Who is the woman in Revelations 12?

[Mountainmike]

Also... the word " woman" in ancient language is exactly the same word used of Mary at Cana, and at thecross.

Those who want it to mean something else, have to show that their something else is also referred as woman else where.

When was Israel ever referred to as " woman"

When trying to identify the sign, the woman described in chapter twelve of the book of Revelation. Whatever the identification (Israel, church, Mary), the identity must satisfy the following verses.

Revelation 12:13-17
And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

The dragon persecuted the woman who gave birth to Jesus?

The woman flew into the wilderness?

The woman was nourished for a time, times and half a time?

The woman has other children not just Jesus, these other children are Christians?

 

[Mountainmike]

Actually...The child is the One New Man mentioned in Ephesians 2:15 the One New Man is the bride of Christ

Two things..

One is that it is such an abstraction of a wise man, it fails the " revealed to little children" test!

Second it is clearly Christ who is prophesied ruling with a rod of iron, not his church!

 

[SeventyOne]

Second it is clearly Christ who is prophesied ruling with a rod of iron, not his church!

When it says the Church will be given a rod of iron to also rule with, suddenly it's not as clear as you think.

 

[Eloy Craft]

When it says the Church will be given a rod of iron to also rule with, suddenly it's not as clear as you think.

agree. Jesus and His Church are One

When was Israel ever referred to as " woman"

You are right. In a way because that title is reserved for individual persons. But Israel can be a type that is female. The following describes the pattern of types of Woman and Man in Sacred Scriptures.

Hosea called Israel a mother and wife.

Hosea 2
2 Plead with your mother, plead—
for she is not my wife,
and I am not her husband

This scripture ends as an Individual who is 'Woman' personified in the center of history when the new covenant was being made 'and' a people at the end of this age.


These were the children of the individual with the title 'Woman' who is not a type but is Woman. Like Man is an archetype. As a title Jesus is the New Man..Adam is Man, Eve is Woman. Son of Man began with Seth. Ezekiel was a type and called a son of man. A son of man is a type of Adam, all man as one man. God creates Man, Adam and Eve produce the son of man in the likeness and image of Adam, who like his father, is all of them as one man.
The image and likeness of man springs forth from their loins. Primary generators. Adam reaches his highest glory in Enoch

I think Prophets plead desperately for their people knowing this about themselves. It is a truth of the human soul that all are one in Adam and because of that, it's a reality that echoes down the ages as human history unfolds. Son of man is a type of Adam being lifted up in types of Son of Man Son of God to come. Seth son of man(Adam) to Jesus Son of Man(Mary) Son of God.(His Father)

If you want to see another, in scriptures read the encounter at the well witrh the Samaitan woman in light of the following She is a daughter of Israel and personifies the unfaithful wife that doesn't murder Jesus but was waiting for Him and married Him. When you read this story note how it is very peculiar relative to other encounters with Jesus. He speaks in a direct manner to her. He tells her He is the Messiah she has been waiting for.

16 Jesus said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come back.” 17 The woman answered him, “I have no husband.” Jesus said to her, “You are right in saying, ‘I have no husband’; 18 for you have had five husbands, and the one you have now is not your husband. What you have said is true!” 19 The woman said to him, “Sir, I see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you say that the place where people must worship is in Jerusalem.” 21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.

Note the pattern of husbands parallel the history of Samaria. Samaria had five foreign invasions and pagan kings installed and the sixth was ruling at the time when Jesus and the woman met. Notice how the 'people' believe because she believes. The foreign invaders brought their idols, gods, and 'blasphemies' that contaminated the pure religion they had at the beginning of their history.

She had five husbands and the one she had at the time was not her husband. She is a personification of the archetype Woman. Jesus becomes number seven. Note also the pattern in revelation, five have come, one is here now and one is yet to come. Jesus tells her He is the one who is coming. " that messiah we know" she say's' Jesus outright tells her" I am He" Note the pattern in Revelation, five have come, one is here now, one is yet to come. when he does come, he stays a short while(meeting at the well) and he is going to his destruction(the cross) the eighth is one of the seven (resurrection). Just sayin'.
The antichrist copies this pattern and the eighth for him, is going to his destruction. How? By the breath of Christ.

2 Thess
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will destroy with the breath of his mouth, annihilating him by the manifestation of his coming.


We know that Israel as a bride kills Jesus(Jerusalem). Jesus claims Jerusalem as having all the blood of the Prophets on her hand. This is the definitive term for the Mother of harlots. He mentions Abel to point at the beginning. Abels blood was all the blood ever shed on earth at the time Cain murdered him. A type of Satan as 'murderer from the beginning'. What woman could have blood on her hands that Cain spilt? Eve said "I have got me a man" when Cain was born. You might wonder what kind of family life Cain was born into,

Rev 18-7
In her heart she says,
‘I am a queen on a throne, not a widow.
I will never see misery.’

So, this is a picture of the first family and the religious matriarchy that descends from Cain's line. ( mother gods, fertility gods, idols, worship of natural powers and creatures)The Mother of harlots. A dysfunctional family for sure. She will never see misery. Will never be barren because she is mother of all the living. The word husband is not mentioned. She just needs a man to produce children.


She said " God has granted another offspring" when Seth was first born in the image of his father. She has changed her disposition towards Adam God and her children She is "Woman of sin who repented and was saved in a type personified, as the Woman at the well.

The below is Israel as wife at the end of the age when the Jews recognize Jesus as their messiah and as the Woman who recognized her messiah when she met Jesus at the well.

19 And I will take you for my wife forever; I will take you for my wife in righteousness and in justice, in steadfast love, and in mercy. 20 I will take you for my wife in faithfulness; and you shall know the Lord.

Second it is clearly Christ who is prophesied ruling with a rod of iron, not his church!

Jesus said to Paul when Paul asked "who are you Lord?" " I am Jesus and you are persecuting me"

 

[Mountainmike]

Which is interesting but stretching to point at Israel

Since woman even in your quotes is a person,

I would also point out that revelations does not in origin have chapters, they were added. So the verses before this are relevant

The verse before the woman of revelations 12 is the ark of the covenant. Mary clearly is the ark of the new covenant.


Revelations 12 also refers to spiritual offspring, those who keep the commandments. The reference does not fit Israel as a whole.

agree. Jesus and His Church are One
You are right. In a way because that title is reserved for individual persons. But Israel can be a type that is female. The following describes the pattern of types of Woman and Man in Sacred Scriptures.

Hosea called Israel a mother and wife.

Hosea 2
2 Plead with your mother, plead—
for she is not my wife,
and I am not her husband

This scripture ends as an Individual who is 'Woman' personified in the center of history when the new covenant was being made 'and' a people at the end of this age.


These were the children of the individual with the title 'Woman' who is not a type but is Woman. Like Man is an archetype. As a title Jesus is the New Man..Adam is Man, Eve is Woman. Son of Man began with Seth. Ezekiel was a type and called a son of man. A son of man is a type of Adam, all man as one man. God creates Man, Adam and Eve produce the son of man in the likeness and image of Adam, who like his father, is all of them as one man.
The image and likeness of man springs forth from their loins. Primary generators. Adam reaches his highest glory in Enoch

I think Prophets plead desperately for their people knowing this about themselves. It is a truth of the human soul that all are one in Adam and because of that, it's a reality that echoes down the ages as human history unfolds. Son of man is a type of Adam being lifted up in types of Son of Man Son of God to come. Seth son of man(Adam) to Jesus Son of Man(Mary) Son of God.(His Father)

If you want to see another, in scriptures read the encounter at the well witrh the Samaitan woman in light of the following She is a daughter of Israel and personifies the unfaithful wife that doesn't murder Jesus but was waiting for Him and married Him. When you read this story note how it is very peculiar relative to other encounters with Jesus. He speaks in a direct manner to her. He tells her He is the Messiah she has been waiting for.

16 Jesus said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come back.” 17 The woman answered him, “I have no husband.” Jesus said to her, “You are right in saying, ‘I have no husband’; 18 for you have had five husbands, and the one you have now is not your husband. What you have said is true!” 19 The woman said to him, “Sir, I see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you say that the place where people must worship is in Jerusalem.” 21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.

Note the pattern of husbands parallel the history of Samaria. Samaria had five foreign invasions and pagan kings installed and the sixth was ruling at the time when Jesus and the woman met. Notice how the 'people' believe because she believes. The foreign invaders brought their idols, gods, and 'blasphemies' that contaminated the pure religion they had at the beginning of their history.

She had five husbands and the one she had at the time was not her husband. She is a personification of the archetype Woman. Jesus becomes number seven. Note also the pattern in revelation, five have come, one is here now and one is yet to come. Jesus tells her He is the one who is coming. " that messiah we know" she say's' Jesus outright tells her" I am He" Note the pattern in Revelation, five have come, one is here now, one is yet to come. when he does come, he stays a short while(meeting at the well) and he is going to his destruction(the cross) the eighth is one of the seven (resurrection). Just sayin'.
The antichrist copies this pattern and the eighth for him, is going to his destruction. How? By the breath of Christ.

2 Thess
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will destroy with the breath of his mouth, annihilating him by the manifestation of his coming.


We know that Israel as a bride kills Jesus(Jerusalem). Jesus claims Jerusalem as having all the blood of the Prophets on her hand. This is the definitive term for the Mother of harlots. He mentions Abel to point at the beginning. Abels blood was all the blood ever shed on earth at the time Cain murdered him. A type of Satan as 'murderer from the beginning'. What woman could have blood on her hands that Cain spilt? Eve said "I have got me a man" when Cain was born. You might wonder what kind of family life Cain was born into,

Rev 18-7
In her heart she says,
‘I am a queen on a throne, not a widow.
I will never see misery.’

So, this is a picture of the first family and the religious matriarchy that descends from Cain's line. ( mother gods, fertility gods, idols, worship of natural powers and creatures)The Mother of harlots. A dysfunctional family for sure. She will never see misery. Will never be barren because she is mother of all the living. The word husband is not mentioned. She just needs a man to produce children.


She said " God has granted another offspring" when Seth was first born in the image of his father. She has changed her disposition towards Adam God and her children She is "Woman of sin who repented and was saved in a type personified, as the Woman at the well.

The below is Israel as wife at the end of the age when the Jews recognize Jesus as their messiah and as the Woman who recognized her messiah when she met Jesus at the well.

19 And I will take you for my wife forever; I will take you for my wife in righteousness and in justice, in steadfast love, and in mercy. 20 I will take you for my wife in faithfulness; and you shall know the Lord.

Jesus said to Paul when Paul asked "who are you Lord?" " I am Jesus and you are persecuting me"

 

[Eloy Craft]

Which is interesting but stretching to point at Israel

Since woman even in your quotes is a person,

In my interpretation,the Israelites are the children of Woman through blood and truth so inherit the nature and truth of the person with the title. So, the title isn't them but inherited. As for Israel and their connection to the New Woman their contribution is necessary and their greatest accomplishment. That is the Holy Place among the Israelites that preserved the Ark of the Covenant. Consequently the Holy Place was preserved in the bloodline in the hearts of the royalty hidden among them. The Holy Place within flesh provided a place for the Holy Spirit to conceive the New Woman and be Jesus' Mother.

Revelations 12 also refers to spiritual offspring, those who keep the commandments. The reference does not fit Israel as a whole.

The Woman of the former covenant is inherited through blood. The New Woman of the New Covenant is not inherited through blood but Spirit. Jesus taught that spiritual bonds between persons are greater than the bonds of blood.

Revelations 12 also refers to spiritual offspring, those who keep the commandments. The reference does not fit Israel as a whole.

The new doesn't abolish the old but fulfills and they are made one. This is true of the two Women of salvation history and their offspring.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Viewing the woman as the Church never added up for me. "The Church gives birth to Our Lord, who later goes on to found the Church".

I also had difficulty viewing the woman as Israel considering that the religious authorities of Israel rejected Our Lord.

The woman in Rev 12 being Our Lady makes literal sense. There is, however, a minor weakness to that argument. But the above two have major weaknesses so unless better ideas come along, I view the woman as Our Lady.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Viewing the woman as the Church never added up for me. "The Church gives birth to Our Lord, who later goes on to found the Church".

I also had difficulty viewing the woman as Israel considering that the religious authorities of Israel rejected Our Lord.

The woman in Rev 12 being Our Lady makes literal sense. There is, however, a minor weakness to that argument. But the above two have major weaknesses so unless better ideas come along, I view the woman as Our Lady.

Good call! There are two women who become one just as there are two covenants and two peoples who become one. Mary is the New Woman. Consider this scripture as it pertains to the Church.


Rev 2 25-28
25 only hold fast to what you have until I come. 26 To everyone who conquers and continues to do my works to the end,

I will give authority over the nations;
27 to rule them with an iron rod,
as when clay pots are shattered—

28 even as I also received authority from my Father.


The Church as bride of Christ, pregnant and in labor to give birth to her children who will rule with an iron rod

 

[Eloy Craft]

Viewing the woman as the Church never added up for me. "The Church gives birth to Our Lord, who later goes on to found the Church".

I also had difficulty viewing the woman as Israel considering that the religious authorities of Israel rejected Our Lord.

The woman in Rev 12 being Our Lady makes literal sense. There is, however, a minor weakness to that argument. But the above two have major weaknesses so unless better ideas come along, I view the woman as Our Lady.

Also this. Hagar is the former Woman a type of Eve. Sarah is a type of Mary the New Woman



Galatians 4
The Allegory of Hagar and Sarah
21 Tell me, you who desire to be subject to the law, will you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and the other by a free woman. 23 One, the child of the slave, was born according to the flesh; the other, the child of the free woman, was born through the promise. 24 Now this is an allegory: these women are two covenants. One woman, in fact, is Hagar, from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery. 25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the other woman corresponds to the Jerusalem above; she is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written,

“Rejoice, you childless one, you who bear no children,
burst into song and shout, you who endure no birth pangs;
for the children of the desolate woman are more numerous
than the children of the one who is married.”

28 Now you, my friends, are children of the promise, like Isaac. 29 But just as at that time the child who was born according to the flesh persecuted the child who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the scripture say? “Drive out the slave and her child; for the child of the slave will not share the inheritance with the child of the free woman.” 31 So then, friends, we are children, not of the slave but of the free woman.



With this we can see the beginning in Genesis and the end in Revelation. Abraham is a type of Adam. He is the father of anti-christ by the flesh and Jesus both through the promise and by the flesh of Mary. So Mary is all as one Woman.

 

[GTW27]

Revelation 12 MSG;NIV - The Woman, Her Son, and the Dragon - A - Bible Gateway


Is it Mary or the church?

The Woman clothed with the sun is The True Bride. His special possession on the day He acts. The 12 Stars represent the foundation set by 12 Apostles and The Man Child is Christ (Jesus) in us. To those that have an ear, let the hear.

 

[Noxot]

Revelation 12 MSG;NIV - The Woman, Her Son, and the Dragon - A - Bible Gateway


Is it Mary or the church?

what's the difference?

Mark 3:31-35 (YLT)
Then come do his brethren and mother, and standing without, they sent unto him, calling him, and a multitude was sitting about him, and they said to him, `Lo, thy mother and thy brethren without do seek thee.' And he answered them, saying, `Who is my mother, or my brethren?' And having looked round in a circle to those sitting about him, he saith, `Lo, my mother and my brethren! for whoever may do the will of God, he is my brother, and my sister, and mother.'

 

[thecolorsblend]

Revelation 12 MSG;NIV - The Woman, Her Son, and the Dragon - A - Bible Gateway


Is it Mary or the church?

It can't be the Church. Our Lord founded the Church. Rev 12 would have to be saying that the Church which Our Lord founded birthed him, after which He went on to found the Church. It doesn't make logical sense.

It can't be Israel. Israel will be protected in the wilderness while, um, Israel is attacked by the dragon? Again, it doesn't make it logical sense.

The woman of Rev 12 could be Our Lady though. She did literally give birth to Our Lord and she did escape persecution while others were persecuted. I don't see any obvious reason to reject this interpretation.

 

[Standing Up]

The woman in Rev 12 being Our Lady makes literal sense. There is, however, a minor weakness to that argument. But the above two have major weaknesses so unless better ideas come along, I view the woman as Our Lady.

You may be referring to the woman of Rev 12 as in pain giving birth. Since RCC views Mary as without sin from her conception, it would be impossible for her to be under the condemnation of Eve. Under RCC view, Mary was not in pain during childbirth.

At the same time, believe you are right that the woman does not refer to the church (Christ's body). And does not refer except generally to Israel.

So, is there a 4th alternative or perhaps RCC has an incorrect dogma or two about Mary.

 

[Ripheus27]

It's Mary, and the eagle who protects her is the John who was given to her as her son (there was a tradition seeing John as an eagle, for one because there were four accepted gospels and the fourth animal in the tetramorph is an eagle, so the fourth gospel fits to the four animal), and when she is carried away, that's a type of her assumption into Heaven.

(Btw if John was Mary's son, and not by birth, then we have a case of Mary basically "adopting" someone, so why is it impossible for the explanation of Mary's other children being not that they were conceived but adopted by her?)

 

[Eloy Craft]

You may be referring to the woman of Rev 12 as in pain giving birth. Since RCC views Mary as without sin from her conception, it would be impossible for her to be under the condemnation of Eve. Under RCC view, Mary was not in pain during childbirth.

At the same time, believe you are right that the woman does not refer to the church (Christ's body). And does not refer except generally to Israel.

So, is there a 4th alternative or perhaps RCC has an incorrect dogma or two about Mary.

The pain is the result of children born in sin. That consequence for Eve was realized when Cain killed Abel. That pain was bore fully by Our Lady at the foot of the cross.

 

[Mountainmike]

One thing people consistently miss - so I will say it again - is that John didn't have chapters , they were added later.

So reading last verse of 11 rolling into 12 it says in summary

...
Behold the ark of the covenant (end 11)
Behold a lady clothed with the sun. ( beginning 12)
Who gave birth...
Whose offspring will rule with a rod of iron, ( clearly Christ from OT)
...

Without a shadow of doubt The ark of the new covenant is Mary, as stated by many early church fathers, whose offspring was Christ!

So Israel and 12 tribes. Yes there are types and allusions and multiple levels of meaning all through the bible, but the primary meaning has to be Mary!

Matt 11:25 is appropriate - " revealed to children, concealed from wise men"

Children would say rev 12 was Mary, and NO CHILDREN without prompting would ever say it was Israel!
It is only concealed from those wise men who are determined to find any other meaning than one they don't like for anticatholic reasons! Just like the exegetical cartwheels they turn to avoid the obvious with Peter and Rock. And the most obvious meaning is even evident to THOSE wise men. they just don't want others to believe it!
Or perhaps I should say " well educated" it does not make them " wise"

 

[concretecamper]

Revelation 12 MSG;NIV - The Woman, Her Son, and the Dragon - A - Bible Gateway


Is it Mary or the church?

Considering John saw the Ark at the end of Chapter 11, and then speaks of the Woman, I'd say Mary is a pretty safe choice. Considering the Chapters were added later make the case that it is Mary since she is the Ark of the New Covenant. Now imagery in Revelations abounds, so it can also be the Church on a different level.

Or, I could have read the post right before mine

 

[Major1]

Revelation 12 MSG;NIV - The Woman, Her Son, and the Dragon - A - Bible Gateway


Is it Mary or the church?

Neither my friend.

Rev. 12:1-4......….
"A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born."

Now consider
Genesis 37:9-11...…….
"And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth? And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying.

According to how Jacob himself interpreted this:

• Sun = Jacob (Israel) [woman: clothed with the sun, identified by her clothing which is Israel]
• Moon = Rachel (mom) [woman: standing upon]
• 11 stars = 11 brothers [woman: crowned with the 12 tribes of Israel (their father). We see the 12 tribes identified with the doorways in and out of New Jerusalem as well.

A great wonder (sign) in heaven a woman:

• Clothed with the sun - The 12 tribes of Israel were borne through Jacob, their father. Being clothed with him is like an identity for the woman. When you see the woman, clothed with her father, Jacob, it represents all of his literal seed, the Jews, what we call the nation of Israel.
• Moon under her feet - Genesis 3:15 prophesies of the coming Messiah through the seed of the woman. (It is the man who has the seed) The lineage of Christ actually came through the woman, Mary, and in the symbology of this woman in Revelation 12:2, being Israel, shows that Christ came from the nation of Israel. Revelation 12:2-5 Christ, the man-child was born of a virgin through the nation of Israel, the tribe of Judah. He was bruised by Lucifer (the cross for our sins) and Christ will crush Lucifer’s head (his ultimate defeat in the end). I believe the woman standing on the moon demonstrates this relationship of the woman as being the foundation of the nation of Israel and the fulfillment of this prophecy.
• Crown of 12 stars on her head - The 12 tribes of Israel are also represented as the 12 pearl gates into New Jerusalem. I believe this is because salvation came through the Jews, and so we must pass through their gates to enter the city. Proverbs 4:7-9 speaks of a crown of glory and an ornament of grace. Psalm 103:1-5 speaks of crowning with loving-kindness and tender mercies. Also, in Genesis 49 is Jacob telling the 12 sons “that which shall befall you in the last days.” Genesis 49:22-26 specifies Joseph’s prophecy of the blessings of Jacob being on the head of Joseph, the crown of the head. The crown (stephanos G4735) symbolizes a badge of royalty. So it would seem that the 12 tribes of Israel are the glory of Israel and rightly so since they are her beginnings.
• She brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron

Psalms 2:9
Thou [Yeshua] shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.

Revelation 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he [Yeshua] should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Revelation 2:27
And he [he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end] shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. We are fellow heirs with Christ, not the other way around. The prophecy of Revelation 12 is specifically talking about Christ being born through Israel and being caught up to God.

• The Meshiach Nagid was prophesied to come from the lineage of Israel along with other prophecies that place Christ being born of a virgin and of Jewish lineage. Indeed, all of our scriptures are Jewish and Romans 11 is quite clear on how important Israel still is to Him. He is also the “seed of the woman” not having had the seed of man to be conceived.

The Woman of Revelation 12

The Woman is then symbolic of the nation of ISRAEL.

 

[Major1]

From my understanding, The Catholic Church believes it is Mary, but it it also considers it to be Israel, the Church,etc

PROOF = Is Mary my Mother? A look at Revelation 12

Agreed and it is not surprising to find that Catholics would look at Rev. 12 and interpret “the woman clothed with the sun” as being a reference to Mary.

Is this position correct? No, it is not.

The TCC has a very real problem when it forces Mary to be the woman in Rev. 12.

If you notice the text in verse 2 it says that she was “with child and she cried out being in labor and in pain.” This is a problem because according to the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, Mary did not inherit Original Sin.

• CCC 491, “Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God, was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854: The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.”

If you’re not familiar with the concept of Original Sin, it is “the hereditary fallen nature and moral corruption that is passed down from Adam to his descendants."

Sin entered the world through Adam as seen in Ro. 5:12. He is the first man who committed sin, and that sin is reckoned to all people as recorded in 1 Corth. 15:22 and Ro. 5:18. This means that all descendants of Adam are under the effects of original sin.
Part of the curse of the Fall that caused Original Sin is spoken of by God in Genesis 3.

• Gen. 3:16... "To the woman He said, 'I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth. In pain you shall bring forth children. Yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.'”

Notice that part of the curse is pain in childbirth. This is why women suffer during the birth process. So, when we look back to the text of Revelation 12:1-2, we see that the woman clothed with the sun is suffering birth pain. Since the Roman Catholic position is that Mary could not be suffering birth pain (because of her Immaculate Conception and no Original Sin), then these verses cannot be about Mary.

Now, everyone is welcome to disagree with me as I am no expert. But I can read and I encourage you who do disagree to read the Catholic's own CCC 491, and compare that to the Scriptures.

Now you can see that you are in disagreement with God's Word......Not me!

 

[Eloy Craft]

Gen. 3:16... "To the woman He said, 'I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth. In pain you shall bring forth children. Yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.'”

Eve had not given birth yet. Whatever physical pain she experienced would not have a known meaning. It's followed with "yet your desire will be for your husband and he will rule over you. What does that have to do with physical pain of childbirth? If we consider that sin is the cause of increased pain of having children we can think that a mother's pain is increased when her children are born in sin. That pain was realized when Cain killed Abel. In that light it makes more sense that her yearning would be for her husban because he shares her pain and she is utterly alone without him. That all happened to Adam and Eve and he did rule over her by not having another child until she was ready to accept his authority. Listen to his voice again. The reward.

Genesis 5 King James Version (KJV)
5 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

Notice that part of the curse is pain in childbirth. This is why women suffer during the birth process. So, when we look back to the text of Revelation 12:1-2, we see that the woman clothed with the sun is suffering birth pain. Since the Roman Catholic position is that Mary could not be suffering birth pain (because of her Immaculate Conception and no Original Sin), then these verses cannot be about Mary.

Mary bore the pain in it's entirety having given up her Son to the sinful world He was born into.