Who or what is responsible for suffering?

Not_By_Chance

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Looking at the appalling suffering that there is in this world, I think it can broadly be divided into suffering deliberately or accidentally inflicted by living creatures and so-called natural events, like earthquakes, extreme weather, etc. There was a graphic example of the former on the BBC news the other night where a 5-year-old girl had had her leg blown off and lost at least part of the foot on her other leg as an innocent casualty of the war that has broken out between Turkey and the Kurds in Syria. A young life ruined for what? No-one should have to suffer such horror, least of all a child. It makes me sick at heart just to think about it. And it keeps happening over and over and over again. There is no doubt in my mind that at least as far as these types of events are concerned, there are evil forces at work.

Now as far as the other types of suffering, I’d be particularly interested to know what others think about the natural events and who or what is responsible for those. Let’s take weather extremes as an example, such as the devastation recently caused in The Bahamas. It begs the question – is God actually in control, i.e., is He causing the storms to develop and then guiding them to pass over areas of population so that as many people die or suffer as a result? That would of course amount to mass murder by human standards and would suggest at the very least that God doesn’t care what happens to us in much the same way that the people pressing the buttons on the missile launchers don’t care about the victims on the receiving end, such as the child I mentioned above. There only appears to be three other possible answers as far as I can tell; 1) either God is not in full control of this world at the moment (akin perhaps to it being on auto-pilot) or 2) some aspects of the natural world are under the control of evil forces or 3) we are mistaken in our belief that God even exists at all.
 

renniks

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Looking at the appalling suffering that there is in this world, I think it can broadly be divided into suffering deliberately or accidentally inflicted by living creatures and so-called natural events, like earthquakes, extreme weather, etc. There was a graphic example of the former on the BBC news the other night where a 5-year-old girl had had her leg blown off and lost at least part of the foot on her other leg as an innocent casualty of the war that has broken out between Turkey and the Kurds in Syria. A young life ruined for what? No-one should have to suffer such horror, least of all a child. It makes me sick at heart just to think about it. And it keeps happening over and over and over again. There is no doubt in my mind that at least as far as these types of events are concerned, there are evil forces at work.

Now as far as the other types of suffering, I’d be particularly interested to know what others think about the natural events and who or what is responsible for those. Let’s take weather extremes as an example, such as the devastation recently caused in The Bahamas. It begs the question – is God actually in control, i.e., is He causing the storms to develop and then guiding them to pass over areas of population so that as many people die or suffer as a result? That would of course amount to mass murder by human standards and would suggest at the very least that God doesn’t care what happens to us in much the same way that the people pressing the buttons on the missile launchers don’t care about the victims on the receiving end, such as the child I mentioned above. There only appears to be three other possible answers as far as I can tell; 1) either God is not in full control of this world at the moment (akin perhaps to it being on auto-pilot) or 2) some aspects of the natural world are under the control of evil forces or 3) we are mistaken in our belief that God even exists at all.
What do you mean by control? If God was actively controlling everything he would be controlling and causing evil. We know that God is not the author of evil. We know that Satan is the prince of this world. Remember when the storm threatened to overturn the boat on the Sea of Galilee, before Jesus calmed it? They were heading towards the demon possessed man. Most likely that storm was caused by demonic activity. Best to remember that we live in a cursed world. God has not yet re made it back into Eden, where he will be the only ruler.
 
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joshua 1 9

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A young life ruined for what?
In everything we are to give thanks: "all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose." (Romans8:28) If God allows something then He has a reason and a purpose and He will reveal in Heaven. Paul tells us there is a wisdom for those who understand the Hidden Mysteries of God. For those who do not believe they go from bad to worse. Those who believe go from Glory to Glory.
 
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tampasteve

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Some people, myself included, believe that most of what happens in the world is just happenstance. It is people doing good or evil, it is viruses and bacteria doing what they do, it is earthly/weather things doing what they do....it is not necessarily a "good" or "evil" force projecting or protecting, it is just.....events and happenings.

Why did God let one child be cured of cancer and another die if both of them came from families that were praying constantly and staunch believers? I can't personally believe in a God that would allow such things to happen, so I believe that in general God does not intervene at this point. God did not give the disease nor heal the one child, it was just the world and the effects of having to live in it - for better or worse.
 
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spiritualchristian7

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mostly natural (present age)
maybe God intervenes from time to time (?) like in the OT
maybe some are artificially made by the devil

I remember a testimony from Jim Caviezel
When they were shooting the "Passion of the Christ", the devil intervened with the weather with lightning strikes.

888ac01faf72360c6d8a49a78945f60a.jpg
 
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joshua 1 9

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joshua 1 9

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Why did God let one child be cured of cancer and another die
Even doctors here on Earth do not understand that with all of their education. In Heaven they will go to school, learn and understand God purpose in what He allows and what He is wanting to accomplish in peoples lives. My father served our community as a doctor for 50 years. What impressed him the most was the people that could praise God and rejoice no matter what the disease was or the adversity they had to endure. This is a true test of the faith people have.
 
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tampasteve

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What impressed him the most was the people that could praise God and rejoice no matter what the disease was or the adversity they had to endure. This is a true test of the faith people have.
No disagreements there. :)
 
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renniks

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They talk about God's perfect will and God's permissive will. God's word accomplishes His good purpose. " My word that proceeds from My mouth will not return to Me empty, but it will accomplish what I please, and it will prosper where I send it. " (Isaiah 55:11)
God must permit a lot of horrible things, then. I don't disagree, I just think sometimes we glibly speak of God allowing all the atrocities in the world, as if it's no big deal. It only makes sense when you realize this world in it's present form is cursed, because of sin.
 
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Not_By_Chance

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God must permit a lot of horrible things, then. I don't disagree, I just think sometimes we glibly speak of God allowing all the atrocities in the world, as if it's no big deal. It only makes sense when you realize this world in it's present form is cursed, because of sin.
It's a massive deal for those unfortunate enough to be caught up in the horrific events that take place on this planet and it surely makes many, even if they believe in God, to conclude that He doesn't care. In addition to the dreadful things that happen to people and other life forms, there is the fact that life here is totally unfair. Compare the life of a poor, handicapped person living in a war-torn, drought-ravaged area with a rich, attractive, talented person living in a luxurious mansion in a relatively safe and highly-desirable location. Why should one human being have to suffer like that, while another has an easy life? It makes me think of that silly old saying "There but for the grace of God go I" because if God is literally creating certain souls to inhabit defective bodies in dreadful locations while sending others to virtual paradise, He could hardly be said to be fair could He?
 
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bling

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If a person, including yourself at this time, is in a middle of a tragedy it is not the right time to be philosophical about tragedies, since Loving, serving, helping listening and spending time with the person is what’s needed.

Do not read further if this is the case and lets us work in Love on getting you through this tragedy.

Paul prayed many times for his thorn in the flesh to be removed and it was not, because it was there to help him.

This messed up world is actually the very best place to help willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective.

We all look forward to being in heaven where there are no needy people, no sorrow, no death, and no sin.

This earth is not to be heaven, if we did not need this earth to be the way it is, we could all start out in heaven.

Is death bad in and of itself?

The same situation which strengths a person faith, will harden another person’s heart, so should God stop providing the message and/or the situation which will soften the accepting heart?



This world is full of tragedies, which can also be viewed as opportunities to help humans fulfill their earthly objective.

We have an earthly objective.



The story of Adam and Eve (Gen 3)(you do not have to believe it is true to get the message) is told very early, because all individuals ask the question: “Why would a truly Loving God not put us all in a Garden type situation?” The story of A&E explains why we are in our situation:

1. God desires is that we all be in a Garden type situation, but God quenches His own desire to provide a better situation for us to fulfill our earthly objective.

2. Our earthly object is not to “worship God”, “to never/ever sin”, run around free, just don’t sin, or be good. God does not need anything from us, but is just trying to give something to us. God is trying to give us the greatest power in all universes; the power that compels God to do all He does, but that power cannot be forced on us (take it or I torture you) or can it be instinctive to man (robotically programmed in humans). It is a gift from God that is totally undeserved and unconditional (so it is Charity), but man has to accept the gift as it was given. Humans, instinctive to survival, (which is good for man to have) does not help an individual to want to take charity especially if it comes at a huge cost to the giver.

3. The gift is Godly type Love which is best defined by Christ’s words and deeds. God will do all he can to help those that are willing to accept His help, fulfill their earthly objective of accepting His Love and growing that Love. Included in “all that God will do and allow to happen” are: Christ going to the cross, satan roaming the earth, sin, hell and tragedies of all kinds.

4. First off; death is the way good people get to go home and the way bad people stop doing bad stuff, so death is not “bad” in and of itself.

5. It is truly unfortunate and not God’s desire that tragedies have to occur. God has to quench His desire to allow tragedies, for man’s sake to help humans accept Love. People have to see, experience, witness, receive and even give Godly type Love, before they will even understand and desire such a Love. Some even after receiving Godly type Love from an individual just like themselves will not want it or explain it away (justifying in their own mind: the person is just trying to gain respect or earn their way to heaven or they are making up for the bad they have done).

6. Everyone on earth is needy, because everyone has hurt others (sinned) and should feel the burden of the sin at least for a while. Their creator is trying to give them Love in the form of forgiveness so they will Love (the Bible and life teach us: “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”) If we realize and except forgiveness of an unbelievable huge debt created by our sins, we will automatically receive an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love) that is truly ours.

7. There are a huge amount of sever tragedies in this world, but they are really opportunities for good people to show, give, experience, grow and witness Godly type Love. With all those tragedies some good people are still not responding, so are more needed? It is not our job to provide tragedies, but to solve, reduce, eliminate all we can, by allowing the Spirit to work through us.

8. Scripture tells us the needy will be with us always on this earth. Christ did not “heal” all those that were sick, but used those tragedies around Him to express Godly Love and show us how we are to handle tragedies (serve others with Love). Healing everyone without the witness of Godly type Love being seen in serving individual like any other person would not get other people to accept God’s Love in faith and humility, but we could grow from the experience.

9. This world is not our Home and our rest comes later. It is both a privilege and Honor to allow the Holy Spirit to work through us in serving others in this world to best help everyone around us to accept God’s Love (fulfill their objective).

10. If you had to find the most Christ Like person in the world today, where would you look?

I see Jesus explaining it in John 9: 1-7.

In John 9: 1-7 you have a tragedy (the apostles are asking about a specific tragedy, but they do not know this individual and are thinking in general terms [you need to get into their head]).

Jesus does not say: “this tragedy was caused by: Adam/Eve sinning, Satan, sin, bad luck, God or evil in the world (those have been our answers).”

Jesus does not say: “It was because of the bad that happened”, but does say: “This is for the good that can (and in this case will) happen.”

If you have lived for very long, you have seen good come from some tragedies, but why not all tragedies?

Is someone keeping good from coming from every tragedy?

Everything that is happening in the world right now (disease, natural disasters, and tragedies of all kinds) are not the result of the bad that has happened (or Adam and Eve), but is the result of the GOOD that can happen!

God is quenching His desire to have us all in a Garden type situation to help us fulfill our objective.

Everything starts and ends with the objective;



The objective of humans is to: “Love God (and secondly others) with all your heart, soul, mind, and energy and Love others.” The definition of “Love” is key for it is not instinctive or just emotional but it is Love of your enemies, described by Jesus’ life and Paul in 1 Cor. 13 and by John. It requires a free will moral decision to Love over likely alternatives (the perceived pleasures of sin for a season). The fall was tragic and not God’s desire, but may have been both inevitable and necessary. For all humans since the fall that have come to Love God started out by accepting God’s Love in the form of forgiveness.

Needy people create opportunities to experience, see, accept, express and receive Godly type Love. Everyone needs the full opportunity to accept Godly type Love which may have to be done when the person reaches the bottom like the prodigal son.

The innocent that died as the result of God’s action may not really suffer as far as we know.

There would have to be some benefit for humans to have faith that would help them fulfill their objective, over not needing faith, so what is the benefit?

1. We either have faith in self or we put our trust in God. Self-reliance has to do with our money, country, insurance, family, friends, achievements and pride, while reliance on God is just the opposite and requires putting self aside; going from being perceived independent to being dependent on God.

2. Faith in God is a humbling experience, because it is something that the lowliest person can do and actually maybe more likely to do. You are no better than the lowliest believing person when it comes to faith.

3. Believing God/trusting God comes out of an admitted need for help. We all need help all the time, but might not feel or admit that need strongly until in a tragedy and if we live long enough we will all experience tragedies. Turning to God is an easy act of humility (made easy by tragedies), and we need humility to accept charity. God’s forgiveness of our sins is an act of charity (grace/mercy/Love). “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…” and thus fulfill our earthly objective by just accepting charity.

4. Faith can produce humility, and humility allows one to accept charity, and forgiveness is Charity and forgiveness produces Love.

Did Adam and Eve have faith? Did the Jews that crossed the Red Sea have faith? Is faith needed in heaven? Is our faith the determining factor to our salvation?
 
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bling

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It's a massive deal for those unfortunate enough to be caught up in the horrific events that take place on this planet and it surely makes many, even if they believe in God, to conclude that He doesn't care. In addition to the dreadful things that happen to people and other life forms, there is the fact that life here is totally unfair. Compare the life of a poor, handicapped person living in a war-torn, drought-ravaged area with a rich, attractive, talented person living in a luxurious mansion in a relatively safe and highly-desirable location. Why should one human being have to suffer like that, while another has an easy life? It makes me think of that silly old saying "There but for the grace of God go I" because if God is literally creating certain souls to inhabit defective bodies in dreadful locations while sending others to virtual paradise, He could hardly be said to be fair could He?
Specific to your question you have the story of "the rich man and Lazarus".
Some of us could have the privilege and honor of being a modern day Lazarus.
God loves the rich man like he loves all his children so God provides the very best and easiest way for the rich man to experience Godly type Love (fulfilling his objective if he accepts it). Lazarus each day is providing that opportunity by having the rich man trip over him every day. It would have been wonderful if the rich man had ceased the opportunity Lazarus was providing and befriended Lazarus, but he did not.
God will make it up to Lazarus in heaven, but that is the fault of the rich man.
 
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...God doesn’t care what happens to us in much the same way that the people pressing the buttons on the missile launchers don’t care about the victims on the receiving end, such as the child I mentioned above. There only appears to be three other possible answers as far as I can tell; 1) either God is not in full control of this world at the moment (akin perhaps to it being on auto-pilot) or 2) some aspects of the natural world are under the control of evil forces or 3) we are mistaken in our belief that God even exists at all.

I believe God cares. But in Biblical point of view material world is not the important thing. The important matters are soul and spirit. And the goal is to become righteous and get the true life with God. This first death is just a short lesson about good and evil. In this life we can experience what godless “life” means. People wanted to know evil and I think that is the reason why we were expelled to this world where all kind of evil things can happen. Obviously, many things are painful and not nice in this “life”, but if one is really a disciple of Jesus (“Christian”), he should understand to keep the focus on things that last, not on things that are not even meant to last.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
Matt. 10:28-31

… "Therefore I tell you, don't be anxious for your life, what you will eat, nor yet for your body, what you will wear. Life is more than food, and the body is more than clothing. Consider the ravens: they don't sow, they don't reap, they have no warehouse or barn, and God feeds them. How much more valuable are you than birds! Which of you by being anxious can add a cubit to his height? If then you aren't able to do even the least things, why are you anxious about the rest? Consider the lilies, how they grow. They don't toil, neither do they spin; yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. But if this is how God clothes the grass in the field, which today exists, and tomorrow is cast into the oven, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith? Don't seek what you will eat or what you will drink; neither be anxious. For the nations of the world seek after all of these things, but your Father knows that you need these things. But seek God's Kingdom, and all these things will be added to you.
Luke 12:22-31

This is why, whatever happens here, we should do best in here with what we get and remember that the goal is with God, this is is only a short lesson that I think should be taken thankfully.
 
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SkyWriting

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1) either God is not in full control of this world at the moment (akin perhaps to it being on auto-pilot) or 2) some aspects of the natural world are under the control of evil forces or 3) we are mistaken in our belief that God even exists at all.

#7. God has planned and executed all aspects of His plan down to the instant.

- You just don't like it....which is His plan, for you.
We're not supposed to embrace this temporary existence without Gods communion.
 
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SkyWriting

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... a graphic example of the former on the BBC news the other night where a 5-year-old girl..

My nephew died before birth.
Each minute alive is a gift.
 
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Not_By_Chance

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I believe God cares. But in Biblical point of view material world is not the important thing. The important matters are soul and spirit. And the goal is to become righteous and get the true life with God. This first death is just a short lesson about good and evil. In this life we can experience what godless “life” means. People wanted to know evil and I think that is the reason why we were expelled to this world where all kind of evil things can happen. Obviously, many things are painful and not nice in this “life”, but if one is really a disciple of Jesus (“Christian”), he should understand to keep the focus on things that last, not on things that are not even meant to last.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
Matt. 10:28-31

… "Therefore I tell you, don't be anxious for your life, what you will eat, nor yet for your body, what you will wear. Life is more than food, and the body is more than clothing. Consider the ravens: they don't sow, they don't reap, they have no warehouse or barn, and God feeds them. How much more valuable are you than birds! Which of you by being anxious can add a cubit to his height? If then you aren't able to do even the least things, why are you anxious about the rest? Consider the lilies, how they grow. They don't toil, neither do they spin; yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. But if this is how God clothes the grass in the field, which today exists, and tomorrow is cast into the oven, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith? Don't seek what you will eat or what you will drink; neither be anxious. For the nations of the world seek after all of these things, but your Father knows that you need these things. But seek God's Kingdom, and all these things will be added to you.
Luke 12:22-31

This is why, whatever happens here, we should do best in here with what we get and remember that the goal is with God, this is is only a short lesson that I think should be taken thankfully.
Thank you for reminding me of some relevant teachings from our Lord on this topic. I guess we just have to accept that there are many things about this life that are so below God's ways that we can't possibly comprehend them, despite the media and secular scientists trying to convince us otherwise.
 
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SkyWriting

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Now as far as the other types of suffering, I’d be particularly interested to know what others think about the natural events and who or what is responsible for those.

They are a gift from God. Being born onto puffy clouds of cotton candy and using cotton candy clouds for transportation while you dream away your entire life.....is not healthy.

Everybody knows that "the easy life" gets you nowhere.
 
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SkyWriting

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That would of course amount to mass murder by human standards and would suggest at the very least that God doesn’t care what happens to us in much the same way that the people pressing the buttons on the missile launchers don’t care about the victims on the receiving end, such as the child I mentioned above. There only appears to be three other possible answers as far as I can tell; 1) either God is not in full control of this world at the moment (akin perhaps to it being on auto-pilot) or 2) some aspects of the natural world are under the control of evil forces or 3) we are mistaken in our belief that God even exists at all.

God holds each electron in it's planned orbit in the entire Cosmos.
Not one atom is outside of God's plan.

Colossians 1:17
And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Romans 8:28
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

Proverbs 19:21
Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.

Isaiah 41:10
Fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.

Proverbs 16:9
The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.

Joshua 1:9
Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be frightened, and do not be dismayed, for the Lord your God is with you wherever you go.”

Matthew 6:34
“Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.

Hebrews 1:3
He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,



01d14707c6d3a9c17325b107bec9f53d.png
 
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Not_By_Chance

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They are a gift from God. Being born onto puffy clouds of cotton candy and using cotton candy clouds for transportation while you dream away your entire life.....is not healthy.

Everybody knows that "the easy life" gets you nowhere.
Hmm. I don't think that would bring much comfort to those unfortunate souls in The Bahamas that have lost everything due to the recent hurricane that passed directly over them. I can imagine the conversation going something like this:-

Resident 1: "Please help me, I've lost everything; I've nothing to eat and no clean water to drink; My wife and children were killed in the storm. What can I do?"

Resident 2: "Don't worry - this is all a gift from God. All you've got to do is worship him and give thanks for providing this situation for you. He could have diverted the storm away from where you live, but he has a plan that you can't possibly understand, so that is why he made sure that the storm came right over your house and lingered there for a day or so in order for you to obtain maximum benefit."
 
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