Who is the woman in Revelations 12?

[bbbbbbb]

1 Kings 2:19 So Bathshe′ba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adoni′jah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought for the king’s mother; and she sat on his right. RSVCE

Yes, and so did almost everyone else at one point or another. Nathan the prophet certainly did, as did various other wives of David. I rather doubt any of his concubines sat on his right, but then not much is revealed about his concubines. The fact that someone sat at the right side of David hardly entitles them to a royal title.

 

[prodromos]

Yes, and so did almost everyone else at one point or another. Nathan the prophet certainly did, as did various other wives of David. I rather doubt any of his concubines sat on his right, but then not much is revealed about his concubines. The fact that someone sat at the right side of David hardly entitles them to a royal title.

Did King David bow down to Nathan, or to any of his wives? Did Nathan sit at King David's right hand? Did any of King David's wives? To bow down before someone is to show deference to them, to submit yourself to them as being above you. To sit at the right hand of the King is to share in his power and authority. A woman who has the authority of the King is called Queen, no?

 

[Valletta]

Yes, and so did almost everyone else at one point or another. Nathan the prophet certainly did, as did various other wives of David. I rather doubt any of his concubines sat on his right, but then not much is revealed about his concubines. The fact that someone sat at the right side of David hardly entitles them to a royal title.

LOL The mother of the king is royalty, it was a special position. Didn't you at least wonder why the name of the mother of the king is mentioned so often in Kings? It was a special position in the Jewish culture.

 

[Mountainmike]

Unfortunately, you only have Catholic theological spin to justify the concept of an Old Testament queen mother. It was literally impossible for Bathsheba to have had that title unless there were no qualifications other than being a mother of a king of Israel.

But she was mother of a king of Israel! Not just any King. But the line of David.
And the annunciation says "The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David"
Jesus was at pains to point out his connection to that dynasty by riding on a donkey as Solomon had done. Jesus knew that first century jews all looked for meaning in the OT, thats why he did it.

In short, it is not "catholic spin" - it is the literal meaning of the OT and the NT gospel annunciation!
And solomon says to his queen - "i will do whatever you ask" fulfilled at Cana. Where Jesus says "woman, what have you to do with me now? My time has not yet come" ie not yet. Jesus's time has now come.

Yet all you have on revelations 12 to pretend it means tribes of israel is a number! 12.

So on literal meaning and points of similarity Catholics (ie early church inc orthodox) 10. Protestants 1

 

[Major1]

JL: There are several Scriptures teaching Apostolic Succession. It is true, in Protestant denominations laying on of hands doesn’t equal Apostolic Succession. Protestants do not have it to pass on. However, Catholics, Orthodox and I think Coptic’s all have valid Apostolic Succession. To the best of my knowledge all have the same seven sacraments. A sacrament brings about the grace gift it signifies by the action of the Holy Spirit.

[2Tm1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands. 7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.]k

[1Tm4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. 14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. 15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. 16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.]k

[Titus1:4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. 5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: 6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. 7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;]k

[Acts14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.]k

[Acts20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.]k

[1Tm5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.]k

[Titus2:15 these things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.]k

[Hb13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.]k

[Hb13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.]k

[1Jn4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.]k

I don’t find a valid minister in the New Covenant who was not appointed=ordained and sent directly by Christ including Paul or sent by laying on of hands in the unbroken apostolic line by an apostle or one they ordained. KJV Biblegateway.

NOPE. Not one single Scripture says anything about succession. Did you read those before posting them????

I can not help but wonder what you were thinking when you took the time to go and find them when they do not support your opinion.

 

[jamiec]

I am leaning towards the idea that

Rev 12 shows what God made of Israel/Judah

Rev 17 shows what she became

Both of those are on Earth

Rev 21.9 shows “the new Jerusalem....the wife of the
Lamb”.

The new Jerusalem, in contrast to the other two, comes down from Heaven

that in Rev 12, the woman is Israel/Judah in the past, described broadly as in Ezekiel 16.8-14:

8Then I passed by and saw you, and you were indeed old enough for love. So I spread My cloak over you and covered your nakedness. I pledged Myself to you, entered into a covenant with you, and you became Mine, declares the Lord GOD. 9Then I bathed you with water, rinsed off your blood, and anointed you with oil. 10I clothed you in embroidered cloth and gave you sandals of fine leather. I wrapped you in fine linen and covered you with silk. 11I adorned you with jewelry, and I put bracelets on your wrists and a chain around your neck. 12I put a ring in your nose, earrings on your ears, and a beautiful crown upon your head.

13So you were adorned with gold and silver, and your clothing was made of fine linen, silk, and embroidered cloth. You ate fine flour, honey, and oil. You became very beautiful and rose to be queen. 14Your fame spread among the nations on account of your beauty, for it was perfect in the splendor I bestowed on you, declares the Lord GOD.

The mention of the dragon, and the waters, is consistent with an identification of the Woman of 12 as Israel/Judah.

that in Rev 17, the same woman is Israel/Judah in the 1st-century present, broadly as in Ezekiel 16.15-26:

15But because of your fame, you trusted in your beauty and played the harlot. You lavished your favors on everyone who passed by, and your beauty was theirs for the asking. 16You took some of your garments and made colorful high places for yourself, and on them you prostituted yourself. Such things should not have happened; never should they have occurred!

17You also took the fine jewelry of gold and silver I had given you, and you made male idols with which to prostitute yourself. 18You took your embroidered garments to cover them, and you set My oil and incense before them. 19And you set before them as a pleasing aroma the food I had given you—the fine flour, oil, and honey that I had fed you. That is what happened, declares the Lord GOD.

20You even took the sons and daughters you bore to Me and sacrificed them as food to idols. Was your prostitution not enough? 21You slaughtered My children and delivered them up through the fire to idols.

22And in all your abominations and acts of prostitution, you did not remember the days of your youth when you were naked and bare, wallowing in your own blood.

23Woe! Woe to you, declares the Lord GOD. And in addition to all your other wickedness, 24you built yourself a mound and made yourself a lofty shrine in every public square. 25At the head of every street you built your lofty shrines and degraded your beauty. With increasing promiscuity, you spread your legs to all who passed by. 26You prostituted yourself with your lustful neighbors, the Egyptians, and increased your promiscuity to provoke Me to anger.

that in Rev 21.9, the “new Jerusalem”, the “bride of the Lamb”, is the Heavenly city of God & community of the redeemed (including Israel/Judah) in the eschatological future. The earthly Jerusalem of human experience is a corruptible & passing approximation to, and copy of, the Jerusalem that “comes down from Heaven”.

 

[Major1]

I am leaning towards the idea that

Rev 12 shows what God made of Israel/Judah

Rev 17 shows what she became

Both of those are on Earth

Rev 21.9 shows “the new Jerusalem....the wife of the
Lamb”.

The new Jerusalem, in contrast to the other two, comes down from Heaven

that in Rev 12, the woman is Israel/Judah in the past, described broadly as in Ezekiel 16.8-14:

8Then I passed by and saw you, and you were indeed old enough for love. So I spread My cloak over you and covered your nakedness. I pledged Myself to you, entered into a covenant with you, and you became Mine, declares the Lord GOD. 9Then I bathed you with water, rinsed off your blood, and anointed you with oil. 10I clothed you in embroidered cloth and gave you sandals of fine leather. I wrapped you in fine linen and covered you with silk. 11I adorned you with jewelry, and I put bracelets on your wrists and a chain around your neck. 12I put a ring in your nose, earrings on your ears, and a beautiful crown upon your head.

13So you were adorned with gold and silver, and your clothing was made of fine linen, silk, and embroidered cloth. You ate fine flour, honey, and oil. You became very beautiful and rose to be queen. 14Your fame spread among the nations on account of your beauty, for it was perfect in the splendor I bestowed on you, declares the Lord GOD.

The mention of the dragon, and the waters, is consistent with an identification of the Woman of 12 as Israel/Judah.

that in Rev 17, the same woman is Israel/Judah in the 1st-century present, broadly as in Ezekiel 16.15-26:

15But because of your fame, you trusted in your beauty and played the harlot. You lavished your favors on everyone who passed by, and your beauty was theirs for the asking. 16You took some of your garments and made colorful high places for yourself, and on them you prostituted yourself. Such things should not have happened; never should they have occurred!

17You also took the fine jewelry of gold and silver I had given you, and you made male idols with which to prostitute yourself. 18You took your embroidered garments to cover them, and you set My oil and incense before them. 19And you set before them as a pleasing aroma the food I had given you—the fine flour, oil, and honey that I had fed you. That is what happened, declares the Lord GOD.

20You even took the sons and daughters you bore to Me and sacrificed them as food to idols. Was your prostitution not enough? 21You slaughtered My children and delivered them up through the fire to idols.

22And in all your abominations and acts of prostitution, you did not remember the days of your youth when you were naked and bare, wallowing in your own blood.

23Woe! Woe to you, declares the Lord GOD. And in addition to all your other wickedness, 24you built yourself a mound and made yourself a lofty shrine in every public square. 25At the head of every street you built your lofty shrines and degraded your beauty. With increasing promiscuity, you spread your legs to all who passed by. 26You prostituted yourself with your lustful neighbors, the Egyptians, and increased your promiscuity to provoke Me to anger.

that in Rev 21.9, the “new Jerusalem”, the “bride of the Lamb”, is the Heavenly city of God & community of the redeemed (including Israel/Judah) in the eschatological future. The earthly Jerusalem of human experience is a corruptible & passing approximation to, and copy of, the Jerusalem that “comes down from Heaven”.

Correct. The woman in Rev. 12 = Israel!

 

[Valletta]

I am leaning towards the idea that

Rev 12 shows what God made of Israel/Judah

Rev 17 shows what she became

Both of those are on Earth

Rev 21.9 shows “the new Jerusalem....the wife of the
Lamb”.

The new Jerusalem, in contrast to the other two, comes down from Heaven

that in Rev 12, the woman is Israel/Judah in the past, described broadly as in Ezekiel 16.8-14:

8Then I passed by and saw you, and you were indeed old enough for love. So I spread My cloak over you and covered your nakedness. I pledged Myself to you, entered into a covenant with you, and you became Mine, declares the Lord GOD. 9Then I bathed you with water, rinsed off your blood, and anointed you with oil. 10I clothed you in embroidered cloth and gave you sandals of fine leather. I wrapped you in fine linen and covered you with silk. 11I adorned you with jewelry, and I put bracelets on your wrists and a chain around your neck. 12I put a ring in your nose, earrings on your ears, and a beautiful crown upon your head.

13So you were adorned with gold and silver, and your clothing was made of fine linen, silk, and embroidered cloth. You ate fine flour, honey, and oil. You became very beautiful and rose to be queen. 14Your fame spread among the nations on account of your beauty, for it was perfect in the splendor I bestowed on you, declares the Lord GOD.

The mention of the dragon, and the waters, is consistent with an identification of the Woman of 12 as Israel/Judah.

that in Rev 17, the same woman is Israel/Judah in the 1st-century present, broadly as in Ezekiel 16.15-26:

15But because of your fame, you trusted in your beauty and played the harlot. You lavished your favors on everyone who passed by, and your beauty was theirs for the asking. 16You took some of your garments and made colorful high places for yourself, and on them you prostituted yourself. Such things should not have happened; never should they have occurred!

17You also took the fine jewelry of gold and silver I had given you, and you made male idols with which to prostitute yourself. 18You took your embroidered garments to cover them, and you set My oil and incense before them. 19And you set before them as a pleasing aroma the food I had given you—the fine flour, oil, and honey that I had fed you. That is what happened, declares the Lord GOD.

20You even took the sons and daughters you bore to Me and sacrificed them as food to idols. Was your prostitution not enough? 21You slaughtered My children and delivered them up through the fire to idols.

22And in all your abominations and acts of prostitution, you did not remember the days of your youth when you were naked and bare, wallowing in your own blood.

23Woe! Woe to you, declares the Lord GOD. And in addition to all your other wickedness, 24you built yourself a mound and made yourself a lofty shrine in every public square. 25At the head of every street you built your lofty shrines and degraded your beauty. With increasing promiscuity, you spread your legs to all who passed by. 26You prostituted yourself with your lustful neighbors, the Egyptians, and increased your promiscuity to provoke Me to anger.

that in Rev 21.9, the “new Jerusalem”, the “bride of the Lamb”, is the Heavenly city of God & community of the redeemed (including Israel/Judah) in the eschatological future. The earthly Jerusalem of human experience is a corruptible & passing approximation to, and copy of, the Jerusalem that “comes down from Heaven”.

Rev 12:17 Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea. RSVCE
Do you think that Israel bears testimony to Jesus?

 

[Major1]

Rev 12:17 Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea. RSVCE
Do you think that Israel bears testimony to Jesus?

Now notice the LITERA WORDS of Sripture.............
"on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus."

That is not a reference to the nation of Israel but to those who accept Christ!
ABSOLUTELY.

Also remember, The Bible was Authored by a Jew, Jesus. The entire New Test. was written by Jews.

 

[Valletta]

Thats just your interpretation, based on what you have been taught by Catholicism. Israel is Gods wife, not Mary.

At some secondary level too, as is often the case in the Bible, there are inferences to another description, such as Israel. But do not deny this is a real woman, she has a head to put a crown upon, she wears clothes, she is the mother of the one who will rule with an iron rod.

 

[concretecamper]

And the temple of God was opened in heaven: and the ark of his testament was seen in his temple, and there were lightnings, and voices, and an earthquake, and great hail. And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars

Our Lady of Guadalupe:

 

[Major1]

At some secondary level too, as is often the case in the Bible, there are inferences to another description, such as Israel. But do not deny this is a real woman, she has a head to put a crown upon, she wears clothes, she is the mother of the one who will rule with an iron rod.

READ THE BOOK!

She is Israel because she is associated with the sun, the moon, and twelve stars. These symbols are drawn from Genesis 37:9–11, in which the patriarch Joseph has a dream of the sun and moon (symbolizing his father and mother) and stars (representing his brothers), which bow down to him. Taken together, the sun, moon, and twelve stars symbolize the people of Israel.

 

[Cis.jd]

Revelation 12 MSG;NIV - The Woman, Her Son, and the Dragon - A - Bible Gateway


Is it Mary or the church?

Mary.
Mary was given the title "woman" ever since Genesis, and Jesus has referred to Mary as "woman" many times in scripture. There was only one person the Bible gave the title of "woman" to, and that is Mary.

I don't understand why Protestants claim it's Israel, when the OT clearly shows Israel to be a male since it was the rename of Jacob.

 

[BPPLEE]

Revelation 12 MSG;NIV - The Woman, Her Son, and the Dragon - A - Bible Gateway


Is it Mary or the church?

It's Israel.

 

[Cis.jd]

It's Israel.

It's not Israel. There is too many details that mirror Mary more than Israel. Israel became the name of Jacob, so Israel is not to be symbolized as a woman. Only one person was called woman by Jesus and God the Father, and that is Mary.

Revelation described this woman to be the mother of the messiah, and also the mother of his believers. That brings in Jn 19:26-27, where you have Jesus telling the "beloved disciple" that Mary is his mother. People believe that disciple is John, so the question is why did John write it as "beloved disciple" and not himself? It's because he wanted to make it known that his new relationship with Mary pertains to all Christians. Israel is not the "mother" of all who believe in him, as the majority Jews (or Israel) have not accept Christ even to this day.

 

[BPPLEE]

It's not Israel. There is too many details that mirror Mary more than Israel. Israel became the name of Jacob, so Israel is not to be symbolized as a woman. Only one person was called woman by Jesus and God the Father, and that is Mary.

Revelation described this woman to be the mother of the messiah, and also the mother of his believers. That brings in Jn 19:26-27, where you have Jesus telling the "beloved disciple" that Mary is his mother. People believe that disciple is John, so the question is why did John write it as "beloved disciple" and not himself? It's because he wanted to make it known that his new relationship with Mary pertains to all Christians. Israel is not the "mother" of all who believe in him, as the majority Jews (or Israel) have not accept Christ even to this day.

When did Mary flee into the wilderness for three and a half years?

 

[Cis.jd]

When did Mary flee into the wilderness for three and a half years?

Maybe after the whole Herod thing

 

[Eloy Craft]

When did Mary flee into the wilderness for three and a half years?

John took her there to keep her from the persecution. That's the water that comes out of the dragons mouth that the earth swallowed. Remember the earth swallowed Abel's blood.

 

[BPPLEE]

Maybe after the whole Herod thing

Maybe. I've always read it's Israel that flees into the wilderness during the tribulation. I don't think it makes a huge difference in the grand scheme of things whether you believe this is Israel or Mary. It's not a hill I would choose to die on.

 

[Cis.jd]

Maybe. I've always read it's Israel that flees into the wilderness during the tribulation. I don't think it makes a huge difference in the grand scheme of things whether you believe this is Israel or Mary. It's not a hill I would choose to die on.

How does Israel flee, and why would they be described as the mother of all who follows Christ if the majority of Jewish people don't believe he is the messiah?

As for the 2nd sentence, sure.. but this topic is based on discussing this.