Who loses their Salvation, and for "what" do they lose it for...?

[Carl Emerson]

We turn to God, and later, like Adam did originally, we freely turn away from Him, even after 'tasting of the heavenly gift' (Heb 6:4). Persistent serious sin, always an act against love of God and neighbor, is generally the turning point, the expression of our distaste for Him.

How do you reconcile this with Jer 32:37 following which clearly states that the new covenant to come would seal believers with the fear of Him so that what you describe would be totally impossible?

Blessings,

Carl Emerson,

 

[Kenny'sID]

Show us the words "saved for a while" and "fall away from their salvation"

Show me where I said any terminology I used was in the bible other than the scripture I quoted?

Saved for awhile = "which for a while believe". (see the term "believeth" in John 3:16 before you try to tell me believing doesn't mean we're saved)

Fall away from their salvation = "and in time of temptation fall away"

I already explained "fall away from what" or what else could they have fallen away from?

Did you answer that question among that huge post of yours attempting to change simple truths of the bible?

See I expect people to have common sense/skills enough to work out what is being said, and most do, at least those that haven't deluded themselves to the point they have blinded themselves to anything but their easy way, the very reason I went a little further in explaining.

What you just did was expected, the reason I explained it as i did, and the only reason I'm explaining further now is with hope this post shows what people do with sound doctrine and that it will get the attention of those seeking or those not so far gone they can no longer see what ones selfishness/want to do as they want, does to their good sense.

What the post was not expected to do, was get to those who's eyes are completely shut.

 

[worshipjunkie]

We turn to God, and later, like Adam did originally, we freely turn away from Him, even after 'tasting of the heavenly gift' (Heb 6:4). Persistent serious sin, always an act against love of God and neighbor, is generally the turning point, the expression of our distaste for Him.

I know the Catholic teaching about mortal sin, which states that a person can lose and regain their salvation, not only once but repeatedly. I know the "normal" means of gaining it back is considered to be sacramental confession. The Protestant belief is similar if not as detailed; that serious persistent sinning costs you your salvation, and you have to repent and return. My question with that is; all the Scripture verses about the permanent changes in us when we become Christians:

1 Peter 2:9 (ESV) But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

Colossians 3:3 (ESV) For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

2 Corinthians 5:17 ESV Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

John 15:15 ESV No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.

Jeremiah 32:38-42 ESV And they shall be my people, and I will be their God.I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear me forever, for their own good and the good of their children after them. I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me. I will rejoice in doing them good, and I will plant them in this land in faithfulness, with all my heart and all my soul.

Nowhere in Scripture do I see where these things can be done and undone and done again. Christ makes eternal changes in us; not ones that can disappear and reappear. Nowhere does the Bible state you can be a friend of Christ, then His enemy, then a friend again. But it does state that any sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men and that speaking against the Son will be forgiven. It seems much more logical to say the person who falls away then returns was either never saved in the first place or they didn't truly fall away.

 

[Neogaia777]

They have fallen away from "Grace" (and went back to law) is what (temptation, sin) Paul is "specifically talking about" here, in it's context...

Apostasized... Teaching and trying to sway and lead away others in that also... Ravenous wolves... in sheep's clothing... Haters of God really, and God's true people, envious and jealous of them and their freedom given to them by the Grace of God, to the point of insanity sometimes, blasphemers Jesus called them (who would accuse others of such, ect)... Oh, no, but they don't sin, not at all...

And "redeemed"...? They would say they already had been, or might say you are the one who needs be redeemed for even asking them maybe, and maybe then they would or might ask you, "from what...?", when they should, or maybe do full well know what, but you think they would ever own up to that, I don't think so...

Of being hard, cold, unforgiving, and merciless, and very very cruel and unkind, overly critical and judgmental, ect, when you have no right, ect...

That's the consequence of long term complete and total trust and reliance on just your own will only, alone, for too long... which is what the law makes worse (or not the law itself, but our assumptions about it now, and over the ages)... Doesn't bring you closer to God, but only puts up a dividing wall between you... And you could be or become separate or separated from God....

Anyway, I could go on but I'll stop there...

God Bless!

 

[Kenny'sID]

They have fallen away from "Grace" (and went back to law) is what (temptation, sin) Paul is "specifically talking about" here, in it's context...

Please point us to the scripture you refer to there?

 

[Neogaia777]

Please point us to the scripture you refer to there?

The book of Hebrews, Hebrews 6, and Hebrews 6:1-6...

The dead works in Hebrews 6:1, are works of the Law... And He is talking about Grace in Hebrews 6:4, which is the Heavenly Gift, and the Holy Spirit also... To renew them again, ect, to repent of or for that, ect, ect...

God Bless!

 

[Kenny'sID]

The book of Hebrews, Hebrews 6, and Hebrews 6:1-6...

The dead works in Hebrews 6:1, are works of the Law... And He is talking about Grace in Hebrews 6:4, the Heavenly Gift, and the Holy Spirit also... To renew them again, ect, to repent of or for that, ect, ect...

God Bless!

Let me approach tis from another angle, are you saying we can sin as we like and still get to heaven? I ask because the commandments, assuming that is the law you mention, they define sin.

Second question, what do you consider "works" is being good works? IOW, not sinning and taking care of the poor for instance...is that works?

And number three...Is salvation unconditional?

 

[ml5363]

Of course they can.

Read the scripture where Jesus explains the parable of the sower and find this, the first 3 verses:

Luke 8:11-15 King James Version (KJV)
"11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."

We all know the seed is Gods word, and if you look closely at the second verse, you'll see they "heard" the word but the devil snatched it away before they had a chance to receive it, and be saved.

But the third verse, they heard and "believed" or were clearly saved for awhile, but were temped to the point they would "fall away" from their salvation.

Now the first thing those that choose no to believe that will do (and this or other parts of this post, are not necessarily directed at you, ml5363) is attack the fact that they were saved at all. That is of course clear to me, and others, but they will try to confuse that one issue, however, if they didn't "fall away" from salvation, what did they fall away from?

Then there is this comment.

James 5:19-20 New International Version (NIV)
19 My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

Those people are "brothers and sisters", or saved people, and the fallen in this case is "one of you" or were saved like the rest of them. Now, if that saved person was "brought back" they had to have been gone from something, and in context, that can only have been their salvation.

Now I realize some of you are thinking "Well Duh, the meanings there is obvious" but I tell you, once some get on the kick they are saved forever no matter what they do, they don't take kindly to someone trying to convince them otherwise. They will fight the obvious truth tooth and nail, and will choose not to believe what was just quoted from the Bible They will throw all kinds of nonsense at the clear and simple truth. That's the reason I explain what is obvious to most, so a child can understand it.

They badly want to believe the very selfish, "We can do as we like and still go to heaven", because it's more fun then being obedient to God. At least that's been my experience with OSASr's, some of the meanest most ungodly selfish people I've had the displeasure of being around... and all because they can, at least in their mind.

I guess the scriputure about nothing can pluck us from his hand has no meaning hmm...

I am not gonna argue about this..not like anyone changes their mind right...

But I am not a osas person that believes I have a free pass and live in the world....very few osas folks have that mentality.. have a nice day

 

[Neogaia777]

Let me approach tis from another angle

Yes, please do...

are you saying we can sin as we like and still get to heaven?

No, I am saying however, we have just about "all of it wrong" however... Getting truly free of and from sin, for example, is never dependent upon one's own will, for example...

I ask because the commandments, assuming that is the law you mention, they define sin.

The traditional way we have interpreted it or (mis)applied it, are or is Sin...

Second question, what do you consider "works" is being good works? IOW, not sinning and taking care of the poor for instance...is that works?

There are different kinds of works, both good and bad, but the ones I was talking about in the post you mention was good deeds, or actions, decisions, ect, and their consequences, ect, or for example...

And number three...Is salvation unconditional?

Pretty much... For the believer... but as for the individual "conditions" or circumstances, or whatever; that might be between that person and God, I do not know...?

God Bless!

 

[Kenny'sID]

I guess the scriputure about nothing can pluck us from his hand has no meaning hmm...

I am not gonna argue about this..not like anyone changes their mind right...

But I am not a osas person that believes I have a free pass and live in the world....very few osas folks have that mentality.. have a nice day

You all really need to pay close attention to what these preachers/people are telling you, are they changing the scripture slightly? They must have done that with you because your version is just enough different from the bibles, it can be twisted into meaning what it does to you.

Actual scripture:


John 10:28-30 King James Version (KJV)
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

No man can pull you from God, however you can walk away due to the temptations of the world. Also if we believe OSAS, and are sinning because it's ok for us to do so because we have a free pass not matter what, then we aren't even saved so of course no man an pluck out what isn't there.. We either lost a salvation we once had before we started sinning due to believing the nonsense OSAS teaches, or we always believed that hence we never got on the band wagon to begin with.

See, Jesus tells us this, and he tells it to all of us, no matter what we think is true:

John 5:28-29 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Do any of you see any acceptations there at all? Exceptions for, say... free tickets that allow some into Heaven even if they don't do good? If anyone has deluded themselves into believing that verse means they still have that free ticket, I'm very afraid you got your tickets destination reversed somewhere along the line.

 

[Kenny'sID]

And number three...Is salvation unconditional?

Pretty much... For the believer... but as for the individual "conditions" or circumstances, or whatever; that might be between that person and God, I do not know...?

God Bless!

I only need comment to that, and would ask if the following indicates the condition of doing good in order to make it to Heaven, or not?:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

And remember who is warning us there, Jesus himself. Also, you mentioned "For the believer" there...do you believe in/believe Jesus?

 

[Neogaia777]

Yeah, look at all those people who think they are saved, and are even confident in that, how dare they, Ha, they are not saved, we know they are sinners and sin greatly, and "we" are the saved ones, not "them", how dare they...

Hardly any of the people you like to talk about think "sin is ok" or anything.... you just say that from "your own dark place in your own heart"... as is the above as well...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Yeah, look at all those people who think they are saved, and are even confident in that, how dare they, Ha, they are not saved, we know they are sinners and sin greatly, and "we" are the saved ones, not "them", how dare they...

Hardly any of the people you like to talk about think "sin is ok" or anything.... you just say that from "your own dark place in your own heart"... as is the above as well...

God Bless!

I am not one them though, but don't have any problems with them, and even wouldn't mind being one of them, I just know I'm not one of them, (I'm not that bold or confident) and/but also, and because of that, don't judge them either, and neither should you, or we, or any of us ever...

God Bless!

 

[Kenny'sID]

Yeah, look at all those people who think they are saved, and are even confident in that, how dare they, Ha, they are not saved, we know they are sinners and sin greatly, and "we" are the saved ones, not "them", how dare they...

Hardly any of the people you like to talk about think "sin is ok" or anything.... you just say that from "your own dark place in your own heart"... as is the above as well...

God Bless!

IOW, you can't/won't answer the simple question about a very simple/understandable piece of scripture, but instead attempt to confuse the issue with rantings of how I'm in a dark place with absolutely nothing to back that up. Perfect, and thanks for being a good example.

I think I've made my point to those who are not so far gone they cannot see.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Hardly any of the people you like to talk about think "sin is ok" or anything

First, it has been my experiences OSASr's are some of the meanest people there are... they can be worse than some Atheists because they are confident no matter what they do, they are going to be fine, and I don't believe Atheists are that confident.

Number two, I have said here more than once that I wonder what sins OSASr's prefer so badly, and never once got a protest. It's as if they all or most of them are doing something ongoing that would send them to hell if they didn't pretend they had that free ticket to heaven.

And of course, they actually will say no sin is OK just like you say, but living in that sin still won't send them to hell in their mind. So you defend them all you like, but I wouldn't be caught dead defending any part of such a dangerous theology.

 

[Blade]

I put mine somewhere...still looking for it...JK

"renew them unto repentance" this is those that TASTED... they never received it. To bring them back.. well they looked at it.. tasted it and WHY would they come back now? Where as lets say YOU and ME..did you just TASTED of GOD? No...you have received.. you believe.

I really pray we would be VERY careful when talking about this.. some come on so strong (not now) and dont think of the weak in faith.. that can be moved so easily. Not grounded YET

 

[DeepWater]

The reason you can't lose your salvation, is because its not yours to lose.
Your Salvation, is God's Grace, manifested as you becoming born again, based on Christ's blood being shed for you.
So, you are receiving what God has done for you, because Christ died to provide it, for free.
So, what part of that is you?
NONE !
Salvation is something that GOD applies to you, that allows Him to accept you.
So, what part of that did you do?
NONE of it. !
Read Philippians 1:6 and understand GRACE.

And the reason people want to argue about it, and others want to jump around from forum to forum trying to talk other believers out of their eternal security, is because they are self righteous, instead of Christ righteous, and also... its because these carnal types, IF they are actually saved, .......they do not understand Grace, and do not care to understand it.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I put mine somewhere...still looking for it...JK

I know, right? We have to keep a very close eye on it for the rest of our lives, but as long as we treat it right, feed, and keep it healthy by doing the right thing it will never die or leave us.

 

[Kenny'sID]

The reason you can't lose your salvation, is because its not yours to lose.
Your Salvation,

Interesting take, but if it's not ours, regardless of your other comments, we have no salvation.

So I'm thinking that may not be correct.

 

[Neogaia777]

First, it has been my experiences OSASr's are some of the meanest people there are... they can be worse than some Atheists because they are confident no matter what they do, they are going to be fine, and I don't believe Atheists are that confident.

Number two, I have said here more than once that I wonder what sins OSASr's prefer so badly, and never once got a protest. It's as if they all or most of them are doing something ongoing that would send them to hell if they didn't pretend they had that free ticket to heaven.

And of course, they actually will say no sin is OK just like you say, but living in that sin still won't send them to hell in their mind. So you defend them all you like, but I wouldn't be caught dead defending any part of such a dangerous theology.

Look, you don't know them and I don't know them, or their heart, but God does...

Judgement is very tricky, and extremely complicated and is not something "we" should be doing if we can avoid it at all, and whenever, in my opinion...

Now, I don't think it's wise to be so or feel so secure in your salvation, especially when and if your not at peace, that you know for 100% sure you saved, ect... But, there is a difference between "confidence" and "arrogance"...

I don't think you should be judging them like that though, cause that's not true of all of them, and I happen to know it's not...

We all sin, and it our admission of that, and our attitude about it both during and afterward, is what is going to mean anything, more than anything... as far as God goes, or with God...

God Bless!