Who really is Jesus?

[MayMcFlurry]

I have been looking at the history of the gospels a bit and the other documents in the new testament, and so much of it seems changed over the years due to differing political or cultural or even religious/early denominational agendas. For example Matthew and Luke are both based off Mark, and John was written way after them, plus, all these were written years after Paul wrote his apostles, who was anti-Christian for most of his life and never actually met Jesus in the flesh. How much of his writings are truth compared to his own human perceptions, previous Jewish beliefs carried over, and supernatural superstition? His epistles definitely influenced the gospels so that the original biography of Jesus really doesn't exist, I think. It's completely blurred the truth of his events.

So I'm left with wondering how to know the real Jesus at all. I have met Jesus in visions and he has left me wondering that there is much more we don't really know about him - lost in history. The bible was written two thousand years ago, and I really can't trust it, and don't understand Christians who say it's the inerrant word of God. To me it's inspired yes, but word for word directly from God? I doubt it.

Also there is so much we learn from Christian tradition that does not match up with Scripture in the first place, made from human rules and regulations in church establishments, so I even wonder these days, is true Christianity completely unrecognizable these days? Compared to when Jesus was actually alive?

Thoughts?

 

[Albion]

I have been looking at the history of the gospels a bit and the other documents in the new testament, and so much of it seems changed over the years due to differing political or cultural or even religious/early denominational agendas. For example Matthew and Luke are both based off Mark, and John was written way after them, plus, all these were written years after Paul wrote his apostles, who was anti-Christian for most of his life and never actually met Jesus in the flesh. How much of his writings are truth compared to his own human perceptions, previous Jewish beliefs carried over, and supernatural superstition? His epistles definitely influenced the gospels so that the original biography of Jesus really doesn't exist, I think. It's completely blurred the truth of his events.

So I'm left with wondering how to know the real Jesus at all. I have met Jesus in visions and he has left me wondering that there is much more we don't really know about him - lost in history. The bible was written two thousand years ago, and I really can't trust it, and don't understand Christians who say it's the inerrant word of God. To me it's inspired yes, but word for word directly from God? I doubt it.

Also there is so much we learn from Christian tradition that does not match up with Scripture in the first place....

I basically followed you up until there, but what did you have in mind with this?

 

[MayMcFlurry]

I dunno, I was just getting thoughts off my chest. Point is we don't really have a clear idea of Jesus or what true Christianity is really meant to be like... just human distortions..

 

[Albion]

I dunno, I was just getting thoughts off my chest. Point is we don't really have a clear idea of Jesus or what true Christianity is really meant to be like... just human distortions..

I'll clarify. Some things have evolved. But if they're optional or cultural and do not conflict with Scripture, that's probably not a cause for alarm. But if they DO countermand a Scriptural directive, that's different. I wondered what particular changes you might have had in mind and which category they fall into.

 

[Shempster]

That question was highly debated among everyone right from the start. This is part of the reason for all of the different schools of thought. Let's face it, the bible simply is not clear so we can all have our opinions but theres no way to accurately define his true orgins. It musts not be all that important.
Its great to debate but we should never divide on our personal interpretations.
In past history people were flat out murdered for opposing views on that.
How foolish.

 

[stevenfrancis]

Have you been baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and the Holy Spirit? If not, this would be a significant step towards cooperating with the grace that would enable you to trust the written Word of God. But moreover, it is the inspired, written word of God. The ancient Christian faiths (Catholic/Eastern Orthodox/Coptic) all preserve not only the Bible, and correctly understand that while the Bible IS inspired, and all of the maxims, teachings, histories and values presented are of God and are the Truth, as Jesus IS the truth, these truths are presented in various literary forms of the day by the various authors. Genesis is not a science book. The Gospels are different accounts of the life of Christ for different audiences. 2 (John and Matthew) by eye witnesses, 1 a transcription of the witness of the Apostle Peter most likely dictated to a young John Mark, and one by the physician and convert Luke, who was a travelling companion of St. Paul of Hippo. The last of them them was John's which can be anywhere from 60 - 100 AD, however, there is nothing in the texts to suggest any serious consideration of authorship after 69 AD, even for John's gospel, since it, and Revelation, nor the letters of John, (nor any other NT document for that matter) makes mention of the sacking of Jerusalem by Rome in 70 AD when the temple, and the entire city were laid to ruin. A significant event which actually cemented some of the prophecy by our blessed Lord.

All magesterial tradition within the Church of Rome, and the Eastern Patriarchies is of Apostolic origin, and is either directly referenced, indirectly supported, or at a minimum, not rejected in Holy scripture. The "traditions" you speak of which are made solely by man, and are human rules would not be sacred traditions but rather disciplines and practices of the Church, which have not risen to the level of dogmatic revelation. For instance the dogmatic sacred Tradition that there is One God in three Persons, vs. the Catholic discipline that adherents of the faith shall not eat meat during the Fridays of Lent.

I agree that there is much more to know. Much of which will not be made available to us on this side of the mortal coil. John tells us as much....... "Jn 21:25 There is much else besides that Jesus did; if all of it were put in writing, I do not think the world itself would contain the books which would have to be written."

But God DID in fact give Himself as our glimpse of perfection in the incarnation. Jesus DID leave us a Church, and a magesterium within which the Holy Spirit may continue to work to protect and clarify the faith from age to age, until the return of our Blessed Lord, and the creation of the New Heavens and the New Earth.

So, His apostolic successors follow the commandments and provide the means for sanctifying grace in our lives through the sacraments of the Church, the Bishops, the Doctors, the Saints, the Fathers, and the rest of the collective magesterium of the Church, as well as preserving the Bible as it has been understood through time, and applying the writings to our times through homilitics.

There is plenty to find to justify the non-believer who does not wish to see. But there is plenty more through Christ to bring sight to the blind.

"John 9:39 Hereupon Jesus said, I have come into this world so that a sentence may fall upon it, that those who are blind should see, and those who see should become blind.40 Some of the Pharisees heard this, such as were in his company, and they asked him, Are we blind too? 41 If you were blind, Jesus told them, you would not be guilty. It is because you protest, We can see clearly, that you cannot be rid of your guilt."

 

[Original Happy Camper]

I have been looking at the history of the gospels a bit and the other documents in the new testament, and so much of it seems changed over the years due to differing political or cultural or even religious/early denominational agendas. For example Matthew and Luke are both based off Mark, and John was written way after them, plus, all these were written years after Paul wrote his apostles, who was anti-Christian for most of his life and never actually met Jesus in the flesh. How much of his writings are truth compared to his own human perceptions, previous Jewish beliefs carried over, and supernatural superstition? His epistles definitely influenced the gospels so that the original biography of Jesus really doesn't exist, I think. It's completely blurred the truth of his events.

So I'm left with wondering how to know the real Jesus at all. I have met Jesus in visions and he has left me wondering that there is much more we don't really know about him - lost in history. The bible was written two thousand years ago, and I really can't trust it, and don't understand Christians who say it's the inerrant word of God. To me it's inspired yes, but word for word directly from God? I doubt it.

Also there is so much we learn from Christian tradition that does not match up with Scripture in the first place, made from human rules and regulations in church establishments, so I even wonder these days, is true Christianity completely unrecognizable these days? Compared to when Jesus was actually alive?

Thoughts?

Have you ever heard that the writers of the Bible were inspired by the Holy Spirit?

Do you believe that God would not preserve his word for us to learn about his love for us?

Stay away from any bibles based on the works of Hort and Westcott, they were followers of Darwin according to their writings.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

just human distortions..

You got that right

Matthew 7:22-23 King James Version (KJV)
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[Greg J.]

I have been looking at the history of the gospels a bit and the other documents in the new testament, and so much of it seems changed over the years due to differing political or cultural or even religious/early denominational agendas.

We have very old copies of the NT. They haven't changed. It's humans that are tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching.

For example Matthew and Luke are both based off Mark, and John was written way after them,

There is plenty of unique info in Matthew and Luke that is not in Mark. It doesn't matter when John was written. Jesus' Scriptures were mostly extremely old.

plus, all these were written years after Paul wrote his apostles, who was anti-Christian for most of his life and never actually met Jesus in the flesh.

Paul was anti-Christian for less than 10% of his total lifespan.

How much of his writings are truth compared to his own human perceptions, previous Jewish beliefs carried over, and supernatural superstition? His epistles definitely influenced the gospels so that the original biography of Jesus really doesn't exist, I think. It's completely blurred the truth of his events.

All of his writings as he originally wrote them down are full-blown Truth without error. Extremely accurate copies of the originals are available to all to review.

Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. (2 Peter 1:20-21, 1984 NIV)

Also see 2 Peter 3:15-16.

So I'm left with wondering how to know the real Jesus at all. I have met Jesus in visions and he has left me wondering that there is much more we don't really know about him - lost in history. The bible was written two thousand years ago, and I really can't trust it, and don't understand Christians who say it's the inerrant word of God. To me it's inspired yes, but word for word directly from God? I doubt it.

You know the real Jesus by believing all he said and then by being obedient. If you haven't given yourself over to Jesus, then you won't know him.

Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. (James 1:22, 1984 NIV)

Also there is so much we learn from Christian tradition that does not match up with Scripture in the first place, made from human rules and regulations in church establishments, so I even wonder these days, is true Christianity completely unrecognizable these days? Compared to when Jesus was actually alive?

Thoughts?

Who's Christianity? A sizable percentage of Christians have little tradition. Wherever tradition is contrary to the Truth as revealed in Scripture, tradition is wrong. It's human opinion that makes it complicated.

True Christianity is recognizable to those who are familiar with all of Scripture and have been living fully committed and devoted to Jesus for decades.

Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. (Matthew 22:37-38, 1984 NIV)

To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (bold mine, John 8:31-32, 1984 NIV)

 

[Andrewofthetribe]

I have been looking at the history of the gospels a bit and the other documents in the new testament, and so much of it seems changed over the years due to differing political or cultural or even religious/early denominational agendas. For example Matthew and Luke are both based off Mark, and John was written way after them, plus, all these were written years after Paul wrote his apostles, who was anti-Christian for most of his life and never actually met Jesus in the flesh. How much of his writings are truth compared to his own human perceptions, previous Jewish beliefs carried over, and supernatural superstition? His epistles definitely influenced the gospels so that the original biography of Jesus really doesn't exist, I think. It's completely blurred the truth of his events.

So I'm left with wondering how to know the real Jesus at all. I have met Jesus in visions and he has left me wondering that there is much more we don't really know about him - lost in history. The bible was written two thousand years ago, and I really can't trust it, and don't understand Christians who say it's the inerrant word of God. To me it's inspired yes, but word for word directly from God? I doubt it.

Also there is so much we learn from Christian tradition that does not match up with Scripture in the first place, made from human rules and regulations in church establishments, so I even wonder these days, is true Christianity completely unrecognizable these days? Compared to when Jesus was actually alive?

Thoughts?

Great post and I can totally understand your concern.
I don't believe Jesus would leave such an important message in the hands of those who will write it down and it can be changed.
I believe the true message of Christ was carried within the hearts of the commonfolk.
Just as the 15th Century would sing in rhymes to hide their messages, so I believe Christs true message has been brought to our shores and into our hearts.

 

[GeorgeJ]

I believe the true message of Christ was carried within the hearts of the commonfolk.

Yes! It was and still is!

 

[Everybodyknows]

Extremely accurate copies of the originals are available to all to review

How can we say how accurate the copies of the originals are when there are no known originals left?

 

[AJTruth]

Maybe the OP writer should learn what a Christian is, before trying to speak for them.

The OP ended their post with this:

Quote: """
Christianity completely unrecognizable these days? Compared to when Jesus was actually alive?"""

There were NO Christians when Jesus was alive. Maranatha

 

[Greg J.]

How can we say how accurate the copies of the originals are when there are no known originals left?

Archeology and textual criticism tells us. One example is: When copies were found far from each other and yet were the same, it means that they both had a common source in the past. There are thousands of old fragments that are the same or almost the same. The variations are not with big spiritual doctrines, but the sort of thing you would expect at the level of misspelled words or from employing a scribe that wasn't very bright. It requires capable analysts through. I'm not more familiar with the subject that what I've said, but there are books that cover the matter.

 

[Everybodyknows]

Great post and I can totally understand your concern.
I don't believe Jesus would leave such an important message in the hands of those who will write it down and it can be changed.
I believe the true message of Christ was carried within the hearts of the commonfolk.
Just as the 15th Century would sing in rhymes to hide their messages, so I believe Christs true message has been brought to our shores and into our hearts.

Good reply. What do you think is the purpose of Scripture then. If the primary vehicle for carrying Christ's message is our hearts then why do we need not-so-infallible writings?

 

[Greg J.]

We don't need a message, we need Jesus himself. Hearing the message doesn't save anyone. Even "believing" the message is not enough unless we believe in and trust him. We start out knowing about him by reading about him, but that's not enough by itself. Scripture is given to lead us to Christ himself. When a person genuinely believes in and trusts him, then he or she will want to know the real him better, will study Scripture more, and try to be more obedient.

 

[SkyWriting]

I dunno, I was just getting thoughts off my chest. Point is we don't really have a clear idea of Jesus or what true Christianity is really meant to be like... just human distortions..

Jesus as God, died for our less-than-perfectness that God requires.
Trust that Jesus did enough, and you are saved.

The message seems to have made it though OK.

 

[MJFlores]

Also there is so much we learn from Christian tradition that does not match up with Scripture in the first place, made from human rules and regulations in church establishments, so I even wonder these days, is true Christianity completely unrecognizable these days? Compared to when Jesus was actually alive?

I agree with you 100%

 

[he-man]

So I'm left with wondering how to know the real Jesus at all. I have met Jesus in visions and he has left me wondering that there is much more we don't really know about him - lost in history. Thoughts?

First of all, if you have to ask that question, then you do not know Jesus. Perhaps you should read some history? Have you studied the Bible without any influence from other sources? A simple approach is usually the best. Where people got some of their ideas, I do not know.
The first thing you should do is to examine Psalm 149:2 Let Israel rejoice in their Maker; let the people of Zion be glad in their King. Let them praise his name with dancing and make music to him with timbrel and harp. Then ask God to reveal what His plans are for you. Then consider where you stand.
Luk 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
How can you learn if you do not know what to search for and what God has promised you?
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Heb 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.