who walked in the garden?

[jon914]

Hi there. my first post.
While speaking to a JW the other day, I read this verse to her. John 5:37 "And the Father hhimself who hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. YE HAVE NEITHER HEARD HIS VOICE AT ANY TIME, NOR SEEN HIS SHAPE."
Was Jesus just speaking to the crowd or was he making a statement to the world. If to the word, who did adam speak to and noah, moses. In fact God said he spoke to moses face to face in number 12:8 or mouth to mouth..
The JW didn't have an answer, do you?
John 914

 

[justified]

I'm not sure what the question is.

 

[jon914]

I'm not sure what the question is.

the question is , if no one has ever heard the fathers voice who did adam speak to and moses and noah, etc

I am getting to old and stupid, i hope that helps

john914

 

[dcyates]

Hi there. my first post.
While speaking to a JW the other day, I read this verse to her. John 5:37 "And the Father hhimself who hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. YE HAVE NEITHER HEARD HIS VOICE AT ANY TIME, NOR SEEN HIS SHAPE."
Was Jesus just speaking to the crowd or was he making a statement to the world. If to the word, who did adam speak to and noah, moses. In fact God said he spoke to moses face to face in number 12:8 or mouth to mouth..
The JW didn't have an answer, do you?
John 914

The next verse would appear to indicate that these words apply specifically to the audience to which Jesus was speaking at the time: "...and you do not have his word abiding in you, because you do not believe in him whom he has sent" (v. 38). This obviously isn't applicable to the entire world at all times. For example, I presume both you and I--and the majority of the people using this website--have God's word abiding in us and that we believe in him whom God has sent.

 

[jon914]

The next verse would appear to indicate that these words apply specifically to the audience to which Jesus was speaking at the time: "...and you do not have his word abiding in you, because you do not believe in him whom he has sent" (v. 38). This obviously isn't applicable to the entire world at all times. For example, I presume both you and I--and the majority of the people using this website--have God's word abiding in us and that we believe in him whom God has sent.

You could be correct, but I am not convinced.

At the end of the chapter Christ tells them that moses had written of him and they still would not believe. and in chaper 10:30 Christ tells those standing there that he and the father are ONE (mean of the same) they want to stone him because they knew that he was claiming to be GOD. OOOOPs not something to tell a bunch of Jews.
I believe that it was Christ in the garden at the burn;ing bush and else ware in the old test. There is still the FATHER and THE SON and The Spirit. Did you notice that Christ had to go to heaven before the Comfortor could come. Interresting. Think about it.


john914

 

[justified]

I did a bunch of exegetical work in this section of John 5 a few years ago. If I now correctly understand Jon's question, I can offer a few ideas.

Actually, it appears I've lost my notes. The polemic of John 5, as so much of John, is Christological and its ironic. The Jews argue from scripture, but Jesus says, "if you really knew scripture, then you'd know me!"

The idea that they had not heard his words is a reference to the idea that the torah was given orally to Israel. Not hearing them -- Hebraically this also has the idea of listening/obeying -- means that they aren't really Jews. It's a major slam, as it were.

The tradition of Moses seeing God's face is a difficult one -- and one that was rationalized away by Jewish exegetes because of an alternate tradition that no one could see God's form.

 

[jon914]

I did a bunch of exegetical work in this section of John 5 a few years ago. If I now correctly understand Jon's question, I can offer a few ideas.

Actually, it appears I've lost my notes. The polemic of John 5, as so much of John, is Christological and its ironic. The Jews argue from scripture, but Jesus says, "if you really knew scripture, then you'd know me!"

The idea that they had not heard his words is a reference to the idea that the torah was given orally to Israel. Not hearing them -- Hebraically this also has the idea of listening/obeying -- means that they aren't really Jews. It's a major slam, as it were.

The tradition of Moses seeing God's face is a difficult one -- and one that was rationalized away by Jewish exegetes because of an alternate tradition that no one could see God's form.

AAAh Tradition!

If Adam walked in the Garden with the Father before the fall, but that was over after the fall, I still have a question on this. Christ said in the same verse voice and shape, which I would assume ment they went together. So no voice could mean the word, but then you are stuck with shape!
I believe that no one at any time has ever heard the fathers voice and I on earth, but yet some one spoke and walked.. my question is WHO


John914

 

[jabechler]

Jesus walked with Adam, Jesus was in the burning bush. No man hath seen the father and Jesus told the Jews " I AM " and that He was before Abraham. Genesis tells us Jesus was with the Father at creation. Since Jesus was to be and now is our redemer it is more than plausible that it was He who walked talked and confired with his people through out time.

 

[jon914]

Jesus walked with Adam, Jesus was in the burning bush. No man hath seen the father and Jesus told the Jews " I AM " and that He was before Abraham. Genesis tells us Jesus was with the Father at creation. Since Jesus was to be and now is our redemer it is more than plausible that it was He who walked talked and confired with his people through out time.

That is just how I see it. Now to be carefull, because many try to remove the trinnity and put Christ as the only God

When Jesus taught he brought everyone in slowly. He could not give them the whole package in one day.
When Phillip said to Christ "Show us the Father" Jesus answered phillip by saying "you have been with me all this time! if you seen me youv'e seen the father.

Those are my own words, but they are close. The Jews were raise up with the knowlege that there was only one God and only after the ressurrection would you hope to see him. So for Jesus to make any claim that He was God would have made them all run for the Hills

The Jews were looking for someone to come and help them get ride of the Romans. Most of what Christ told them went right over there heads. They were mostly comon people with little education. They knew they wanted a leader and thats why Peter drew his soard and waked off a ear.

Thank you for your responce

John914