]

Then, you agree there is only one all powerful - God. No other God anywhere...

No, I agree there is only 1 all powerful God that we worship. Like Paul says "there are gods many and lords many" but for us there is but 2 true God that we worship.

IOW there are other gods, but I know them not, and our God is the only God that I have to do with. And I will be subordinate to him for all eternity, although like Jesus I many become like God, and do the things that he does.

Do you not know that I am an heir and a joint-heir with Jesus, of all that the Father has. What all does the Father have. I can have it as an heir. Think about that. It does expand the mind a bit.

 

[Yodas_Prodigy1]

Since the 3 are 1, then all 3 came to earth in Mary's baby?
Since the 3 are 1, then all 3 were crucified on the cross?
Since the 3 are 1, then all 3 were resurrected and still live as 1 God?

19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

Your fallen mind is coming up with fantasies...

 

[Yodas_Prodigy1]

No, I agree there is only 1 all powerful God that we worship. Like Paul says "there are gods many and lords many" but for us there is but 2 true God that we worship.

IOW there are other gods, but I know them not, and our God is the only God that I have to do with. And I will be subordinate to him for all eternity, although like Jesus I many become like God, and do the things that he does.

Do you not know that I am an heir and a joint-heir with Jesus, of all that the Father has. What all does the Father have. I can have it as an heir. Think about that. It does expand the mind a bit.

So you disagree with God himself...

Isaiah 44:8 New King James Version (NKJV)

Is there a God besides Me? "there is no other Rock;
I know not one.’ ”

 

[St_Worm2]

Do you not think that Jesus was Jehovah, the God of the OT?

Hi Peter1000, Jesus is not God the Father, He is God the Son, but He, like both the Father and the Holy Spirit ~is~ YHWH/Jehovah. The Biblical mystery of the Trinity/Godhead is that there is one God who exists from everlasting as three Persons. We baptize in God's Name (as I know you know), and His (singular) "Name" is, "the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" .. Matthew 28:19.

As for your question to Phoebe Ann, I believe that the physical appearances of YHWH in the OT were made by the preincarnate Jesus, who is "God" the Son, not by God the Father. St. John, for example, indicates (in John 12:41) that it was Jesus who was sitting on the throne in Isaiah 6:1-7, and I believe as well that the finger that wrote in the dust before the angry mob in John 8:8 belonged to the very same hand that wrote the 10 Commandments on two tablets of stone atop Mt. Sinai.

The NT tells us emphatically that, 1. "God is spirit" .. John 4:24, and that 2. "no one has seen God at any time" .. e.g. John 1:18; 1 John 4:12, which always seemed puzzling to me (to say the least) because of all of the physical appears that God made throughout the OT (as well throughout the NT, of course). It was only after I began to understand who St. John was actually referring to in John 12:41 that I began to understand the truth of John 1:18/1 John 4:12, and Who those verses were actually referring to. God the Father is spirit only, God the Son is clearly not.

I admit that this is as much conjecture on my part as it is Biblical fact, but it is what I have come to believe (or should I say, have come to "carefully" believe, as I try to never close my mind to such things, especially when God is in view and the evidence for what I believe is not overwhelming, which seems to be the case here).

--David

Exodus 3
14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel,
‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”​

John 8
57 The Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM.”
59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.​

.

 

[Rescued One]

Silly person, Jehovah is the Father in certain ways. He is the Father of all mortals, being their creator. He is the Father of his church that he set up in his ministry. He is the Father of all adopted sons and daughter who believe in him and keep his commandments and endure to the end and by his grace allows them into his kingdom.

Look, you are rude and condescending. What happened to "show your good works?" In one post, you say, "When you read Ephesians 1:3-5 there is no reasonable person that can say we were not preexistent."
... Now you call me "Silly person." Grow up!

 

[St_Worm2]

Since the 3 are 1, then all 3 came to earth in Mary's baby?
Since the 3 are 1, then all 3 were crucified on the cross?
Since the 3 are 1, then all 3 were resurrected and still live as 1 God?

Hi again Peter1000, the Bible teaches us that there is one God who exists as three Persons so, technically speaking anyway, the 1 is 3, not the other way around. The Father is God/YHWH, the Son is God/YHWH, and the Holy Spirit is God/YHWH, but the Father is not the Son, nor is He the Holy Spirit, the Son is neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit, and the Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son.

It's not easy, it cannot be fully understood by our finite minds, but it is the truth about the Godhead that the Bible sets forth for us to see (and it is the truth that the church's doctrine of the Trinity seeks to circumscribe and safeguard, not explain, because that, again, is clearly beyond any of us).

Perhaps one of our historic creeds will prove useful here in explaining the Biblical truth about the Godhead better and more properly than I can.

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith; Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord; And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits. And in this Trinity none is fore or after another; none is greater or less than another. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty; From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies; and shall give account of their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

~Athanasian Creed​

--David

 

[Peter1000]

Hi again Peter1000, the Bible teaches us that there is one God who exists as three Persons so, technically speaking anyway, the 1 is 3, not the other way around. The Father is God/YHWH, the Son is God/YHWH, and the Holy Spirit is God/YHWH, but the Father is not the Son, nor is He the Holy Spirit, the Son is neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit, and the Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son.

It's not easy, it cannot be fully understood by our finite minds, but it is the truth about the Godhead that the Bible sets forth for us to see (and it is the truth that the church's doctrine of the Trinity seeks to circumscribe and safeguard, not explain, because that, again, is clearly beyond any of us).

Perhaps one of our historic creeds will prove useful here in explaining the Biblical truth about the Godhead better and more properly than I can.

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith; Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord; And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits. And in this Trinity none is fore or after another; none is greater or less than another. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty; From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies; and shall give account of their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

~Athanasian Creed​

--David

I do appreciate the problems that you run into whenever you have to get serious about explaining the Trinity doctrine.

The Church of Jesus Christ does not have that problem. We know the 3 Persons are separated in time and space, but we are still able to call them 1 God at the same time. So our position is more like 1 God in 3 Persons, but the 3 are not a physical or of the same substance 1, They are 1 in purpose.

So when God the Son was crucified, God the Father was not crucified too, he was in the heavens watching the event. In fact Jesus asked God the Father why he had forsaken him at the cross.

So how does 1 God in 3 Persons, differ from 3 Persons in 1 God? Is it thousands of years of intricate discussion and endless scholarly debate?

Thank you for the discussion, you make my day.