Who knows what the great falling away is?
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good4u
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What is the "great falling away" of the church?
I can answer that.
Then I will answer when.
The "great falling away" is when counterfeit Christians who always have been associated with the Church, become known publically to the Church. Counterfeits and geninue Christians live within the Church and will be separated during the end-times. So even today we have this state of counterfeits and true Christians within the Church. This is what Christ meant when he gave the parable of the "wheat and tares" word picture.
When does this "falling away" happen?
Despite many views on end times, the Church will indeed endure the "great tribulation" which will be advanced by the Anti-Christ. Why must the Church endure this from the Anti-Christ? Because this is God's great "sifting machine" of the world-wide church at this time. This will determine to all, both in heaven and on earth, who truly is Christian and who truly is not. Otherwise, if the Church were to be taken out of the world b/4 her tribulation, we would have counterfeits in heaven. No way would God allow this!!!! So you see, it is better to be forewarned now than totally surprised later. To be forewarned is to be forearmed. Amen and amen!!!!
Any questions?
I can answer that.
Then I will answer when.
The "great falling away" is when counterfeit Christians who always have been associated with the Church, become known publically to the Church. Counterfeits and geninue Christians live within the Church and will be separated during the end-times. So even today we have this state of counterfeits and true Christians within the Church. This is what Christ meant when he gave the parable of the "wheat and tares" word picture.
When does this "falling away" happen?
Despite many views on end times, the Church will indeed endure the "great tribulation" which will be advanced by the Anti-Christ. Why must the Church endure this from the Anti-Christ? Because this is God's great "sifting machine" of the world-wide church at this time. This will determine to all, both in heaven and on earth, who truly is Christian and who truly is not. Otherwise, if the Church were to be taken out of the world b/4 her tribulation, we would have counterfeits in heaven. No way would God allow this!!!! So you see, it is better to be forewarned now than totally surprised later. To be forewarned is to be forearmed. Amen and amen!!!!
Any questions?
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Knee V
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Jesus said that many would turn away, the love of many would grow cold, etc. But what is the context behind which he said these things? The entire conversation, in all three synoptic gospels, is sparked by a discussion of the temple.
"Look at that great temple," the disciples said.
"Well you know what, it's going to be destroyed," Jesus answered.
"No kiddin'? When's that going to happen?"
The temple was going to be destroyed, and the disciples wanted to know when. Jesus talks about this "falling away" in light of their question of the timing of the temple's destruction. The great apostasy was a first century event and was a sign of the nearness of Jerusalem's destruction. The New Testament is full of examples of individuals and churches experiencing this.
"Look at that great temple," the disciples said.
"Well you know what, it's going to be destroyed," Jesus answered.
"No kiddin'? When's that going to happen?"
The temple was going to be destroyed, and the disciples wanted to know when. Jesus talks about this "falling away" in light of their question of the timing of the temple's destruction. The great apostasy was a first century event and was a sign of the nearness of Jerusalem's destruction. The New Testament is full of examples of individuals and churches experiencing this.
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rwc109
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dear good4u,
Rev 7:4-b makes it clear that tribal Israel are the firstfruits, the first redeemed, the whetta separated at last fro the tares, then Rev7:9-10 makes it clear that the new covenant church from the agreement with israel [Jer 31:31-34] will save all the other people, whether they call themselves christians or not
Rev 7:4-b makes it clear that tribal Israel are the firstfruits, the first redeemed, the whetta separated at last fro the tares, then Rev7:9-10 makes it clear that the new covenant church from the agreement with israel [Jer 31:31-34] will save all the other people, whether they call themselves christians or not
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rwc109
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dear KneeV
the destruction of the temple , just as the tearing of the veil of the temple is merely representing the end of the usefulness of the Levitical priesthood, so that the body of the church was no loger associated with the temple, but in the PEOPLE of the House of Judah {Jews]to whom Jesus spoke directly and the lost sheep , the scattered , by then Gentile, House of Israel towhom ,as Jesus said, solely he was sent by God .. thus as it confirms in Acts, he sent the mostly Jewish apostles forth to reach the House of Israel scattered amongst all nations....
Now the remnant then of these two Houses of the original NATION of Israel is the congregation of God, the firstfruts as listed in Rev 7:1-8
who minister as royal priests {1Peter 2:9] to redeem the rest of the nations [Rev7:9-10]
That leaves the whole of christendom bar these 144,000 of Israel going apostate under the false image of christ [with such notions as salvation now, not after death, after the return of Christ to redeem first Israel [Rev 7{4-8] and then make them priests to redeem everyone else
the destruction of the temple , just as the tearing of the veil of the temple is merely representing the end of the usefulness of the Levitical priesthood, so that the body of the church was no loger associated with the temple, but in the PEOPLE of the House of Judah {Jews]to whom Jesus spoke directly and the lost sheep , the scattered , by then Gentile, House of Israel towhom ,as Jesus said, solely he was sent by God .. thus as it confirms in Acts, he sent the mostly Jewish apostles forth to reach the House of Israel scattered amongst all nations....
Now the remnant then of these two Houses of the original NATION of Israel is the congregation of God, the firstfruts as listed in Rev 7:1-8
who minister as royal priests {1Peter 2:9] to redeem the rest of the nations [Rev7:9-10]
That leaves the whole of christendom bar these 144,000 of Israel going apostate under the false image of christ [with such notions as salvation now, not after death, after the return of Christ to redeem first Israel [Rev 7{4-8] and then make them priests to redeem everyone else
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rwc109
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dear Patrick,
the man of sin is none less than Satan, who originated as the left-hand covering cherub at the throne of God, Lucifer, who manifests as a man and dies as a significantly mortal man at the return of Christ [the right-hand covering cherub] returning to earth :-
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and
down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.
Eze 28:9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
Note thta it says "thou shalt be a man" and that Satan is slain [to be resurrected and 'loosed a little while' at the second resurrection when the vast bulk of humanity is resurrected
Note from Rev7:1-10 that only 144,000 of trbal Israel are redeemed first, the reason is that these are the royal priesthood of 1Peter 2:9 and are only saved first so that they can become the priests who minister t mankind in the grett redemption [Rev 7:9-10] after the second resurrection
the man of sin is none less than Satan, who originated as the left-hand covering cherub at the throne of God, Lucifer, who manifests as a man and dies as a significantly mortal man at the return of Christ [the right-hand covering cherub] returning to earth :-
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and
down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.
Eze 28:9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
Note thta it says "thou shalt be a man" and that Satan is slain [to be resurrected and 'loosed a little while' at the second resurrection when the vast bulk of humanity is resurrected
Note from Rev7:1-10 that only 144,000 of trbal Israel are redeemed first, the reason is that these are the royal priesthood of 1Peter 2:9 and are only saved first so that they can become the priests who minister t mankind in the grett redemption [Rev 7:9-10] after the second resurrection
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rwc109
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Thw former and latter 'rain' refer to the holy spirit...
In the OT we find the former rain associated with the old covenant with Israel
The old covenant is largely ineffective at redeeming but God calls Jesus by pouring out His spirit on Jesus and thus Jesus fulfills the old covenant and by right then as King brings in the new covenant with Israel [Jer 31:31-34]
So Jesus talks to the House of Judah [the Jews] and sends them forth to take the news of Israel's Messiah manifested in him to the "lost sheep" the scattered and by then 'gentile' House of Israel [the larger non-Jewish part of the nation of Israel that was scattered by god amongst all gentile natins of the world and given up by Him to worshipping other Gods - but He was just "sifting" them through the nations as the bible puts it
So the latter rain falls on the remanat of Isarel , both Jews and Gentiles [and many strangers get caught up ine teh splahes from th rain too, many others are called , but only the few of Isreal are the chosen, many other gentiles can eat the scraps the fall from the table set by Chrsit for the children of Israel...
but note in Rev 7:1-8 that BEFORE the great redemption [Rev 7:9-10] that it is teh remanant of just 144,000 of tribal [genetic] Israel who are first redeemed [at Christ's return] to be te royal priesthood ministering to the redemption of all natons through Jesus Christ
Thus the strange idae of many that God only saves a select few is proven very wrong just by Rev 7:9-10 ... how come people don't read it for themselves , yet believe apostate priesthoods that deny what scripture says?
I know it is inevitable, the apostasy is prophesied after all, but with so many bibles in the world, you would think more people would notice that the churches are keeping days, but not the scriptural holy days of God....
Eventually though , after the second resurrection in the new earth and heavens, the holy spirit of truth is rained, poured out, on ALL flesh
... eveyone gets to repent, and God comes down to live with mankind in New Jerusalem, the people just flock to hime in droves and Israel are the priests ministering in this great redemption of the whole craetion to the God of Love, the final Glory of God in praise for Him and His plan by EVERYONE
In the OT we find the former rain associated with the old covenant with Israel
The old covenant is largely ineffective at redeeming but God calls Jesus by pouring out His spirit on Jesus and thus Jesus fulfills the old covenant and by right then as King brings in the new covenant with Israel [Jer 31:31-34]
So Jesus talks to the House of Judah [the Jews] and sends them forth to take the news of Israel's Messiah manifested in him to the "lost sheep" the scattered and by then 'gentile' House of Israel [the larger non-Jewish part of the nation of Israel that was scattered by god amongst all gentile natins of the world and given up by Him to worshipping other Gods - but He was just "sifting" them through the nations as the bible puts it
So the latter rain falls on the remanat of Isarel , both Jews and Gentiles [and many strangers get caught up ine teh splahes from th rain too, many others are called , but only the few of Isreal are the chosen, many other gentiles can eat the scraps the fall from the table set by Chrsit for the children of Israel...
but note in Rev 7:1-8 that BEFORE the great redemption [Rev 7:9-10] that it is teh remanant of just 144,000 of tribal [genetic] Israel who are first redeemed [at Christ's return] to be te royal priesthood ministering to the redemption of all natons through Jesus Christ
Thus the strange idae of many that God only saves a select few is proven very wrong just by Rev 7:9-10 ... how come people don't read it for themselves , yet believe apostate priesthoods that deny what scripture says?
I know it is inevitable, the apostasy is prophesied after all, but with so many bibles in the world, you would think more people would notice that the churches are keeping days, but not the scriptural holy days of God....
Eventually though , after the second resurrection in the new earth and heavens, the holy spirit of truth is rained, poured out, on ALL flesh
... eveyone gets to repent, and God comes down to live with mankind in New Jerusalem, the people just flock to hime in droves and Israel are the priests ministering in this great redemption of the whole craetion to the God of Love, the final Glory of God in praise for Him and His plan by EVERYONE
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rwc109
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dera kingskid,
Even Peter denied Christ and not just once either
This is sybolic of the denial of God by Israel repeatedly until God IMPLEMENTS the new covenant with Israel, [see Jer 31:31-34]
It is predestinated, the chosen I44,000 have no choice in it and they are the only ones kept suuficiently righteous ['saints'] to be able to resist the antichrist [and they are redeemed first to become the only real priests of the enw covenant [see Rev 7:1-8]
Even Peter denied Christ and not just once either
This is sybolic of the denial of God by Israel repeatedly until God IMPLEMENTS the new covenant with Israel, [see Jer 31:31-34]
It is predestinated, the chosen I44,000 have no choice in it and they are the only ones kept suuficiently righteous ['saints'] to be able to resist the antichrist [and they are redeemed first to become the only real priests of the enw covenant [see Rev 7:1-8]
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rwc109
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dear Snor Snor,
the question is 'What is the real faith'
It comes down inthe end to whether one believes the exegesis framed around traditions dating back to the Roman takeover of the church or the scriptures
The blatant evidences to me are that the scriptural priesthood is ROYAL and Israel [ see 1Peter 2:9], that there is no mortal priesthhod concerning salvation/redemption in the new covenant [the only purpose of the basically Jewish apostollic church was to take the good news of their Messiah, Jesus , to the 'gentile' scattered lost sheep of the House of Israel [the much larger non-Jewish part of the NATION of Israel, scattered by God to become gentiles "amongst all nations" but promised by God that He would redeem them fom there....
That promise is cONFIRMED in Jesus Christ's own revealatio chap 7 verses 1-10, the remnant of tribal [genetic] Israel is listed eXPLICITLY as being redeemed first, thus these are the immortal priest-kings that minister in redemption of the countless billions of mankind after the second resurrection [Rev 7:9-10]
the question is 'What is the real faith'
It comes down inthe end to whether one believes the exegesis framed around traditions dating back to the Roman takeover of the church or the scriptures
The blatant evidences to me are that the scriptural priesthood is ROYAL and Israel [ see 1Peter 2:9], that there is no mortal priesthhod concerning salvation/redemption in the new covenant [the only purpose of the basically Jewish apostollic church was to take the good news of their Messiah, Jesus , to the 'gentile' scattered lost sheep of the House of Israel [the much larger non-Jewish part of the NATION of Israel, scattered by God to become gentiles "amongst all nations" but promised by God that He would redeem them fom there....
That promise is cONFIRMED in Jesus Christ's own revealatio chap 7 verses 1-10, the remnant of tribal [genetic] Israel is listed eXPLICITLY as being redeemed first, thus these are the immortal priest-kings that minister in redemption of the countless billions of mankind after the second resurrection [Rev 7:9-10]
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Knee V
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rwc109,
I will agree that the destruction of the temple was ALSO symbolic of the fact that we no longer need a Levitical priesthood and that we're no longer associated with the physical temple.
However, the destruction of the temple is the backdrop of the entire conversation which includes the falling away (along with famines, pestilences, wars and rumors of wars). You cannot just read that there will be a falling away and ignore the context. The falling away was a sign to show that Jerusalem's doom was near.
I will agree that the destruction of the temple was ALSO symbolic of the fact that we no longer need a Levitical priesthood and that we're no longer associated with the physical temple.
However, the destruction of the temple is the backdrop of the entire conversation which includes the falling away (along with famines, pestilences, wars and rumors of wars). You cannot just read that there will be a falling away and ignore the context. The falling away was a sign to show that Jerusalem's doom was near.
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The falling away was a sign to show that Jerusalem's doom was near.
Give that man a cigar.
H
Give that man a cigar.
H
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good4u
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I have a question for you...what does your answer have to do with the topic? I don't understand the relevance of your post. Care to explain?rwc109 said:
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good4u,
How is it erronous? It is a straightforeward interpretation that takes into account context of the discussion, time frame references, and other biblical passages with similar language, things which dispensationalism doesn't do here (Forgive me if you're not dispensational. The whole Dallas Theological Seminary thing is what I'm going off of).
How is it erronous? It is a straightforeward interpretation that takes into account context of the discussion, time frame references, and other biblical passages with similar language, things which dispensationalism doesn't do here (Forgive me if you're not dispensational. The whole Dallas Theological Seminary thing is what I'm going off of).
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rwc109
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The falling away/apostasy continues to get worse right up to the return of Christ , through the age of the antichrist [wiith a false image of Christ viz instant salvation/redemption, mortal non-royal priesthoods, keeping of pagan days ,etc in christian churches]
soon we have Satan as the man of sin on earth extraodinarily rapidly rising to world power by leading a [long-awaited] UNIFICATION of religion behind this image of Chris and the keeping of Sunday['sign/mark of the beast'] in place of God's holy sabbath [ancient mark /sign of God]
The significance being that God's holy days carry the blessing of the hly spirit of truth whilst pagan days as kept by christain churches do not of course , thus one cannot 'buy oil ' [righteousness/Love] unless one keeps the holy days rather than keeping pagan days!
Thus we see how the "division" of mankind described by Jesus Christ occurs , it is the distiction between following pagan traditions and following what is holy to God according to the scriptures...
we see this significance of the true holy sabbath in the FUTURE in action in the endtime prophecies of Isaiah :-
Isa 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
Isa 56:5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
Isa 56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
soon we have Satan as the man of sin on earth extraodinarily rapidly rising to world power by leading a [long-awaited] UNIFICATION of religion behind this image of Chris and the keeping of Sunday['sign/mark of the beast'] in place of God's holy sabbath [ancient mark /sign of God]
The significance being that God's holy days carry the blessing of the hly spirit of truth whilst pagan days as kept by christain churches do not of course , thus one cannot 'buy oil ' [righteousness/Love] unless one keeps the holy days rather than keeping pagan days!
Thus we see how the "division" of mankind described by Jesus Christ occurs , it is the distiction between following pagan traditions and following what is holy to God according to the scriptures...
we see this significance of the true holy sabbath in the FUTURE in action in the endtime prophecies of Isaiah :-
Isa 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
Isa 56:5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
Isa 56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
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rwc109
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OK, here we go again... there is ONLY one holy nation before Gods, Israel :-good4u said:
1Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
Thus as Rev 7:1-8 shows , tribal Israel eventually gets a reprieve from God [except Dan and Ephraim who did abominations] and ARE the 144.000 firstfruits
Thus we see that the royal [IMMORTAL KINGS!] priesyhood is all made up of Israel that MINISTERS i redemption [Rev 7:9-10] after the Millenium
Clearly then the apostasy of the modern christianity includes projecting a false image of salvation through the christian churches INSTEAD OF WHAT WILL HAPPEN , that the new covenant is with Israel , specifically this 144,000 and the church is thus Israel NOT the billion or so of modern apostate christianity
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