Who Started the Great Schism?

[prodromos]

Yeah well I know people praying for the reunification [including Myrna Nazzour.]

There is true union and false union. Only the former is from God.

 

[ArmyMatt]

No idea what you mean.

Rome for the century before the Schism agreed with us the filioque was heresy. Rome in the 13 century condemns us for not using the filioque and calls us heretics. Rome since the mid-20th century has said we aren’t heretics, and are not wrong for not using the filioque, since that’s just a more ancient version of the Creed.

not exactly consistent theology.

 

[ArmyMatt]

As far as I know ex cathedra was pronounced just a few times, and Mary Immaculate being one of them.

it’s weird that was never used to tackle any of the early heresies, especially if everyone knew this was a unique grace of the bishop of Rome.

 

[prodromos]

it’s weird that was never used to tackle any of the early heresies, especially if everyone knew this was a unique grace of the bishop of Rome.

I've brought this up many times before. If the Catholic Church doctrine regarding papal infallibility was truly a thing then why was it never exercised in the times where the Church was being torn by heresy and schism? Why wasn't the decision of the bishop of Rome sought out and obeyed if that was truly a teaching of the Church.
The answer of course is simple. It was not ever the teaching of the Church.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I've brought this up many times before. If the Catholic Church doctrine regarding papal infallibility was truly a thing then why was it never exercised in the times where the Church was being torn by heresy and schism? Why wasn't the decision of the bishop of Rome sought out and obeyed if that was truly a teaching of the Church.
The answer of course is simple. It was not ever the teaching of the Church.

Ephesus slams this notion in the face. you’re gonna tell me that everyone knew about Papal infallibility (and Sts Cyril of Alexandria and Celestine of Rome were allied), but Ephesus will be called and completed before Rome even gets there?

 

[abacabb3]

From warrior, I see all sorts of non sequiturs, but there appears to be no response that the Latin Church created a parallel Bishopric which in effect is defintion schism.

 

[abacabb3]

The cartoon sequel was made by Bible Illustrated

 

[WarriorAngel]

Rome for the century before the Schism agreed with us the filioque was heresy. Rome in the 13 century condemns us for not using the filioque and calls us heretics. Rome since the mid-20th century has said we aren’t heretics, and are not wrong for not using the filioque, since that’s just a more ancient version of the Creed.

not exactly consistent theology.

We don't use the filioque now, but it's not heresy unless St John, St Matthew, And St Luke [whom wrote the Acts], St Paul and early Church fathers were all heretics.

What the Early Church Believed: Filioque

Not all Christians believe that the Holy Spirit "proceeds from the Father and the Son." The evidence from the early Christians for this belief is overwhelming.

www.catholic.com

 

[prodromos]

We don't use the filioque now, but it's not heresy unless St John, St Matthew, And St Luke [whom wrote the Acts], St Paul and early Church fathers were all heretics.

Which one of them states that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son?

 

[ArmyMatt]

We don't use the filioque now, but it's not heresy unless St John, St Matthew, And St Luke [whom wrote the Acts], St Paul and early Church fathers were all heretics.

except that the Fathers you reference on that site don’t really deal with what makes the filioque heretical. we absolutely agree that “from the Father through the Son” is a proper formula (we say it every Pentecost).

I don’t really get your point here.

 

[WarriorAngel]

John 14:16
But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Now I am not a father of the Church, nor a great saint, but it would appear to me that dividing the Trinity and removing the ONE Will and tearing it apart to suggest that Jesus is not equal to the Father and the Holy Spirit is not equal to the Father in all things is a great error.

Proverbs 8:23
From everlasting I was established, from the beginning, before the earth began.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 8:58
"Truly, truly, I tell you," Jesus declared, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

John 17:1
When Jesus had spoken these things, He lifted up His eyes to heaven and said, "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may glorify You.

John 17:24
Father, I want those You have given Me to be with Me where I am, that they may see the glory You gave Me because You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

Philippians 2:6
Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

1 Peter 1:21
Through Him you believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and glorified Him; and so your faith and hope are in God.
[Father I commend My Spirit...] IE - He is God.

St John 17:

1When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

6“I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. 9I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. 10All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. 11And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. 12While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.a 16They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17Sanctify themb in the truth; your word is truth. 18As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19And for their sake I consecrate myself,c that they also may be sanctifiedd in truth.

20“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. 24Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. 25O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. 26I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”


The red I highlighted to demonstrate that Jesus is speaking of Himself as though speaking from the very spot of the Father because He speaks truth and is the Father. As a second Person. But Isaiah did say a Child will be born... call Him the Father Almighty.


I get that comprehending the Trinity is difficult but if you slow down a bit to read it you will see Jesus speaks and is the Father Almighty and they are One.
This is not easy to comprehend but division of Him doesn't come from a Divine knowledge IMHO.

 

[ArmyMatt]

John 14:16
But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

not the actual error. we affirm this point. Christ sending the Spirit is not the issue.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Now I am not a father of the Church, nor a great saint, but it would appear to me that dividing the Trinity and removing the ONE Will and tearing it apart to suggest that Jesus is not equal to the Father and the Holy Spirit is not equal to the Father in all things is a great error.

Proverbs 8:23
From everlasting I was established, from the beginning, before the earth began.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 8:58
"Truly, truly, I tell you," Jesus declared, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

John 17:1
When Jesus had spoken these things, He lifted up His eyes to heaven and said, "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may glorify You.

John 17:24
Father, I want those You have given Me to be with Me where I am, that they may see the glory You gave Me because You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

Philippians 2:6
Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

1 Peter 1:21
Through Him you believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and glorified Him; and so your faith and hope are in God.
[Father I commend My Spirit...] IE - He is God.

St John 17:

1When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

6“I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. 9I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. 10All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. 11And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. 12While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.a 16They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17Sanctify themb in the truth; your word is truth. 18As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19And for their sake I consecrate myself,c that they also may be sanctifiedd in truth.

20“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. 24Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. 25O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. 26I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”


The red I highlighted to demonstrate that Jesus is speaking of Himself as though speaking from the very spot of the Father because He speaks truth and is the Father. As a second Person. But Isaiah did say a Child will be born... call Him the Father Almighty.


I get that comprehending the Trinity is difficult but if you slow down a bit to read it you will see Jesus speaks and is the Father Almighty and they are One.
This is not easy to comprehend but division of Him doesn't come from a Divine knowledge IMHO.

sorry, but I don’t follow this point

 

[WarriorAngel]

not the actual error. we affirm this point. Christ sending the Spirit is not the issue.

Then what is the issue?

Because Jesus said I send. Proceeds from is sent from.
Jesus speaks in place of the Father and says if You see Me, you see the Father.
A child will be born and shall be CALLED the Father Almighty.
Jesus speaks of the Son from the place of the Father, as though speaking of another rather than Himself.
And does so interchangeably. Because They are ONE. Not separate. SO what the Father does, so does the Son, the Spirit of the Lord Who is in fact the Lord.
AND lastly because Jesus goes away and sends the Holy Spirit because of His life, death and Resurrection the Holy Spirit proceeds. His life, death and Resurrection was the Will of the Father. So it was the Will of the Father in the Three Divine.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Proceeds from is sent from.

but is it in the original Greek?

Then what is the issue?

Because Jesus said I send. Proceeds from is sent from.
Jesus speaks in place of the Father and says if You see Me, you see the Father.
A child will be born and shall be CALLED the Father Almighty.
Jesus speaks of the Son from the place of the Father, as though speaking of another rather than Himself.
And does so interchangeably. Because They are ONE. Not separate. SO what the Father does, so does the Son, the Spirit of the Lord Who is in fact the Lord.
AND lastly because Jesus goes away and sends the Holy Spirit because of His life, death and Resurrection the Holy Spirit proceeds. His life, death and Resurrection was the Will of the Father. So it was the Will of the Father in the Three Divine.

you really need to read the patristic distinction between what is natural, and what is personal.

 

[WarriorAngel]

but is it in the original Greek?


you really need to read the patristic distinction between what is natural, and what is personal.

What is natural and what is personal is actually an intriguing argument because Jesus said
"SImon you are MY Rock and I am building MY Church upon you and the gates of hell will NEVER prevail against THE CHURCH I am building upon YOU...
Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
SO if the Chair of Peter allowed this, then it is allowed in Heaven anything interpreted otherwise is personal interpretation.

In Judaism, keys yes keys are authority.
The steward in place of the KING Himself.

And that KING handed it all over to Peter His Rock with absolute confidence and HE wanted the others to be one with Peter as He was with the Father.
Peter was the ONLY one with the keys... to teach the WHOLE Church built upon him and HIS teachings.

Otherwise indeed it's just personal interpretation.

 

[ArmyMatt]

What is natural and what is personal is actually an intriguing argument because Jesus said
"SImon you are MY Rock and I am building MY Church upon you and the gates of hell will NEVER prevail against THE CHURCH I am building upon YOU...
Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
SO if the Chair of Peter allowed this, then it is allowed in Heaven anything interpreted otherwise is personal interpretation.

In Judaism, keys yes keys are authority.
The steward in place of the KING Himself.

And that KING handed it all over to Peter His Rock with absolute confidence and HE wanted the others to be one with Peter as He was with the Father.
Peter was the ONLY one with the keys... to teach the WHOLE Church built upon him and HIS teachings.

Otherwise indeed it's just personal interpretation.

this is a whole lot of you and little substance to back up your point.

again, what do the Fathers say about the distinction between nature and person? please no more red herrings.

 

[prodromos]

John 14:16
But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

Being "sent by", is not equivalent to "proceeding from", by any stretch of grammar.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

Jumping in with a side question. We date 1054 as the Great Schism but it appears that East and West did temporarily patch things up for some time afterwards. Is there a better date where things truly fell apart? I'm looking at the Sack of Constantinople or the Hesychasm controversy?

Please forgive me a sinner and I pray everyone is having a blessed Clean Monday.