Who is the woman in Revelations 12?

narnia59

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Certainly my friend.

The Immaculate Conception.

Scripture says in Romans 3:23...........
"ALL have sinned and come short of God's approval".

From....What is the Immaculate Conception?------

In the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) 490-494 tradition, not Scripture, concludes.....
"The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin".
(Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus, 1854: DS 2803).

They affirm Mary is the "New Eve" (CCC 508-509) who gave birth to the "New Adam" (CCC 504-505) - Jesus Christ. Overshadowed by the Holy Spirit, Mary is considered to be the holy "ark," sinlessly fit to carry the Son of God. As the ark of the Lord in Moses' day carried the Old Covenant within it (Deut 10:8), so Mary carried the author of the New Covenant within her (Matt 1:18). Catholic doctrine affirms that she was "highly favored" (Luke 1:28), meaning in Catholic terms that Mary had an abundance of grace, rendering her sinless from birth (CCC 490-494).

So then, in plain Alabama english, RCC doctrine states Mary was free from the stain of original sin. In other words, Mary did not have a sin nature and was sinless?

The Bible fact is that Mary carried Christ. She was indeed the Ark of the New Covenant (Matt 1:18).

However, even the Ark of the Old Covenant was made of "cursed" elements.
Read that in Genesis 3:17-18, and Rom. 8:22.

But as such, it could still hold things that were set apart (made holy) by God:
(1) the manna,
(2) Aaron's rod, and
(3) tablets stones.

So, Mary being the Ark of God does not make her sinless (c.g. Isa 6:1-8; 2 Tim 2:20-21).

Now, everyone should take notice that as the Ark in Noah's day carried sinners (Noah and his family), so Mary did after she bore Christ, as she had other children (Matt 1:24-25; 13:56; Mark 6:3; John 2:12; 7:3; 7:5, 10, Acts 1:14, 1 Cor 9:5; Gal 1:19). So what do we now know..............
**********************************************************************
1: The Ark of the Old Covenant was made of corruptible things
2: Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant
Conclusion: Mary was a sinner.

In
Mark 3:20-21, Mary and others believed Jesus was out of his mind. They even acted on their false belief seeking to take Jesus home (Mark 3:31-32). So, Mary and others demonstrated that they were of little faith. Such lack of faith is sin (2 Chron 30:7; Psa 119:158; Jer 3:12; Matt 8:26; 14:31; Rom 14:23; Jas 1:6). So, what do we now know..........

1: Lack of faith is a sin
2: Mary had a lack of faith
Conclusion: Mary was a sinner!!!!
**************************************************************

Mark 6:4 states, "A prophet is not without honor, except in his hometown and among his relatives and in his own household" (cf. 1 Sam 2:30). This group includes Mary. Even the Catholic commentator Richard P. McBrien remarks, "We find a somewhat negative portrait of Mary in the Gospel of Mark. . ."
(Catholicism: Completely Revised & Updated, HarperCollins, 1994, p. 1079).
So, what do we now know.................

1. Jesus' family held him in dishonor at times
2. Mary was a member of Jesus' family
Conclusion: Mary was a sinner


Do you need me to continue or would you like for me to pick another false doctrine????
I already explained in this post why it's clear that when Paul says "all have sinned" he is not speaking of individuals any more than he is when he says "all have died," for clearly all individuals did not die. He is speaking of "all types" of people, both Gentiles and Jews. So that Scripture does not prove Mary is a sinner.

Who is the woman in Revelations 12?

Regarding Mark 6:4 -- "relatives" by default does not include "every" relative Christ had, nor does it specifically include Mary.

Regarding Mark 3:21 -- Most translations do not even translate this as "family" who thought Christ was out of his mind. The KJV translates it as "friends." So again, claiming this verse specifically refers to Mary is not valid.

You seem to view the Ark of the Covenant and Noah's Ark as being the same -- they are not. The Ark of the Covenant is a typology of Mary. Noah's Ark is a typology of the Church.

As far as the Ark of the Covenant being made with "cursed" elements because they are natural? So are all of those in the Ark that are "types" of Christ. They are all "natural" items that become supernatural. The Ark is indeed natural and man-made. God devotes multiple chapters in the book of Exodus with most specific instructions on how to construct the Ark that will be the dwelling place for these "types" of Christ. There are very explicit instructions given to Moses about construction of the Ark, along with the tabernacle and everything in it, as well as the consecration of the tabernacle before God will fill the tabernacle with this presence and dwell with the people. The ark is:
  • Made of acacia wood
  • Given specific size and dimensions
  • Overlaid with pure gold
  • Rings of gold and acacia poles overlaid with gold to cover the ark (no one can touch it)
  • Has a mercy seat of pure gold on top of the ark
  • Two cherubim of gold overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings
And the entire tent of dwelling is completely sanctified before God's presence dwells there (Exodus 30:22-29). They are "consecrated" so they will be "most holy." So yes, the Ark of the Covenant does point to Mary being sinless.

Nothing you have provided proves the Immaculate Conception dogma as false or being contrary to Scripture.
 
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narnia59

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No, anybody could not have.

“Ordinations” are simply appointments. The word can even be used negatively, as an appointment to punishment

Paul regularly ordained pastors for the churches he planted. He and Barnabas directed the appointment or ordination of elders “in each church” in Galatia. He instructed Titus to “appoint elders in every town” on Crete and Titus was not an Apostle. Titus himself had been ordained earlier, when “he was chosen by the churches” . In the above passages, the ordination of elders involves the whole congregation, not just the apostles.
Where is a passage that shows the ordination "involves" the whole congregation? They are appointed by someone outside of the congregation acting under the direction of the apostles. Not hired, or even "approved" by the congregation involved.

So if anybody could not ordain, who could?
 
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narnia59

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Paul never claimed to be one of the twelve, or to be qualified as apostle in the sense of Acts 1:21.

Now, It is a FACT that Barnabas was called an apostle. It is also a fact that Paul was called an apostle, both by himself and by those who he ministered among, otherwise he would not have used the word of himself in his letters to those he ministered to. It was not just Paul and Luke who used this term of Paul. It was also many of the Christians in the first century.

It is clear in the New Testament, Paul is not and never claimed to be among the twelve, whose qualifications are mentioned in Acts 1:21. I assume you are aware that Luke, who calls Paul an apostle, is the one who included the definition in Acts 1:21, so he obviously was well aware that, if Paul or Barnabas were “apostles,” then they were not apostles in the Acts 1:21 sense.

But here is the fact, which is that the Greek word apostle was used of people not among the twelve by the early church, and certainly they were not all considered false apostles. They were simply messengers (apostles), but for them, the usage of the word was different, as Luke and Paul were obviously aware.
So you think there were multiple apostles in different senses, but no apostles exist today?
 
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bbbbbbb

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It would be helpful if you could provide the source for your "information."

Mine shows that 70% of the Cardinals currently eligible to vote in a papal election are active diocesan bishops. Your claim that a "large number" have sees that are meaningless would prove to be faulty as 89% of those are presiding over archdioceses which indicates more than a few Catholics. Aside from that, someone from one of the more remote areas of the world trying to lead Christian faithful in an area that is extremely difficult would certainly have some valuable insight to provide and shouldn't be so easily dismissed.

Of the 7 of the 122 who have what some might consider to be "honorary" positions in Rome, the average age is 72, so after around 50+ years of active ministry, perhaps at least some time enjoying some of the comforts of life would not be an unreasonable thing.

When St. Peter was leading the apostles to select a successor to Judas, could he have foreseen a world with over a billion Catholics and 3000+ diocesan bishops and what that would look like? Probably not. The acorn and the tree can look very different, but they are organically the very same thing. His role was to get the Church moving in his time; his successors continue to move it forward. I am however glad you recognize that their vote fills the chair of St. Peter.

Oh, you mean this?
OIP.85d-M6fdVip8QXw9pmNXPwAAAA

It looks mighty impressive, but not very comfortable.
 
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JLHargus

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Not so my friend. The laying on of hands does not equal Apostolic Succession. there is just no Scripture that says .... "Laying on of hands makes an individual an Apostle".

JL: There are several Scriptures teaching Apostolic Succession. It is true, in Protestant denominations laying on of hands doesn’t equal Apostolic Succession. Protestants do not have it to pass on. However, Catholics, Orthodox and I think Coptic’s all have valid Apostolic Succession. To the best of my knowledge all have the same seven sacraments. A sacrament brings about the grace gift it signifies by the action of the Holy Spirit.

[2Tm1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands. 7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.]k

[1Tm4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. 14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. 15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. 16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.]k

[Titus1:4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. 5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: 6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. 7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;]k

[Acts14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.]k

[Acts20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.]k

[1Tm5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.]k

[Titus2:15 these things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.]k

[Hb13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.]k

[Hb13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.]k

[1Jn4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.]k

I don’t find a valid minister in the New Covenant who was not appointed=ordained and sent directly by Christ including Paul or sent by laying on of hands in the unbroken apostolic line by an apostle or one they ordained. KJV Biblegateway.
 
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bbbbbbb

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JL: There are several Scriptures teaching Apostolic Succession. It is true, in Protestant denominations laying on of hands doesn’t equal Apostolic Succession. Protestants do not have it to pass on. However, Catholics, Orthodox and I think Coptic’s all have valid Apostolic Succession. To the best of my knowledge all have the same seven sacraments. A sacrament brings about the grace gift it signifies by the action of the Holy Spirit.

[2Tm1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands. 7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.]k

[1Tm4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. 14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. 15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. 16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.]k

[Titus1:4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. 5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: 6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. 7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;]k

[Acts14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.]k

[Acts20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.]k

[1Tm5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.]k

[Titus2:15 these things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.]k

[Hb13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.]k

[Hb13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.]k

[1Jn4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.]k

I don’t find a valid minister in the New Covenant who was not appointed=ordained and sent directly by Christ including Paul or sent by laying on of hands in the unbroken apostolic line by an apostle or one they ordained. KJV Biblegateway.

Wow! An argument from silence indeed. Do we have any substantive data regarding who ordained the following folks?

16 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea; 2 that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and that you help her in whatever matter she may have need of you; for she herself has also been a helper of and of myself as well.

3 Greet Prisca and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus, 4 who for my life risked their own necks, to whom not only do I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles; 5 also greet the church that is in their house. Greet Epaenetus, my beloved, who is the first convert to Christ from Asia. 6 Greet Mary, who has worked hard for you. 7 Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me. 8 Greet Ampliatus, my beloved in the Lord. 9 Greet Urbanus, our fellow worker in Christ, and Stachys my beloved. 10 Greet Apelles, the approved in Christ. Greet those who are of the household of Aristobulus. 11 Greet Herodion, my kinsman. Greet those of the household of Narcissus, who are in the Lord. 12 Greet Tryphaena and Tryphosa, workers in the Lord. Greet Persis the beloved, who has worked hard in the Lord. 13 Greet Rufus, a choice man in the Lord, also his mother and mine. 14 Greet Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas and the brethren with them. 15 Greet Philologus and Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints who are with them.
 
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JLHargus

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Bbbbbbb: Wow! An argument from silence indeed.

JL:Wow! I must have hit a nerve. I would agree your reply is an argument from silence. I see you have no reply to my post, so you make up a totally ridiculous strawman.

Bbbbbbb: Do we have any substantive data regarding who ordained the following folks? 16 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea; 2 that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and that you help her in whatever matter she may have need of you; for she herself has also been a helper of and of myself as well.

3 Greet Prisca and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus, 4 who for my life risked their own necks, to whom not only do I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles; 5 also greet the church that is in their house. Greet Epaenetus, my beloved, who is the first convert to Christ from Asia. 6 Greet Mary, who has worked hard for you. 7 Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me. 8 Greet Ampliatus, my beloved in the Lord. 9 Greet Urbanus, our fellow worker in Christ, and Stachys my beloved. 10 Greet Apelles, the approved in Christ. Greet those who are of the household of Aristobulus. 11 Greet Herodion, my kinsman. Greet those of the household of Narcissus, who are in the Lord. 12 Greet Tryphaena and Tryphosa, workers in the Lord. Greet Persis the beloved, who has worked hard in the Lord. 13 Greet Rufus, a choice man in the Lord, also his mother and mine. 14 Greet Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas and the brethren with them. 15 Greet Philologus and Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints who are with them.

JL: It has no bearing on my post one way or other. Since it is your post you tell me if you have any substantive scriptural date, who was or was not ordained if any.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Bbbbbbb: Wow! An argument from silence indeed.

JL:Wow! I must have hit a nerve. I would agree your reply is an argument from silence. I see you have no reply to my post, so you make up a totally ridiculous strawman.

Bbbbbbb: Do we have any substantive data regarding who ordained the following folks? 16 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea; 2 that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and that you help her in whatever matter she may have need of you; for she herself has also been a helper of and of myself as well.

3 Greet Prisca and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus, 4 who for my life risked their own necks, to whom not only do I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles; 5 also greet the church that is in their house. Greet Epaenetus, my beloved, who is the first convert to Christ from Asia. 6 Greet Mary, who has worked hard for you. 7 Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me. 8 Greet Ampliatus, my beloved in the Lord. 9 Greet Urbanus, our fellow worker in Christ, and Stachys my beloved. 10 Greet Apelles, the approved in Christ. Greet those who are of the household of Aristobulus. 11 Greet Herodion, my kinsman. Greet those of the household of Narcissus, who are in the Lord. 12 Greet Tryphaena and Tryphosa, workers in the Lord. Greet Persis the beloved, who has worked hard in the Lord. 13 Greet Rufus, a choice man in the Lord, also his mother and mine. 14 Greet Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas and the brethren with them. 15 Greet Philologus and Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints who are with them.

JL: It has no bearing on my post one way or other. Since it is your post you tell me if you have any substantive scriptural date, who was or was not ordained if any.

Please explain to me what it was precisely meant by you when you wrote, "I don’t find a valid minister in the New Covenant who was not appointed=ordained and sent directly by Christ including Paul or sent by laying on of hands in the unbroken apostolic line by an apostle or one they ordained."

Thank you.
 
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JLHargus

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Please explain to me what it was precisely meant by you when you wrote, "I don’t find a valid minister in the New Covenant who was not appointed=ordained and sent directly by Christ including Paul or sent by laying on of hands in the unbroken apostolic line by an apostle or one they ordained." Thank you.

JL: Now that you have clarified your previous post of Rom16:3-4, it makes sense to me. I thought it was just a strawman. That’s one reason I do most long posts with specific objection and answer seen together.

Essentially in Scripture we see no other type of ordination mentioned but laying of hands by an apostle or one ordained by an apostle. Laying on of hands is not always ordination, Acts8:18, it depends on the intention.
 
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bbbbbbb

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JL: Now that you have clarified your previous post of Rom16:3-4, it makes sense to me. I thought it was just a strawman. That’s one reason I do most long posts with specific objection and answer seen together.

Essentially in Scripture we see no other type of ordination mentioned but laying of hands by an apostle or one ordained by an apostle. Laying on of hands is not always ordination, Acts8:18, it depends on the intention.

Actually, the only ordination given in the Bible is the ordination requirements for the Levitical priesthood of the Old Testament. The book of Hebrews makes it crystal clear that the Levitical priesthood is dead and done away with.
 
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Major1

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JL: There are several Scriptures teaching Apostolic Succession. It is true, in Protestant denominations laying on of hands doesn’t equal Apostolic Succession. Protestants do not have it to pass on. However, Catholics, Orthodox and I think Coptic’s all have valid Apostolic Succession. To the best of my knowledge all have the same seven sacraments. A sacrament brings about the grace gift it signifies by the action of the Holy Spirit.

[2Tm1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands. 7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.]k

[1Tm4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. 14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. 15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. 16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.]k

[Titus1:4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. 5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: 6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. 7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;]k

[Acts14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.]k

[Acts20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.]k

[1Tm5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.]k

[Titus2:15 these things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.]k

[Hb13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.]k

[Hb13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.]k

[1Jn4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.]k

I don’t find a valid minister in the New Covenant who was not appointed=ordained and sent directly by Christ including Paul or sent by laying on of hands in the unbroken apostolic line by an apostle or one they ordained. KJV Biblegateway.

Personally I do not agree with your opinion.

Not one single Scripture you posted tells us about Apostolic succession. I reaize that "YOU" want them to and YOU are reading your wants into the Scruptures but that does not make them say what you want them to say.

The Biblical truth is that nowhere in Scripture did Jesus, the apostles, or any other New Testament writer set forth the idea of “apostolic succession.”

Catholics point to Matthias being chosen to replace Judas as the twelfth apostle in Acts chapter 1 as an example of apostolic succession. While Matthias did indeed “succeed” Judas as an apostle, this is in no sense an argument for continuing apostolic succession. Matthias being chosen to replace Judas is only an argument for the church replacing ungodly and unfaithful leaders (such as Judas) with godly and faithful leaders (such as Matthias). Nowhere in the New Testament are any of the twelve apostles recorded as passing on their apostolic authority to successors. Nowhere do any of the apostles predict that they will pass on their apostolic authority.
 
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JLHargus

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Actually, the only ordination given in the Bible is the ordination requirements for the Levitical priesthood of the Old Testament. The book of Hebrews makes it crystal clear that the Levitical priesthood is dead and done away with.

JL: Actually, we see in the NT the example of laying of hands when one is ordained.

[1Tm4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. 14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. 15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. 16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.]k


Can you name three or four Protestant denominations who do not ordain by laying on of hands, I would bet yours does? I agree the Levitical priesthood of the OT has been completely done away with. But there is a new Priesthood in the Order of Melchizedek.

[Ps110:1 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. 2 The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. 3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. 4 The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.]k

[Hb7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Hb7:1313 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. 14-21 …. 22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.]k Altar=table of sacrifice

[1Cor10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. 18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. 21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.]k

[1Cor11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. 27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.]k

Catholics call this the sacrifice of the Mass, breaking of bread.

[Acts2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. 42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.]k

[Lk24:30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. 31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight. 32 …. 33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them, 34 Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon. 35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.]k

[Mal1:10 Who is there even among you that would shut the doors for nought? neither do ye kindle fire on mine altar for nought. I have no pleasure in you, saith the Lord of hosts, neither will I accept an offering at your hand. 11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts. 12 But ye have profaned it, in that ye say, The table of the Lord is polluted; and the fruit thereof, even his meat, is contemptible.]k

[Roms15:16 for my being a servant of Jesus Christ to the nations, acting as priest in the good news of God, that the offering up of the nations may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.]YLT Bible verses from Bible Gateway public domain
 
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bbbbbbb

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JL: Actually, we see in the NT the example of laying of hands when one is ordained. [1Tm4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. 14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. 15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. 16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.]k

Can you name three or four Protestant denominations who do not ordain by laying on of hands, I would bet yours does? I agree the Levitical priesthood of the OT has been completely done away with. But there is a new Priesthood in the Order of Melchizedek.

[Ps110:1 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. 2 The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. 3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. 4 The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.]k

[Hb7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Hb7:1313 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. 14-21 …. 22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.]k Altar=table of sacrifice

[1Cor10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. 18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. 21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.]k

[1Cor11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. 27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.]k

Catholics call this the sacrifice of the Mass, breaking of bread.

[Acts2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. 42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.]k

[Lk24:30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. 31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight. 32 …. 33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them, 34 Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon. 35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.]k

[Mal1:10 Who is there even among you that would shut the doors for nought? neither do ye kindle fire on mine altar for nought. I have no pleasure in you, saith the Lord of hosts, neither will I accept an offering at your hand. 11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts. 12 But ye have profaned it, in that ye say, The table of the Lord is polluted; and the fruit thereof, even his meat, is contemptible.]k

[Roms15:16 for my being a servant of Jesus Christ to the nations, acting as priest in the good news of God, that the offering up of the nations may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.]YLT Bible verses from Bible Gateway public domain

It is a real stretch to associate Melchizedek with anyone other than Jesus Christ. The writer of Hebrews is quite clear about the connection and does not associate the priestly office of Jesus Christ with anyone other than Melchizedek. In fact, he goes to great lengths to make it crystal clear that the priestly offering of Jesus Christ was his own life and blood and it was only offered once and will never need to be offered again in contrast to the Levitical priesthood.

To believe that a group of men are able to reoffer the sacrifice of Jesus Christ again and again is to make a complete mockery of the book of Hebrews.
 
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JLHargus

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It is a real stretch to associate Melchizedek with anyone other than Jesus Christ. The writer of Hebrews is quite clear about the connection and does not associate the priestly office of Jesus Christ with anyone other than Melchizedek. In fact, he goes to great lengths to make it crystal clear that the priestly offering of Jesus Christ was his own life and blood and it was only offered once and will never need to be offered again in contrast to the Levitical priesthood.

To believe that a group of men are able to reoffer the sacrifice of Jesus Christ again and again is to make a complete mockery of the book of Hebrews.
 
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JLHargus

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It is a real stretch to associate Melchizedek with anyone other than Jesus Christ. The writer of Hebrews is quite clear about the connection and does not associate the priestly office of Jesus Christ with anyone other than Melchizedek. In fact, he goes to great lengths to make it crystal clear that the priestly offering of Jesus Christ was his own life and blood and it was only offered once and will never need to be offered again in contrast to the Levitical priesthood.


To believe that a group of men are able to reoffer the sacrifice of Jesus Christ again and again is to make a complete mockery of the book of Hebrews.


JL: I notice you posted no scripture evidence for your statement. My view, a statement made without evidence is evidence there is no evidence for the statement.
 
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bbbbbbb

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JL: I notice you posted no scripture evidence for your statement. My view, a statement made without evidence is evidence there is no evidence for the statement.

Here 'ya go -

Hebrews 5:1 Every high priest is selected from among the people and is appointed to represent the people in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2 He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness. 3 This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people. 4 And no one takes this honor on himself, but he receives it when called by God, just as Aaron was.

5 In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him,

“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.

6 And he says in another place,

“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.

7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
 
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Mountainmike

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Neither, IMO. My identification would be either Jerusalem, or the province of Judaea. Possibly both.

And I think - I’m not sure about this - that the Woman of Rev 12 is probably the same figure as the Woman of Rev 17-18.

It’s a mistake to consider revelatins as chapters, the division came later.

In which case the verse before “the woman clothed with the sun” is a vision of “ the ark of the covenant” .

Mary is the ark of the new covenant, and all else fits.
 
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bbbbbbb

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It’s a mistake to consider revelatins as chapters, the division came later.

In which case the verse before “the woman clothed with the sun” is a vision of “ the ark of the covenant” .
Mary is the ark of the new covenant, and all else fits.

Not really.
 
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Mountainmike

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Not really.
Two things.
First revelations in part allegorical- it uses images not literal precision.
There is also a presumption that the verse can only have one meaning but typology allows interpretation at multiple levels. It is not necessarily exclusive.

A meaning that fits is Mary.
The devil cast down to lead the world astray.
The son foretold to rule in psalms 2 with a rod of iron.
The flight into Egypt.
 
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