Who is the woman in Revelations 12?

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
27,803
13,115
72
✟362,269.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Two things.
First revelations in part allegorical- it uses images not literal precision.
There is also a presumption that the verse can only have one meaning but typology allows interpretation at multiple levels. It is not necessarily exclusive.

A meaning that fits is Mary.
The devil cast down to lead the world astray.
The son foretold to rule in psalms 2 with a rod of iron.
The flight into Egypt.

Using your understanding, then the woman is also Israel, is she not?
 
Upvote 0

Mountainmike

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Nov 2, 2016
4,614
1,591
66
Northern uk
✟561,129.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Using your understanding, then the woman is also Israel, is she not?

I have not seen the same fit others do, but I know some people hold that view.
When did Israel go into the desert for a limited period after the birth of the child?

One verse I keep going back to in this context is Matt 11:25 - what would a Christian child say?
The meaning israel is too clever by half...
"because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children".
 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
27,803
13,115
72
✟362,269.00
Faith
Non-Denom
I have not seen the same fit others do, but I know some people hold that view.
When did Israel go into the desert for a limited period after the birth of the child?

One verse I keep going back to in this context is Matt 11:25 - what would a Christian child say?
The meaning israel is too clever by half...
"because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children".

For that matter she could be Joseph in the Old Testament with the twelve stars.

Certainly Mary never had twelve stars, although Israel did have twelve stars (sons).
 
Upvote 0

Mountainmike

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Nov 2, 2016
4,614
1,591
66
Northern uk
✟561,129.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
For that matter she could be Joseph in the Old Testament with the twelve stars.

Certainly Mary never had twelve stars, although Israel did have twelve stars (sons).

It was an image. You are being too literal. One explanation:

The stars are around her head, so are a crown , so the lady is a queen. Seen in heaven. So Queen of heaven.

But that’s also what scripture foretells from solomons time: the mother (not spouse ) of a davidic king was given an honorary title of queen and throne with power of intercession. “ I will do whatever you ask” says the king. Jesus was a davidic king,was prophesied and announced as such by the angel, and did all he could to identify himself as such. We see the power of intercession used at Cana. So ( honorary) and genealogical “ queen of heaven” is a biblical title.

The crown fits, and is wonderful imagery, Which lines up with the arceiropoita of Guadalupe and the lady “ more brilliant than the sun” “ clothed with the sun” at Fatima.
 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
27,803
13,115
72
✟362,269.00
Faith
Non-Denom
It was an image. You are being too literal. One explanation:

The stars are around her head, so are a crown , so the lady is a queen. Seen in heaven. So Queen of heaven.

But that’s also what scripture foretells from solomons time: the mother (not spouse ) of a davidic king was given an honorary title of queen and throne with power of intercession. “ I will do whatever you ask” says the king. Jesus was a davidic king,was prophesied and announced as such by the angel, and did all he could to identify himself as such. We see the power of intercession used at Cana. So ( honorary) and genealogical “ queen of heaven” is a biblical title.

The crown fits, and is wonderful imagery, Which lines up with the arceiropoita of Guadalupe and the lady “ more brilliant than the sun” “ clothed with the sun” at Fatima.

One can run down numerous wonderful rabbit trails if one chooses to avoid a literal, or plain, meaning of a text. That is how various heresies develop. The Gnostics decided to latch onto their favorite imagery from scripture and spin anything that contradicted it to fit their view. It actually rather engaging and fun to do so.
 
Upvote 0

Mountainmike

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Nov 2, 2016
4,614
1,591
66
Northern uk
✟561,129.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
One can run down numerous wonderful rabbit trails if one chooses to avoid a literal, or plain, meaning of a text. That is how various heresies develop. The Gnostics decided to latch onto their favorite imagery from scripture and spin anything that contradicted it to fit their view. It actually rather engaging and fun to do so.

Literal plain meaning of text is a woman who bore a child that would rule all nations the “rod of Iron” we know from psalms is Jesus, so the woman is Mary.

As to the imagery , it is secondary. You focus just on the number 12 - I focus on the fact Mary was a davidic queen, and so it could be a crown. What does it change?

My point to you what would a child knowing the gospels say . They too would say Mary. I know I asked some!

Israel is a far bigger stretch. It takes “ wise men “ from whom much is concealed by their wisdom.

Why is it Protestants ignore literal meanings?

“ this IS my body” unless you “ gnaw my flesh “ you have no life in you. That’s what it says. That’s what it means. What was bread became flesh of Jesus. A direct instruction.

Sheep and goats. Direct instructions to do works. And what happens if you don’t.

“ thou art Peter “ “ to you I give the keys” and so on. We assume is the set of keys defined in OT , inherited office, worn on the shoulder symbol of power whilst the king is away.

To be fair to them, Catholics do like literal!
“Woman “ is also the same word referred of Mary at Cana
 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
27,803
13,115
72
✟362,269.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Literal plain meaning of text is a woman who bore a child that would rule all nations the “rod of Iron” we know from psalms is Jesus, so the woman is Mary.

As to the imagery , it is secondary. You focus just on the number 12 - I focus on the fact Mary was a davidic queen, and so it could be a crown. What does it change?

My point to you what would a child knowing the gospels say . They too would say Mary. I know I asked some!

Israel is a far bigger stretch. It takes “ wise men “ from whom much is concealed by their wisdom.

Why is it Protestants ignore literal meanings?

“ this IS my body” unless you “ gnaw my flesh “ you have no life in you. That’s what it says. That’s what it means. What was bread became flesh of Jesus. A direct instruction.

Sheep and goats. Direct instructions to do works. And what happens if you don’t.

“ thou art Peter “ “ to you I give the keys” and so on. We assume is the set of keys defined in OT , inherited office, worn on the shoulder symbol of power whilst the king is away.

To be fair to them, Catholics do like literal!
“Woman “ is also the same word referred of Mary at Cana

No where in the Bible is Mary called a queen of any sort, Davidic or otherwise. Much of your understanding comes from the extrabiblical theology developed by the RCC to glorify Mary.

As you know there are many Marys in the Bible, not just Cana. In fact, the sister of Moses, Miriam, is the first use of that name. Mary and Miriam are the same name in Hebrew. This fact created a problem for Mohammed who assumed that the mother of Jesus Christ was also the sister of Moses. We might think this is absurd but the Holy Q'ran presents it as the absolute truth of Allah.
 
Upvote 0

jamiec

Well-Known Member
Aug 2, 2020
474
215
Scotland
✟42,255.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
It’s a mistake to consider revelatins as chapters, the division came later.
I mentioned the chapter divisions because we use them. That they are not original, goes w/out saying.
In which case the verse before “the woman clothed with the sun” is a vision of “ the ark of the covenant” .
It is - but there is no compelling reason to see the ark as a symbol of the BVM. If the BVM appears immediately after, why does she appear twice in quick succession ?
Mary is the ark of the new covenant, and all else fits.
I see no reason to believe that. I think that such an idea disrupts the symbolism of the book.
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,424
11,977
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,167,232.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Israel is seen as God's wife not Mary. So who else besides God's wife can have His son? Mary was part of Israel but not God's wife. The twelve starts probably represent the 12 tribes.
Bride, not wife.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

IWalkAlone

Well-Known Member
Oct 26, 2021
1,687
310
Ohio
✟11,916.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Bride, not wife.
God is seen as the husband not the groom. So Israel is the wife not the bride.

Isaiah 54:5 For your Maker is your husband—
the Lord Almighty is his name—
the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer;
he is called the God of all the earth.

Jerimiah 31:32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to[d] them,[e]”
declares the Lord.

.
 
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
7,956
2,883
Minnesota
✟207,861.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
No where in the Bible is Mary called a queen of any sort, Davidic or otherwise. Much of your understanding comes from the extrabiblical theology developed by the RCC to glorify Mary.

As you know there are many Marys in the Bible, not just Cana. In fact, the sister of Moses, Miriam, is the first use of that name. Mary and Miriam are the same name in Hebrew. This fact created a problem for Mohammed who assumed that the mother of Jesus Christ was also the sister of Moses. We might think this is absurd but the Holy Q'ran presents it as the absolute truth of Allah.
The Bible is clear. In the Davidic line, starting with Solomon, the mother of the king is the queen.
The Mother of the Jesus, Mary, Mother of God, is thus also the queen.
 
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
7,956
2,883
Minnesota
✟207,861.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I mentioned the chapter divisions because we use them. That they are not original, goes w/out saying.

It is - but there is no compelling reason to see the ark as a symbol of the BVM. If the BVM appears immediately after, why does she appear twice in quick succession ?

I see no reason to believe that. I think that such an idea disrupts the symbolism of the book.
In Revelation the Ark of the Covenant is seen in Heaven, and the very next line is about the Ark of the New Covenant, Mary.
 
Upvote 0

IWalkAlone

Well-Known Member
Oct 26, 2021
1,687
310
Ohio
✟11,916.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The Bible is clear. In the Davidic line, starting with Solomon, the mother of the king is the queen.
The Mother of the Jesus, Mary, Mother of God, is thus also the queen.
Thats just your interpretation, based on what you have been taught by Catholicism. Israel is Gods wife, not Mary.
 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
27,803
13,115
72
✟362,269.00
Faith
Non-Denom
The Bible is clear. In the Davidic line, starting with Solomon, the mother of the king is the queen.
The Mother of the Jesus, Mary, Mother of God, is thus also the queen.

When was the last time you read either I and II Kings or I and II Chronicles? Using your really flawed theology we get women like Jezebel being queen when, in actual fact, she was simply the principle wife (although not the only wife) of Ahab.

Bathsheba was never queen with David. She was one of his last wives. Saul's daughter was given to David as his first wife, but ended up marrying another man after David pretty much left her to fend for himself. Later, David claimed her as his wife and broke up the marriage. She despised David from her heart because he had danced in joy over the return of the ark. As a result, he put her away as a widow for the rest of her life, never fathering any children with her. However, according to Catholic theology she was the "queen mother"

And then there is poor Solomon. Solomon had no clear title to the throne. It had been contested by several of his half-brothers, all who had seniority in the issue relative to Solomon. David waited until he was confronted about the matter before he decided to give the throne to Solomon. So, who was David's queen? We don't even know David's mother's name or how many wives and concubines he actually had, do we?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
7,956
2,883
Minnesota
✟207,861.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
When was the last time you read either I and II Kings or I and II Chronicles? Using your really flawed theology we get women like Jezebel being queen when, in actual fact, she was simply the principle wife (although not the only wife) of Ahab.

Bathsheba was never queen with David. She was one of his last wives. Saul's daughter was given to David as his first wife, but ended up marrying another man after David pretty much left her to fend for himself. Later, David claimed her as his wife and broke up the marriage. She despised David from her heart because he had danced in joy over the return of the ark. As a result, he put her away as a widow for the rest of her life, never fathering any children with her. However, according to Catholic theology she was the "queen mother"

And then there is poor Solomon. Solomon had no clear title to the throne. It had been contested by several of his half-brothers, all who had seniority in the issue relative to Solomon. David waited until he was confronted about the matter before he decided to give the throne to Solomon. So, who was David's queen? We don't even know David's mother's name or how many wives and concubines he actually had, do we?
As I said, the Davidic line of of queens started with Solomon's mother. Study Kings. The importance of this office of queen is expressed in 1 Kings 2:19 “So Bathsheba went Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adonijah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought for the king’s mother; and she sat on his right.” While King Solomon's wives bowed down before him, you can gather the importance of the queenship by comparing that fact against the aforementioned Bible passage.
I think it would help you to reflect upon the below passage from John, even though Jesus told Mary His hour had not yet come, Jesus goes ahead and performs this miracle on the request of Mary.
The Wedding at Cana
John 2: 2-5 On the third day there was a marriage at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there; 2 Jesus also was invited to the marriage, with his disciples. 3 When the wine failed, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” 4 And Jesus said to her, “O woman, what have you to do with me?] My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.” RSVCE
 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
27,803
13,115
72
✟362,269.00
Faith
Non-Denom
As I said, the Davidic line of of queens started with Solomon's mother. Study Kings. The importance of this office of queen is expressed in 1 Kings 2:19 “So Bathsheba went Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adonijah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought for the king’s mother; and she sat on his right.” While King Solomon's wives bowed down before him, you can gather the importance of the queenship by comparing that fact against the aforementioned Bible passage.
I think it would help you to reflect upon the below passage from John, even though Jesus told Mary His hour had not yet come, Jesus goes ahead and performs this miracle on the request of Mary.
The Wedding at Cana
John 2: 2-5 On the third day there was a marriage at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there; 2 Jesus also was invited to the marriage, with his disciples. 3 When the wine failed, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” 4 And Jesus said to her, “O woman, what have you to do with me?] My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.” RSVCE

Solomon's mother, Bathsheba, was probably the last of his harem of wives and concubines. As such, she had no legal right to claim any title or honor. David married her because he had committed adultery with her and had her husband, Uriah, murdered to cover his adultery. The one thing Bathsheba had going for her was that she was a trophy wife. Do you think that she is in any way a role model for Mary, especially considering that Bathsheba never was a queen in any sense of the word?
 
Upvote 0

Mountainmike

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Nov 2, 2016
4,614
1,591
66
Northern uk
✟561,129.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
And protestants twist exegetical knots to avoid literal translations, for no better reason than they know the literal supports Catholicism.

I didn't raise the name Mary - we were talking about the word "woman" the word used in revelations and at Cana.

Its a fact that OT shows that the mother not spouse of a davidic king was called queen - also that Jesus frequently uses OT references because he knew first century Jews looked for meaning there. That's why he rode a donkey, to associate Himself with Solomon, also that kings rode donkeys when they came in the name of peace.

Get over it!. We see the mother of davidic kings named because they held special status. Far from distancing Himself from that, Jesus associated himself with it. But It's just an honorary title.

Why is it protestants like to demean "kechairatomene ", the one who the angel addresses as "full of grace" or rather "completed in grace" the one promised that "the lord is with you" the one "blessed amongst women", the one elizabeth was honoured to be visited by as "mother of my lord", the ever virgin? Catholics cannot build her up any more than God already has!

And you still havent addressed a fundamental issue : matthew 11:25

These exegetical cart wheels turned by protestants to avoid the obvious literal meanings may work for "wise men" looking for legalistic loopholes to avoid the obvious , they dont work for children! Judaea or the 12 tribes of israel are too far fetched. Sure there may be an allusion to who her "offspring" are. But that doesnt explain the woman.

The literal meanings.
-That Mary is the woman of revelations 12 - the ark of the new covenant - the one with a child destined to rule with a rod of Iron, whom the devil tried to destroy
- That it really was Peter given keys of an office, on which Jesus built his church
- That it really is Jesus' flesh and blood in the eucharist.
All these are the literal meanings - to propose other things not involves twisting words, but also avoiding the obvious and literal.

So if I ask a child who knows the nativity, who the woman of revelations is, they will say Mary. I tried it once!
Protestant cart wheels try to avoid the obvious

So from my point of view too:"I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes."


No where in the Bible is Mary called a queen of any sort, Davidic or otherwise. Much of your understanding comes from the extrabiblical theology developed by the RCC to glorify Mary.

As you know there are many Marys in the Bible, not just Cana. In fact, the sister of Moses, Miriam, is the first use of that name. Mary and Miriam are the same name in Hebrew. This fact created a problem for Mohammed who assumed that the mother of Jesus Christ was also the sister of Moses. We might think this is absurd but the Holy Q'ran presents it as the absolute truth of Allah.
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: Valletta
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
27,803
13,115
72
✟362,269.00
Faith
Non-Denom
And protestants twist exegetical knots to avoid literal translations, for no better reason than they know the literal supports Catholicism.

I didn't raise the name Mary - we were talking about the word "woman" the word used in revelations and at Cana.

Its a fact that OT shows that the mother not spouse of a davidic king was called queen - also that Jesus frequently uses OT references because he knew first century Jews looked for meaning there. That's why he rode a donkey, to associate Himself with Solomon, also that kings rode donkeys when they came in the name of peace.

Get over it!. We see the mother of davidic kings named because they held special status. Far from distancing Himself from that, Jesus associated himself with it. But It's just an honorary title.

Why is it protestants like to demean "kechairatomene ", the one who the angel addresses as "full of grace" or rather "completed in grace" the one promised that "the lord is with you" the one "blessed amongst women", the one elizabeth was honoured to be visited by as "mother of my lord", the ever virgin? Catholics cannot build her up any more than God already has!

And you still havent addressed a fundamental issue : matthew 11:25

These exegetical cart wheels turned by protestants to avoid the obvious literal meanings may work for "wise men" looking for legalistic loopholes to avoid the obvious , they dont work for children! Judaea or the 12 tribes of israel are too far fetched. Sure there may be an allusion to who her "offspring" are. But that doesnt explain the woman.

The literal meanings.
-That Mary is the woman of revelations 12 - the ark of the new covenant - the one with a child destined to rule with a rod of Iron, whom the devil tried to destroy
- That it really was Peter given keys of an office, on which Jesus built his church
- That it really is Jesus' flesh and blood in the eucharist.
All these are the literal meanings - to propose other things not involves twisting words, but also avoiding the obvious and literal.

So if I ask a child who knows the nativity, who the woman of revelations is, they will say Mary. I tried it once!
Protestant cart wheels try to avoid the obvious

So from my point of view too:"I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes."

Unfortunately, you only have Catholic theological spin to justify the concept of an Old Testament queen mother. It was literally impossible for Bathsheba to have had that title unless there were no qualifications other than being a mother of a king of Israel.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
7,956
2,883
Minnesota
✟207,861.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Unfortunately, you only have Catholic theological spin to justify the concept of an Old Testament queen mother. It was literally impossible for Bathsheba to have had that title unless there were no qualifications other than being a mother of a king of Israel.
1 Kings 2:19 So Bathshe′ba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adoni′jah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought for the king’s mother; and she sat on his right. RSVCE
 
Upvote 0