Who says God is a Liar?

[edpobre]

Friends,

In Numbers 23:19 God says: "God is NOT a man that he should lie; NEITHER the son of man that he should repent: hath he said and he shall not do it? or hatrh he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"

However, a lot of people say that it was God who became a man (John 1:14). Can God become a man after saying what he said in Num. 23:19?

Who among you would like to stand up for God and side with Jesus in the controversy that Jesus created when he said that the Father is the only true God?

Ed

 

[Wearynot]

Do you ever post Scripture in context, or do you just scour the Bible for a verse here or there that backs your heresy?

 

[Wearynot]

Num 23:19 God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

God is not a man. Is this anything that is new to us? Nor the son of man, that He should repent Is this anything new? Are either of these verses telling one something one did not know? What does God need to repent of? To whom would God repent?

 

[Michael]

>>What does God need to repent of? To whom would God repent?

And does God need to pray, and to whom would he pray?

 

[Wearynot]

Jesus Christ, God come in the flesh, prayed to the Father.

But then that would be a Trinity debate, not necessarily a divinity debate.

So answer my question, I answered yours.

 

[Michael]

>>Jesus Christ, God come in the flesh, prayed to the Father. But then that would be a Trinity debate, not necessarily a divinity debate. So answer my question, I answered yours.

How did you answer my question? In both John 17, and more importantly the night before his death, Jesus prays to God as any son would pray to any greater presense, and God responds and sends an angel unto him to adminster to him. You have here a clear case of a distraught Jesus praying to a greater presense than himself for moral support in his time of greatest need, and God responds.

Jesus refers to this presense as the "ONE TRUE" God from whom all things flow, the sacred source of all life. In John 17 Jesus is very clear about his connection WITH this ONE TRUE God, and clear that other too will achieve this union WITH God, IN God, a UNITY, and a WHOLE.

What case are you trying to build here with that obscure verse anyway?

 

[edpobre]

Wearynot,

You wrote:

God is not a man. Is this anything that is new to us? Nor the son of man, that He should repent Is this anything new? Are either of these verses telling one something one did not know? What does God need to repent of? To whom would God repent?

That's precisely the point. Jesus prayed to the Father. Then he is not God. God said he is not a man nor son of man. Jesus calls himself son of man. Therefore, Jesus is not God. God says he does not lie. Therefore, God did not become a man as most people believe.

 

[ZoneChaos]

Clarification please:

And does God need to pray, and to whom would he pray?

Who claims that "God" prays? NOw I can assume you are treying to set a trap, so I will spring it ahead of time. The verse you use in your argument has the SOn praying to the Father. A more accuratre question for you to have asked would have been "And doe sthe Son (Jesus) need to pray, and to whom would He pray?

 

[Wearynot]

What case are you trying to build here with that obscure verse anyway?

You need to read the op, *I* did not offer that obscure verse, Michael.

 

[Wearynot]

That's precisely the point. Jesus prayed to the Father. Then he is not God. God said he is not a man nor son of man. Jesus calls himself son of man. Therefore, Jesus is not God. God says he does not lie. Therefore, God did not become a man as most people believe.

Just because your finite little brain cannot grasp the Trinity, does not mean it does not exist. You are steadfastly refusing to study the preponderence of the evidence.

You have been offered much Scripture in support of the deity of Jesus Christ, yet you continue to search through single solitary verses of Scripture looking for something that supports your very wrong doctrine, and usually taking the totality of the Scripture out of context.

That, edprobe, is cheating.

 

[Michael]

>>Just because your finite little brain cannot grasp the Trinity, does not mean it does not exist. You are steadfastly refusing to study the preponderence of the evidence. You have been offered much Scripture in support of the deity of Jesus Christ, yet you continue to search through single solitary verses of Scripture looking for something that supports your very wrong doctrine, and usually taking the totality of the Scripture out of context.

I think quite the opposite is the case here. Ed's case is based upon the teachings of Jesus himself, based on the words of Jesus himself. I can't help but agree with him too.

Jesus is quite clear he's a "son" of God, and that God is the only True God. It's not like he was vague about it either. He was really quite blunt in John 17. The whole point is he's praying to the being he just called the only True God. He's also quite clear that others will achieve this union in and with God that he himself enjoys.

If Jesus were simply God, why not come out and just say it? These were his closest friends after all!

It's ultimately not the Trinity doctrine I really have a tough time with to be honest. I do think that Jesus was indeed unified with God through the presense of the Holy Spirit. In this way, three become one. The real problem I have with elevating Jesus to the status of God, is that Jesus never really made such a claim, and it implies exclusivity that Jesus spoke *AGAINST*.

Nobody is ultimately debating that Jesus was "divinely inspired", or that Jesus was not "divine" in his own right. What ed and I agree upon though is that Jesus himself did not teach exclusivity as it relations to union WITH and IN God.

I think Ed would also agree that Jesus was embued with the presense of God through the Holy Spirit, but Jesus is quite clear that he's a "created" being, one capable of fear and of human frailty. Based upon Jesus' own teachings in John 17, if you are going to elevate Jesus to the status of God, then you also have to allow others to "share" this same relationship with God. That is what Jesus himself said about it.

 

[LouisBooth]

"Ed's case is based upon the teachings of Jesus himself, based on the words of Jesus himself. I can't help but agree with him too. "

Sorry micheal if you believe the bible then you believe Jesus is God..so I guess you have to say you don't believe the bible

"Jesus is quite clear he's a "son" of God, and that God is the only True God. It's not like he was vague about it either"

When an author writes a book what does he usually do first? He tells about the characters in the book and this information is prevatlent through the rest of the book. THATS EXACTLY WHAT JOHN DOES. In chapter 1 he clearly shows us Jesus is God. Read it for yourself the highlights are verse 1 word is God verse 14 God became flesh verse 15 John testifies about the word verse 30 John says when he testified in verse 15 he was testifying about Jesus..wa-la Jesus is GOD.

"That is what Jesus himself said about it. "

Jesus forgives sin, says that EVERYTHING THAT IS GODS is his also making himself God. He is God micheal

 

[edpobre]

Wearynot,

I wrote:

That's precisely the point. Jesus prayed to the Father. Then he is not God. God said he is not a man nor son of man. Jesus calls himself son of man. Therefore, Jesus is not God. God says he does not lie. Therefore, God did not become a man as most people believe.

You wrote:

Just because your finite little brain cannot grasp the Trinity, does not mean it does not exist. You are steadfastly refusing to study the preponderence of the evidence.

I can grasp the concept of the Trinity my friend and I know it does not exist because it isn't what God teaches. The truth is, anyone who believes and teaches the Trinity doctrine makes God a liar. God says He is not a man. Trinitarians say He is. God says He is not a son of man. Trinitarians say He is. God says there is no God besides Him. Trinitarians say there is - Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

You wrote:

You have been offered much Scripture in support of the deity of Jesus Christ, yet you continue to search through single solitary verses of Scripture looking for something that supports your very wrong doctrine, and usually taking the totality of the Scripture out of context.

That, edprobe, is cheating.

You are saying that the doctrine that Jesus is a man and the Father is the only true God is a "very wrong doctrine." Do you realize whose doctrine this is? This doctrine is not mine but Jesus'.

And how can my quoting solitary verses of the scripture to refute your false doctrine that Jesus is God be called cheating? You say God became a man. God says He is not a man. You say God is Jesus, the son of man. God says He is not a son of man.

Aren't you saying God is a liar Wearynot?

Ed

 

[LouisBooth]

"And how can my quoting solitary verses of the scripture to refute your false doctrine that Jesus is God be called cheating? "

when you take it out of context ed. For example..if I say I like to eat dogs at a cookout..I mean I like to eat dogs. You can repeat this and leave out that I was at a cookout and someone might mean I like to eat small animals that have 4 legs, which is not true. Context is important and its something you usually leave out.

"God says He is not a man. "

No nessisarliy ed. Lets just use simple logic here. In John 1:1 it says the word is God so word=God then in verse 14 it says word becomes flesh..now just using simple substitution you can say God became flesh, which is true.

 

[edpobre]

LouisBooth,

ED: "And how can my quoting solitary verses of the scripture to refute your false doctrine that Jesus is God be called cheating? "

LB: when you take it out of context ed. For example..if I say I like to eat dogs at a cookout..I mean I like to eat dogs. You can repeat this and leave out that I was at a cookout and someone might mean I like to eat small animals that have 4 legs, which is not true. Context is important and its something you usually leave out.

Whether I leave out that you were at a cookout, the truth remains that you are a dog-eater. When someone says you like to eat small animals that have four legs, that's what is usually called distortion of the truth because the truth is, you
are a dog-eater, not a rat-eater (a small animal that has four legs).

Jesus says he is a man. Whatever the context or reason for Jesus' saying this, the truth is he is a man and the context can't change it. Jesus was praying to the Father and says the father is the only true God. Whatever the context is, the truth remains that the Father alone is the only true God. Jesus is the son, therefore, Jesus cannot be God.

ED: "God says He is not a man. "

LB: No nessisarliy ed. Lets just use simple logic here. In John 1:1 it says the word is God so word=God then in verse 14 it says word becomes flesh..now just using simple substitution you can say God became flesh, which is true.

Are you suggesting that your logic can make God a liar?

God says he is not a man (Num. 23:19). Besides, who gave you the authority to substitute something to what God precisely said? John 1:14 says: "the WORD became flesh." It is the WORD of God that became flesh - NOT God Himself because according to God, He is NOT a man. Thus, saying that God became flesh is false.

Ed

 

[LouisBooth]

"Whatever the context or reason for Jesus' saying this, the truth is he is a man and the context can't change it. "

:lol: ed you show your faulty logic and how you misinterpret scripture. In the above analogy I said I did NOT eat dogs but hot dogs, but I just said dogs. You misinterpret this saying the same way because you take it out of context of the rest of the bible.

"It is the WORD of God that became flesh - NOT God "

Ed, you haven't read John chapter 1 have you? The author makes it CLEAR that the word is Jesus and the word is God. It says the word became flesh..and the word is God. Period..don't add anything ed.

Ed, in numbers 19 it is making a comparison, to a lying man. You're again taking the verse out of context..lets read the WHOLE verse here..

"God i not a mean, THAT he should lie, nor a son of man, THAT he should change his mind, Does he speak and then not act?. You are taking this verse out of context and twisting it to mean what you want it to. You're DEAD wrong about this verse ed.

 

[edpobre]

LouisBooth,

You wrote:

ed you show your faulty logic and how you misinterpret scripture. In the above analogy I said I did NOT eat dogs but hot dogs, but I just said dogs. You misinterpret this saying the same way because you take it out of context of the rest of the bible.

Why don't you edit your post So that you would not look like a LIAR - you liar!

"It is the WORD of God that became flesh - NOT God "

Ed, you haven't read John chapter 1 have you? The author makes it CLEAR that the word is Jesus and the word is God. It says the word became flesh..and the word is God. Period..don't add anything ed.

Look at the verse again liar. It DOES NOT say Jesus is the word.

Ed, in numbers 19 it is making a comparison, to a lying man. You're again taking the verse out of context..lets read the WHOLE verse here..

"God i not a mean, THAT he should lie, nor a son of man, THAT he should change his mind, Does he speak and then not act?. You are taking this verse out of context and twisting it to mean what you want it to. You're DEAD wrong about this verse ed.

The verse says "God is not A MAN." Do you deny that?

Ed

 

[ZoneChaos]

No more Ed. Your post was un-called for.

 

[Josephus]

Ed:
Beacuse your email address is private:

This is your only and final warning. Calling people a liar on this board constitutes a violation of rule number 1: "be kind to your fellow poster." We will enforce the rules here. If we recieve word you are calling people liar to their faces (which is improper debating ethic anyway), you will be suspended from the King's Tavern.

If you wish to discuss this with me, email me at josephus@thekingstavern.com

I request that you email me if you have more to say.

Any continued conversation on the board regarding this warning being posted here will also be considered a violation of rule number 3: "respect KT administration requests" and you will be suspended from the King's Tavern immediatly. Again, I personally request you to email if you have more to say on this issue.