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Who knows what the great falling away is?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by sarkazma, Mar 1, 2002.

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  1. sarkazma

    sarkazma New Member

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    any ideas?
     
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  2. Snor Snor

    Snor Snor Servant of Jesus Christ

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    Hehe, I was searching for a verse to find on the subject, and then just said, "Where is it, God?" Then, in about 3 seconds afterwards, I saw it. So, thanks, God :)

    I believe the great falling away that Paul spoke about is the Church (All believers in the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ) will lose many believers. Like someone I know said, it won't be little-by-little, but a big burp, and very noticable.

    Matthew 24:10 - "At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, . . ."

    Hehe, now He helped me with them quotation marks. Thanks again, God :D :) :p

    God bless you and good night! :)
     
  3. sarkazma

    sarkazma New Member

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    thanks a lot, you are a great help :clap:
     
  4. placesofrefuge

    placesofrefuge New Member

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    :kiss: :mad: :sleep: :eek: I have a book called "Re-Thinking the Rapture" by E. Schuyler English, written in the 1950's which says "a falling away" in Greek is he apostasia, from which we get the word "apostasy". However, this book takes us back to old works and Bibles from the 1500's! Even though they have "Olde English" spelling, like "a departynge", the original meanings were "a departure, departing, removal, disappearance, to disappear". He further expounds that even the departure doesn't necessarily mean from the faith, but it could. In a choice, the preferred definition was "disappearance". So the conclusion is that in today's terms, "a falling away", which is only found in 2 Thess. 2:3, means "Rapture" or "Rebellion", with the former meaning the preferred one, in older writings!! :clap: :hug: :wave: :D ----placesofrefuge
     
  5. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    But the Greek word for "falling away" is apostasia. It means apostasy. I believe Paul is referring to the same departure from the faith that he refers to in 1 Timothy 4:1 and which Jesus refers to in Matthew 24:10-12.

    In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, I believe Paul makes clear that the apostasy and abomination of desolation must occur before the day Jesus comes to gather us together, for Jesus' coming to gather us together must destroy the Antichrist (verse 8). I believe Paul is referring to the same coming and gathering together as Matthew 24:29-31. I don't believe Paul taught a 3rd coming or a 2nd rapture.

    Some say apostasia can also refer to "a physical departure." But apostasia (2 Thessalonians 2:3) isn't used in the Bible or in other ancient Greek literature to refer to people departing from a physical location, but is used in the ancient Greek translation of the Old Testament (for example, Joshua 22:22, 2 Chronicles 29:19, Jeremiah 2:19) and in the New Testament (Acts 21:21) to refer to people departing from their religion. Look at its primary definition and you will see why: "defection, revolt, especially in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy."


    http://www.geocities.com/postrib
     
  6. placesofrefuge

    placesofrefuge New Member

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    Wrong! 2 THess 2 not to be shaken in mind or in spirit and don't let anyone decieve you, because THAT DAY- the DAY OF CHRIST OR THE DAY OF THE LORD, meaning darkness, God's WRATH, will not come except there come a FALLING AWAY FIRST, and that man of sin be revealed. THe coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto him is a REASON not to be shaken or troubled. The last verse of chapter 2 says to COMFORT your hearts with this, and the preceding verses say US and THEM!US= those who will be removed from THAT DAY, the day the Antichrist reigns, and THEM, those who will be around and be deceived. So THAT DAY, the horrible day of the Lord, will not come except two things happen before THAT DAY- the falling away and the revealing of the Antichrist. Just the opposite of what you claim, "Posttrib"! :idea: ----placesofrefuge
     
  7. kingskid

    kingskid Kid of the Most High

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    I believe it is a denial of Jesus Christ after proclaiming Him. Whether in a known way or even a forced way or tricked way.

    Like I heard a story once where a man had been forced to deny Jesus or else loose his life. Well he denied Jesus, but his wife said he was about to loose his mind and had to go back and proclaim Him Lord to the same people a few weeks later.
     
  8. DuskDove

    DuskDove New Member

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    APOSTACY...and FEW know they are in it. Its been happening for HUNDREDS of years and no one seems to even notice. No one CARES to notice. They are involved with their OWN lives and pleasures and care NOTHING about whats going on around them.
     
  9. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    I have always thought that the "falling away" , was referring to many of the believers in the tribulation. The beast will be given the power to overcome the saints (not church), and every one will have to choose between faith in Jesus, or to give their allegience to the beast by receiving his mark. Many will walk away from the truth, and believe the lie. In 2 Thes. 2: 1-12, when it refers to the Day of the Lord, I believe it is referring to the Sabbath of God, the millenium or thousand years of Christs reign on the earth. For a thousand years is but a day to God. I could find the verse, if someone challenges that a day is not a thousand years. When Christ returns in judgment, the world will mourn.
     
  10. camaro540

    camaro540 Regular Member

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    Messianic
    Please have a look at my post in:

    Is this the mark? Read please.

    Patrick
     
  11. Watchman

    Watchman New Member

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    Hi all and God-bless, I believe wholeheartedly that we are in the Apostasy/ falling away. I believe that the falling away is when those who say they belong to Christ live lives contrary to what they preach, if in fact they preach at all. Presently at my place of work myself and a brother in Christ have been getting together and have invited other "professing believers" to fellowship on break and lunch, talking about The Lord or reading the Word but they will have nothing to do with it. They claim that we are too serious and they hide behind the "don't isolate" slogan and pretend to be doing something for Christ by hanging with the unsaved and indulging in the filthy jokes, swearing, etc... How can the unsaved sit with these professing believers and see any freedom or hope in going to church when the very people they see that say they are Christian are living in bondage right before their very eyes? How does the alcoholic see any hope for himself when seeing a Christian indulging in alcohol, even if a small amount , and knowing that for him (the alcoholic) that there is no such thing as "a couple drinks"? Are we to tell the alcoholic that God is a God of moderation or that My God is an all-consuming fire and a God of total freedom!? I know what my Bible says.
    So anyway I got a little preachy but this should give you something to pray about and seek God for the answers. In these wicked days we are living in we all need to spend time with Jesus in our prayer closet and seek and accept ALL THE TRUTH. Be very careful of the back-slidden church who will tell you that Grace is a license to sin! Jude :4 "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness (every form of sin) and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. "
    1 more point if I may...Judgement begins in the House of God. The falling away has to be something tricky, something from hell itself. For a couterfeit Gospel to flourish it has to look like the original. A counterfeit anything has to look so close to the real thing, otherwise it wouldn't sneak through.
    May the LORD of Glory, Jesus Christ be your very source of healing, strength and purpose for the tough days ahead. I want to see you in Heaven, cling to HIM with ALL that you have
    In Christ
    WM
     
  12. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    The apostate christian does not even know they are apostate.

    The only way to fall away from God, is to refuse the work of the Holy Spirit of Truth and Grace in your life. If you do not have the Holy Spirit of God, if you are not filled or full of the Holy Spirit, then you do not have any of God's love or truth in you.

    In the church I attend, we are taking the message to the whole world, that the apostate church does not believe we can live free from sin. The apostate church believes we have no choice but to be sinners, that no one can be perfect. An example of a apostate church would be the bumper sticker that says: "Christians are not perfect just forgiven". This is a direct contradiction to scripture where we are told to be perfect as our Father in Heaven is Perfect. The Bible would not tell us to do something that God does not enable us to do by giving us the needed power and strength to live free from all sin and to abide in Him and HIS love.

    Ephes. 5:27
    that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.

    Zech. 3:4
    Then He answered and spoke to those who stood before Him, saying, "Take away the filthy garments from him." And to him He said, "See, I have removed your iniquity from you, and I will clothe you with rich robes."
     
  13. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    >>How does the alcoholic see any hope for himself when seeing a Christian indulging in alcohol, even if a small amount

    The people God is going to use in this final hour are the ones who actually live the christian life, not those who talk about it.

    Rev. 3:16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.

    What this passage means is that God will NOT use lukewarm christians in any way, shape or form. They can not and they will not represent God. You have to go all the way with God. You can not be in and out, your either for Him or against Him.

    The awesome thing about being used by God is that He does watch over what we say to perform it. So that people will know that we represent God and the truth. Of course this will cause you to be VERY careful what you say. Thanks, JohnR7
     
  14. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    >>APOSTACY...and FEW know they are in it. Its been happening for HUNDREDS of years

    There was a apostasy even at the time of the early rain. It's just that now we are in the latter rain. There is more of the power of God available to us now, then ever before, but also, there is more of a falling away for those who are in rebellion against God.
     
  15. celtic_crusader

    celtic_crusader Crusading Against Jihad

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    Hears my understanding on the great falling away.

    Paul had written a letter previously that gave the impression that jesus was returning in there life time so paul writes a second letter explaining that the second coming of Christ was not in there lifetime because there had to be a great falling away of the Roman Empire first so that man of sin could then take his place and then it is ripe for Christ to return..

    this brings in the apostate age of christianity that has been apostate for atleast 1500 yrs now.

    The Roman Empire did fall away slowly too and the pope is an apostate and the vatican is the apostasy..

    Paul knew this because Daniel and other prophets had predicted the empires that would follow after one another so paul new that rome must fall away so the 10 toes or horns or the 10 Germanic tribes that overthrew Rome eventually could take there part in the prophecy.

    And then danial says there was a little horn that comes out among these 10 kingdoms and he shall change laws and dates and make war with the saints and wear them out.

    So, back to 2 these 2.

    Paul new that rome must fall away first and then the man of sin will take his place deceiving the world with lies and those that follow him are decieved by the lies because they have no love for the truth.

    After Rome fell, the 10 Germanic tribes took the kingdom and from among them came the holy roman emperor (the pope) and they have ruled over the world ever since the great falling away and they will continue to until jesus returns and removes him with the power of his word.

    These kingdoms are with us till this day in the European nations.

    So, the great falling away for me fits perfectly into Daniels line of ruling kingdoms and so I have no doubt that the great falling away was of the roman empire and the man of sin (pope) took his place with the 10 horns afterward and they will remain until the second coming of christ paul says..


    celtic.
     
  16. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Celtic,
    Christ will return in every born again believers lifetime. If you are in Christ, you can not die, EVER. Death has been swallowed up in victory. We can only pass from life, to eternal life. Notice that Jesus liked to use the word sleep, instead of dead. John 11:25-26 will shed some more light on it.
     
  17. rwc109

    rwc109 Active Member

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    This is a very deep topic, so pardon the long post please...

    (1) The priesthood of Melchizedek ,Jesus Christ and the 144,ooo of tribal Isarel, is the new covenant congregation of God, through them everyone else is saved [Rev7:1-10]... this then God's predestinated instrument of redemption/salvation

    (2) Salvation only STARTS with the redemption of the 144,000 of tribal Israel [excluding Dan and Ephraim] so why are we waiting for it, why is there escalating evil in the world? [Rev 7:1-8]

    (3) Clearly then God has not lost control so obviously God has a clear purpose in delaying salvation ... what is it then that has changed AFTER itis all over, after God has redeemed His creation that shows us what His purpose has been?

    (4)Mankind clearly has experienced evil in His life and all have sinned [except Jesus and the righteous few, the 'saints' of Israel] , God then MEANT for man to experience evil and REJECT it for himself...

    (5) Thus God is causing man to PROVE that God is RIGHT by experiencing what God cannot do, i.e. evil, unlovingness, sin...

    (6) God then created mankind explicitly to experience evil and reject ievil BEFORE mankind is REDEEMED through Christ and Israel

    (7) Thus God created evil too , the scripture agrees:-

    Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

    Lamentations 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

    (8) thus God USES evil for good, for the ultimate total praise by His whole creation of Love, what God is, what God stands for, what Jesus showd us that our real father , our origin ,is.

    (9)Thus we are made in the very image of Love, it is what we are, and yet God denies us to be Love for a while in order that we fulfill his purpose in us, to PROVE Him...

    (10)So because there has to be evil created by God to prove Love is right and evil is wrong BY TRYING IT OUT, then there also has to be suffering as a consequence of that evil ...

    (11)Thus we suffer for the sake of proving that God is right, that Love is right

    (12) How then does god cause man not to be Loving, well God created Lucifer who became Satan to tempt man from being what he is by his wiles using the empty values of the body and the world...

    (13) Thus Satan has to be brought before God and fairly tried before salvation can begin, some at least must be freed from temptation before any can be saved, this awesome task of resisting Satan as Jesus did has fallen by God's irrevocable choice and predestinated election to the 144,000 of Israel , they will be the ROYAL priesthood that ministers in redeeming everyone else :-

    1Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

    (14) If then this is the whole instrument required by God for redemption as scripture says, then what role the massive [a billion?] christian churches members ... why this massive organisation of mankind with no role at all in redeeming mankind...?

    (15)The answer is of course that it will take all this billion and MORE ,all praising the antichrist [Satan manifested as a man, as a Christ figure just like jesus the man] before this false christ declares himself to be god and requires all men to worship him as Christ and God...

    (16) tus christianity is apostate to make it vlnerabe to worshipping Christ [but it is the antichrist, the one in place of Christ, the 'vicar' of Christ that they worship...]

    (17) this is quite startling to many, so what other scriptural evidence?

    (18) Much indeed, almost the whole scripture in fact, but let us look at what God said was HOLY ... all the holy days and feasts of God are detailed in the bible ...

    (19)But the Rmans , when Rome took over christianity by force from Jerusalem actually THREW OUT all the HOLY days and feasts!

    (20) Not content with NOT keeping Holy days of God, the romans introduced UNHOLY days in place of the holy days ....

    (21) Thus we have Easter dedicated to a pagan goddess ,Ishtar; with fertility symbols of the eggg and rabbits IN PLACE OF Holy passover which Jesus said was to be kept in remembrance of him if we are WORTHY. [BUT Easter even DENIES that Jesus ket the sign of Jonah ... count it yourself, are there three Hebrew nights and days between Good Friday and Easter Sunday, there are not!]

    (22) We have pagan fertility rite Harvest Festival in place of the holy autumn feasts and days

    (23) we have Roman 'pentecost' counted in Roman-type days instead of teh Hebrew Feast of Weeks]

    (24) The list goes on, every single HOLY DAY , even Holy sabbath of God, has been substituted by a pagan festival dressed up to look vaguely 'christian'

    (25) even pagan winter solstice which was NEVER celebrated by Hebrews or Christ or apostles is dressed up as the 'birthday' of Jesus... ONLY Babylonians had 'birthdays' on account of astrology, Jesus never had a birthday in his life and nobody told anyone in the early church to celebrate any time even near winter solstice .... actually Jesus MUST have been born at lambing time in the spring as this is the ONLY time that shepherds sit around in the fields [even the flocks are INSIDE, not in the fields, in the bitter wintre of teh Holy Land!]

    (26) Thus we see that the churches became unholy at Roman times and have gotten worse, not recovered, a whole [unordained by scripture]mortal priesthood has grown up and we even have leaders of these churches calling themselves 'father', 'pope', etc in BLATANT DEFIANCE of Jesus' COMMAND not to caal anyone such name but God.

    (27) we have anti-scriptural hewn altars in churches, and idols strewn about, a clergy that elects itself and thinks itself SEPARATE from the 'congregation' and looks after itself from church funds before the poor of the earth are served [24,000 human beings still starve to death EVERY DAY on this planet whilst priests get fat and prance around in expensive clothes !!!!! ]

    (28) Well that's it, apostasy is with us and the antichrist will be soon too.... then the astonishingly fast rise to power of Satan the man, followed by the return of Christ to KILL the man Satan and issue in redemption by first redeeming 144,000 of Israel [Rev7:1-10]

    (29) Thus we see that apostasy of the churches has THE MAIN ROLE of God as its very cause , but equally we see that the role of modern christianity is not the redemption that Christ and Israel will acheive according to scriptural prophecy

    (30) We ALL then, every single one of us is INVALUABLE to God in our particular ROLE in life, God loves us all and USES us to serve His purpose in us, even dluding strongly almost everyone to follow the antichrist in order that the ESSENTIAL snaring of satan occurs s that REDEMPTION through Jesus Christ can begin :-

    2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

    A hard scripture to understand until one realises that God created mankind and evil for HIS purpose....

     
  18. Hitch

    Hitch Well-Known Member

    +10
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    It is entirely possible that Paul was talking about the jewish revolt of the first century and the events that would follow which are obviously not connected with the Second Advent.

    Common notions of a world wide falling away are directly contrary to the victorious growing church Jesus speaks of in Mat 13.


    Take care

    Hitch
     
  19. rwc109

    rwc109 Active Member

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    dear Hitch,

    Matt 13 is referring to the growth of the Kingdom of God in the new earth, certainly not to the apostate divided christian churches [that cannot stand because they are divided unlike the Kingdom of God united by the holy spirit of truth]

    Matthew 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

    [see my thread on apostasy of the christian churches and its central role in God's purpose in mankind (but NOTHING to do with salvation as such)]
     
  20. patrick

    patrick New Member

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    Hi all

    There are two words in the greek for temple. The word hieron which is the literal physical building; and the word naos which refers to the spiritual temple. That spiritual temple being the body of Christ your body the temple of the Holy ghost.

    In 2 thess 2 the word used for temple is not the one used to describe the literal temple. But is the word Naos. The temple that is being refereed to is your body. The man who is to be reveiled is not out in the world somewhere He is the man of sin in you that demands to be in charge. And it is when we follow this antichrist spirit of our own desires that hinders the very manifestation of the day of christ in our own lives. We become the Lord of the temple and we decide what we want to do with our lives and how we will serve the Lord. Yet the Lord is the one who is in charge and has the authority. The annointing of God is hindered from becoming fully manifested in our own lives by our desires that we substitue for the direction of the Holy Ghost.

    Anti Christ is anything in our lives that we substitute, put a higher emphasis on intead of Christ, the annointing. The Great falling away is where we do not put christ first. All of us are trying to be in charge. It is only when we see this and repent that the Lord very presence will manifest in our lives destroying the son of perdition in each of us.

    Grace and Peace Patrick
     
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