Who is the woman in Revelations 12?

[Major1]

"a dog in the Alabama woods who has fleas" I like that!

Lots and lots of fleas in Alabama!

 

[Major1]

One searches in vain to find anything resembling the bureaucracy of your denomination existing prior to the Great Schism.

Thank God for the Great Schism!

 

[Major1]

The Catholic Church did not invent the dogma of the Trinity. But when the question of the deity of Christ was under attack, it formalized the dogma so that there was no doubt, using the model given in Scripture for the Church to resolve conflict and profess the truth (Acts 15). The model it has used for 2000 years.

But there are people who reject the truth of the Trinity as defined by the Church and rely on their own interpretation of what the Scripture means. Something else that continues to this day.

I am glad to see that you agree on who invented the Trinity.

It is through a careful study of God’s Word, the church was finally able to articulate what the Bible clearly teaches and what they knew to be true—God exists as an eternal Trinity.

 

[Major1]

Is it determined by the valid authority Christ established in His Church -- the pillar and bulwark of the truth (1 Timothy 3:14-15)

John 17:17 corrects your idea my friend.............
"Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth."

 

[Major1]

The Bible has a lot to say about authority. I think if you do a word search of "authority" you will get 80+ hits. It speaks about the authority that secular leaders have, that parents have over their children, and the authority of men that God has placed over his people.

It never once in speaking about authority refers to itself. Not.One.Time.

2 Timothy 3:16 is indeed the strongest statement that Scripture makes about itself. It says it is "useful." How that gets morphed into being that it's the only authority needed is beyond me.

You also have to examine it in context. St. Paul doesn't write that to the Galatians, or the Ephesians, or to the Corinthians. He writes that to Timothy, a man who has been ordained and Paul has been grooming to step into his shoes. Not to congregations of believers.

That is why he refers to Timothy as "man of God." That is an Old Testament term denoting a prophet. It's only used twice in the New Testament, and that is Paul referring to Timothy, someone who is stepping into the role of an apostle.

So indeed, for a validly ordained man who has been given the authority to teach and be entrusted with the Gospel, Scripture is indeed useful as the passage says. But to turn that into the belief that Scripture "alone is authoritative for the faith and practice of the Christian?" More than a far stretch. Especially of an individual Christian since the statement was written to a church leader, not a congregation of believers.

But perhaps some references to what the Bible teaches about the Church and its authority would be useful:

• Jesus tells the apostles that those who receive them, receive him (Matthew 10:40, John 13:20)
• Jesus gives the apostles the authority to bind and loose (Matthew 18:18)
• God takes that which is Christ's and give it to the apostles (John 16:14-15)
• Jesus gives the apostles authority over unclean spirits (Mark 6:7,13, Luke 9:1-2)
• The apostles commanded and expected obedience (2 Thessalonians 3:4-15)
• The faithful are to obey and submit to their leaders (Hebrews 13:17)
• The apostles have the authority to discipline (2 Corinthians 13:2, 13:9-10)
• Jesus gave the apostles the authority to teach (Matthew 28:19-20) and to preach (Mark 3:14)
• Jesus entrusted the apostes with the Gospel (1 Thessalonians 2:3-4), 1 Timothy 1:11, Titus 1:3, 1 Timothy 20,2 Timothy 1:14)
• God commissioned the apostles and guarantees their preaching with the Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 1:21-22) and he spreads knowledge of Himself through them (2 Corinthians 2:14-17)
• God gives the apostles the authority to forgive sins (John 20:23). He even "breathes" on them. As Scripture is God-breathed, so is the Church
• God's wisdom is to be made known through the church (Ephesians 3:10-11)
• The Church is the pillar and the bulwark of the truth (1 Timothy 3:14-15)
• The Church is the final deciding point in resolving conflict (Matthew 18:15-20)
• Jesus, through the apostles will lead the Church into all truth (John 16:12-13)
• Local church pastors were to be appointed by someone outside and over the congregation, not hired by them (Acts 14:23, Titus 1:5). Ask yourself why St. Paul never sent the qualifications for church leadership to a local congregation, but rather to Timothy and Titus. The entire act of a congregation hiring their own pastor is most certainly not Biblical. Where do you ever see that happen in Scripture?

The ROOT of your comments rest on the phrase......."God gave the apostles authority".

That is correct and I agree with it.

However......there are NO APOSTLES TODAY. There has been NO apostles since John died on Patmos.

That means your whole theology on the church of Rome being the authority of Christians is meaningless my friend.

To be an Apostle the Bible says in Acts 1:12-26, one had ........
1. One needed to have been with Jesus during the whole three years that Jesus was among them.

2. One needed to be an eyewitness of Jesus’ baptism when the Heavenly Father validated Jesus’ person and work.

3. He needed to have heard Jesus’ life-changing teachings and been present to see His healings and other miracles.

4. He needed to have witnessed Jesus sacrifice Himself on the cross and to have seen Jesus walk, talk, and eat among the disciples again after His resurrection.

These were the pivotal facts of Jesus’ life, the heart of the message they were to teach, and personal witnesses were required to verify the truth of the good news.

Because NO ONE can or has done those things then NO ONE can be an apostle today.

 

[narnia59]

The ROOT of your comments rest on the phrase......."God gave the apostles authority".

That is correct and I agree with it.

However......there are NO APOSTLES TODAY. There has been NO apostles since John died on Patmos.

That means your whole theology on the church of Rome being the authority of Christians is meaningless my friend.

To be an Apostle the Bible says in Acts 1:12-26, one had ........
1. One needed to have been with Jesus during the whole three years that Jesus was among them.

2. One needed to be an eyewitness of Jesus’ baptism when the Heavenly Father validated Jesus’ person and work.

3. He needed to have heard Jesus’ life-changing teachings and been present to see His healings and other miracles.

4. He needed to have witnessed Jesus sacrifice Himself on the cross and to have seen Jesus walk, talk, and eat among the disciples again after His resurrection.

These were the pivotal facts of Jesus’ life, the heart of the message they were to teach, and personal witnesses were required to verify the truth of the good news.

Because NO ONE can or has done those things then NO ONE can be an apostle today.

The criteria you have given is to be numbered among the twelve, not to be an apostle. It is when the apostles are determining who is to replace Judas. The "twelve" are indeed special.

But Scripture clearly refers to St. Paul as an apostle, and he meets none of those criteria (Acts 14:14, Romans 1:1, Romans 11:13). So no, what you have listed is not the criteria to be an apostle, it is the criteria to be counted among the twelve.

The problem you have with accepting all of those Scriptures about the authority the apostles had and rejecting the reality that authority continues in the Church is this – it means that Jesus set things up for the Church to be led by a group of men who had his authority, and then when the apostles died it was to become “Scripture alone.” Isn’t that important enough the Bible would have at least mentioned that this was a “temporary” set up to be replaced by something totally different?

Rather, the Bible clearly shows us that this authority was in no way “temporary” but to live in perpetuity in the Church.

In Ephesians 4:10-14 St. Paul writes -- 10 He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things. 11 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipment of the saints, for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles.

So by Paul’s own words, some should be apostles until we all attain to those things. Has that already happened? If so, we no longer need evangelists, pastors, and teachers either.

Consider the great Commission that Jesus gives to the eleven apostles -- 18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world. (Matthew 28:18-20)

Who is this command given to? Not every believer, the apostles. Yet Jesus says to the apostles that he will be with them all days, even to the end of the world. So yes, there are still apostles.

And then go read Paul’s two letters to Timothy. He has cleared groomed Timothy to succeed him – to be entrusted with the Gospel and given the authority of an apostle. I’ll ask you again – why does Paul only send the criteria for a pastor to Timothy and Titus with instructions to appoint them? Why doesn’t he send them to a group of believers so they can hire their own? The answer is because that is a completely unBiblical practice.

I’m going to create a new post and include what Paul says to Timothy. Do you want to argue that Timothy is not given the authority of an apostle – to teach, to be entrusted with the Gospel, to discipline? That’s a pretty hard sell. Timothy received this authority from “the laying on of hands” of those who had been given the authority by Christ do so, and was also given the authority to then “lay hands” on others. That's called "apostolic succession" and Paul's letters to Timothy make it clear that was the plan, and far from "Scripture alone," Scripture would be useful to him in that role.

 

[narnia59]

What Paul writes to Timothy

Timothy 1:3-7 3 As I urged you when I was going to Macedo′nia, remain at Ephesus that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine, 4 nor to occupy themselves with myths and endless genealogies which promote speculations rather than the divine training that is in faith; 5 whereas the aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and sincere faith. 6 Certain persons by swerving from these have wandered away into vain discussion, 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make assertions.

Timothy 1:18-19 18 This charge I commit to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophetic utterances which pointed to you, that inspired by them you may wage the good warfare, 19 holding faith and a good conscience.

1 Timothy 4:1 If you put these instructions before the brethren, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the words of the faith and of the good doctrine which you have followed.

1 Timothy 4:11-16 11 Command and teach these things. 12 Let no one despise your youth, but set the believers an example in speech and conduct, in love, in faith, in purity. 13 Till I come, attend to the public reading of scripture, to preaching, to teaching. 14 Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophetic utterance when the elders laid their hands upon you. 15 Practice these duties, devote yourself to them, so that all may see your progress. 16 Take heed to yourself and to your teaching; hold to that, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

1 Timothy 5:7 (referring to instructions for widows) 7 Command this, so that they may be without reproach.

1 Timothy 5:20-22 20 As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. 21 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without favor, doing nothing from partiality. 22 Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, nor participate in another man’s sins; keep yourself pure.

1 Timothy 6:2-4 Teach and urge these duties. 3 If any one teaches otherwise and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching which accords with godliness, 4 he is puffed up with conceit, he knows nothing;

1 Timothy 6:11 11 But as for you, man of God, shun all this; aim at righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness

1 Timothy 6:17 17 As for the rich in this world, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on uncertain riches but on God who richly furnishes us with everything to enjoy

1 Timothy 20-21 20 O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you. Avoid the godless chatter and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 for by professing it some have missed the mark as regards the faith. Grace be with you.

2 Timothy 1:6-7 6 Hence I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands; 7 for God did not give us a spirit of timidity but a spirit of power and love and self-control.

2 Timothy 13:14 13 Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; 14 guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us.

2 Timothy 2:2,7 2 You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, 2 and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also… 7 Think over what I say, for the Lord will grant you understanding in everything.

(2 Timothy 2:2 outlines 4 generations of apostolic succession right there in Scripture. Paul entrusted Timothy with the Gospel and instructed him to entrust it to faithful men who could then teach others.)

2 Timothy 2:14-15 14 Remind them of this, and charge them before the Lord to avoid disputing about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

2 Timothy 3:10-17 10 Now you have observed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life, my faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness, 11 my persecutions, my sufferings, what befell me at Antioch, at Ico′nium, and at Lystra, what persecutions I endured; yet from them all the Lord rescued me. 12 Indeed all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evil men and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceivers and deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it 15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

2 Timothy 4:1-5 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2 preach the word, be urgent in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths. 5 As for you, always be steady, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfil your ministry.

Apostolic succession, clearly in Scripture. Anyone who claims to have the authority Timothy has, who did not receive the laying on of hands in that chain that started and continued to this day has no apostolic authority. But there are indeed those who do.

 

[narnia59]

John 17:17 corrects your idea my friend.............
"Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth."

Scripture uses the Greek word "graphe" when it's speaking specifically about Scripture as in 2 Timothy 3:16, and is translated as Scripture.

The Greek word "logos" that is translated as "word" in Scripture is much more. Scripture, the written word of God is certainly part of the logos, although I've only found one place in Scripture that even makes that connection. But the logos is first and foremost Christ. It is also the oral proclamation of the Gospel by the apostles. And it also refers to the body of believers, the Church. Logos is used in all of these ways in Scripture (let me know if I need to provide all the specific passages). What the logos is NOT however, is Scripture ALONE.

So yes, we are to be sanctified by the logos Who is Truth. Christ does this through His Holy Spirit dwelling within us, through the written word, through the oral teaching, and through the Church. Logos.

 

[narnia59]

I am glad to see that you agree on who invented the Trinity.

It is through a careful study of God’s Word, the church was finally able to articulate what the Bible clearly teaches and what they knew to be true—God exists as an eternal Trinity.

The Catholic Church has never invented a doctrine. It simply addresses heresies as they occur by formulating a more defined teaching that helps to eliminate false teaching. This is what the apostles did in Acts 15, it is what the Church did at the council of Nicea in the 4th century when the dogma of the Trinity was declared, and it's what it has continued to do through the centuries.

 

[narnia59]

Thank God for the Great Schism!

Schism is never from God.

 

[Major1]

Schism is never from God.

Really. Have you considered 1 Corth. 11:19.............
"for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized."

Have YOU considered that God may be trying to tell YOU something???

Now lets be clear on this. It seems to me that the Schism or Great Schism, in the history of the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH was from the period from around 1300 to 1500 approx. And if my memory is correct it was when there were two, and later three, rival POPES, each with his own following, his own Sacred College of Cardinals, and his own administrative offices. Now the question I have is this.......was that "Schism" in the CATHOLIC Church from God or was it from evil men??????

That leaves you with a really hard choice doesn't it since you said "SCHISM'S"
are never from God.

Now then, Should false UN-BIBLICAL teachings not be challenged or corrected????

Should Jim Jones have been confronted and exposed?

What about Joseph Smith? Should his heresy be ignored.

What about Ellen G. White. Should her false comments and prophecies be ignored???

 

[Major1]

The Catholic Church has never invented a doctrine. It simply addresses heresies as they occur by formulating a more defined teaching that helps to eliminate false teaching. This is what the apostles did in Acts 15, it is what the Church did at the council of Nicea in the 4th century when the dogma of the Trinity was declared, and it's what it has continued to do through the centuries.

The Catholic Church has never invented a doctrine??????

Really? Do you want to rethink that comment for awhile my friend???

I am going to post a few invented doctrines of the RCC for you which are NOT found in any Bible translation........

Wax Candles introduced in church .................................................A.D. 320
Veneration of angels and dead saints.................................................... 375
The Mass, as a daily celebration, ..............................................adopted 394
The worship of Mary, the mother of Jesus,
and the use of the term, "Mother of God",
as applied to her, originated in the Council of Ephesus .........................431

The doctrine of Purgatory was first established by Gregory the Great... 593
The kissing of the Pope's feet.................................................................709
The celibacy of the priesthood by Pope Hildebrand, Boniface VII..........1079
The Rosary, was introduced by Peter the Hermit, ................................ 1090
The doctrine of Purgatory, dogma of faith by Council of Florence..........1439
The Immaculate Conception was proclaimed by Pope Pius IX................1834

So, is that enough or would you need to see more Catholic Church "Invented Doctrines".....NOT FOUND IN THE WORD OF GOD.

 

[Major1]

Scripture uses the Greek word "graphe" when it's speaking specifically about Scripture as in 2 Timothy 3:16, and is translated as Scripture.

The Greek word "logos" that is translated as "word" in Scripture is much more. Scripture, the written word of God is certainly part of the logos, although I've only found one place in Scripture that even makes that connection. But the logos is first and foremost Christ. It is also the oral proclamation of the Gospel by the apostles. And it also refers to the body of believers, the Church. Logos is used in all of these ways in Scripture (let me know if I need to provide all the specific passages). What the logos is NOT however, is Scripture ALONE.

So yes, we are to be sanctified by the logos Who is Truth. Christ does this through His Holy Spirit dwelling within us, through the written word, through the oral teaching, and through the Church. Logos.

Allow me to help you a little here. Yes, The word Logos is used in many ways, yet in John’s Gospel Logos is a clear reference to Jesus, the God-Man who both created us and lived among us. Logos became a theological term important to Christians in the early church and remains a concept of significant influence today, however, it has been a very long time since I studied the Greek language but to the best of my knowledge.......
John does NOT USE that word to describe believers or the Church.

There are three primary uses for the word logos in the New Testament:

1. Logos in its standard meaning designates a word, speech, or the act of speaking (Acts 7:22).
2. Logos in its special meaning refers to the special revelation of God to people (Mark 7:13).
3. Logos in its unique meaning personifies the revelation of God as Jesus the Messiah (John 1:14

 

[narnia59]

Really. Have you considered 1 Corth. 11:19.............
"for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized."

Have YOU considered that God may be trying to tell YOU something???

Now lets be clear on this. It seems to me that the Schism or Great Schism, in the history of the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH was from the period from around 1300 to 1500 approx. And if my memory is correct it was when there were two, and later three, rival POPES, each with his own following, his own Sacred College of Cardinals, and his own administrative offices. Now the question I have is this.......was that "Schism" in the CATHOLIC Church from God or was it from evil men??????

That leaves you with a really hard choice doesn't it since you said "SCHISM'S"
are never from God.

Now then, Should false UN-BIBLICAL teachings not be challenged or corrected????

Should Jim Jones have been confronted and exposed?

What about Joseph Smith? Should his heresy be ignored.

What about Ellen G. White. Should her false comments and prophecies be ignored???

The "Great Schism" is the historical reference to the split of the Catholics and Orthodox in 1054, which had been united in faith for 1000 years prior.

I am not advocating that heresy should be ignored. Heresy is not from God and it is what causes schisms. Therefore schisms are not from God.

Paul recognizes that the Corinthians have divisions but they are not from God, nor does he thank God for them. And he tells them at the beginning of that letter "I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment." (1 Corinthians 1:10).

He then exerts his apostolic authority to correct their errors that they may truly be one, as Jesus prays we will be (John 17:21). For those who would not be willing to accept his authority and would choose to break away to form their "own" church -- that would be schism. And it would not be from God, but from the pride of men.

 

[Major1]

What Paul writes to Timothy

Timothy 1:3-7 3 As I urged you when I was going to Macedo′nia, remain at Ephesus that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine, 4 nor to occupy themselves with myths and endless genealogies which promote speculations rather than the divine training that is in faith; 5 whereas the aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and sincere faith. 6 Certain persons by swerving from these have wandered away into vain discussion, 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make assertions.

Timothy 1:18-19 18 This charge I commit to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophetic utterances which pointed to you, that inspired by them you may wage the good warfare, 19 holding faith and a good conscience.

1 Timothy 4:1 If you put these instructions before the brethren, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the words of the faith and of the good doctrine which you have followed.

1 Timothy 4:11-16 11 Command and teach these things. 12 Let no one despise your youth, but set the believers an example in speech and conduct, in love, in faith, in purity. 13 Till I come, attend to the public reading of scripture, to preaching, to teaching. 14 Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophetic utterance when the elders laid their hands upon you. 15 Practice these duties, devote yourself to them, so that all may see your progress. 16 Take heed to yourself and to your teaching; hold to that, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

1 Timothy 5:7 (referring to instructions for widows) 7 Command this, so that they may be without reproach.

1 Timothy 5:20-22 20 As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. 21 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without favor, doing nothing from partiality. 22 Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, nor participate in another man’s sins; keep yourself pure.

1 Timothy 6:2-4 Teach and urge these duties. 3 If any one teaches otherwise and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching which accords with godliness, 4 he is puffed up with conceit, he knows nothing;

1 Timothy 6:11 11 But as for you, man of God, shun all this; aim at righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness

1 Timothy 6:17 17 As for the rich in this world, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on uncertain riches but on God who richly furnishes us with everything to enjoy

1 Timothy 20-21 20 O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you. Avoid the godless chatter and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 for by professing it some have missed the mark as regards the faith. Grace be with you.

2 Timothy 1:6-7 6 Hence I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands; 7 for God did not give us a spirit of timidity but a spirit of power and love and self-control.

2 Timothy 13:14 13 Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; 14 guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us.

2 Timothy 2:2,7 2 You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, 2 and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also… 7 Think over what I say, for the Lord will grant you understanding in everything.

(2 Timothy 2:2 outlines 4 generations of apostolic succession right there in Scripture. Paul entrusted Timothy with the Gospel and instructed him to entrust it to faithful men who could then teach others.)

2 Timothy 2:14-15 14 Remind them of this, and charge them before the Lord to avoid disputing about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

2 Timothy 3:10-17 10 Now you have observed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life, my faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness, 11 my persecutions, my sufferings, what befell me at Antioch, at Ico′nium, and at Lystra, what persecutions I endured; yet from them all the Lord rescued me. 12 Indeed all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evil men and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceivers and deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it 15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

2 Timothy 4:1-5 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2 preach the word, be urgent in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths. 5 As for you, always be steady, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfil your ministry.

Apostolic succession, clearly in Scripture. Anyone who claims to have the authority Timothy has, who did not receive the laying on of hands in that chain that started and continued to this day has no apostolic authority. But there are indeed those who do.

Now, anyone reading those Scriptures will respond with......But where is the "Succession of the office of Apostle" found?????????????

The CONTEXT of Paul charging Timothy was about his position as a Church Pastor......
NOT AN APOSTLE!!!!

JESUS CHOOSE THE APOSTLES.

Now allow me to be very, very clear here. THERE IS NO BIBLE SCRIPTURES THAT RECORD APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION.

Acts chapter 1 is the only place in Scripture where we’re given the qualifications for being an apostle or becoming an apostle…the only place!

In Acts 1:21, the Apostle Peter says that the next apostle…the one to replace Judas, must be...........
“one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us.”

Now allow me to post that again for anyone who does not understand those words...........
“one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us.”

Clearly, this would rule out everyone living today because none of us where there during Jesus’ earthly ministry, “during all the time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us.”

No human today could be qualified to be one of the apostles because they were not with “the Lord Jesus” when He “went in and out among” the other apostles.

This is not brain surgery. Those words mean what that say and it means that there CAN NOT BE AN APOSTLE TODAY.

 

[narnia59]

Allow me to help you a little here. Yes, The word Logos is used in many ways, yet in John’s Gospel Logos is a clear reference to Jesus, the God-Man who both created us and lived among us. Logos became a theological term important to Christians in the early church and remains a concept of significant influence today, however, it has been a very long time since I studied the Greek language but to the best of my knowledge.......
John does NOT USE that word to describe believers or the Church.

There are three primary uses for the word logos in the New Testament:

1. Logos in its standard meaning designates a word, speech, or the act of speaking (Acts 7:22).
2. Logos in its special meaning refers to the special revelation of God to people (Mark 7:13).
3. Logos in its unique meaning personifies the revelation of God as Jesus the Messiah (John 1:14

In the book of Acts it is used in reference to believers entering the Church -- the word of God "increased" and "grew and multiplied" as the Church grew.

Acts 6:7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were obedient to the faith

Acts 12:24 But the word of God grew and multiplied.

But we agree that "logos" is not a reference to Scripture alone it seems. So it is always confusing to me when people attempt to use it to support a theology of Scripture alone.

Your previous example -- John 17:17 -- "Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth."
From the last supper where Jesus had just told the apostles that HE is the Truth (John 14:6). He is who sanctifies us. Sacred Scripture is certainly one of the ways he does that in our lives, but not the only way.

 

[narnia59]

Now, anyone reading those Scriptures will respond with......But where is the "Succession of the office of Apostle" found?????????????

The CONTEXT of Paul charging Timothy was about his position as a Church Pastor......
NOT AN APOSTLE!!!!

JESUS CHOOSE THE APOSTLES.

Now allow me to be very, very clear here. THERE IS NO BIBLE SCRIPTURES THAT RECORD APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION.

Acts chapter 1 is the only place in Scripture where we’re given the qualifications for being an apostle or becoming an apostle…the only place!

In Acts 1:21, the Apostle Peter says that the next apostle…the one to replace Judas, must be...........
“one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us.”

Now allow me to post that again for anyone who does not understand those words...........
“one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us.”

Clearly, this would rule out everyone living today because none of us where there during Jesus’ earthly ministry, “during all the time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us.”

No human today could be qualified to be one of the apostles because they were not with “the Lord Jesus” when He “went in and out among” the other apostles.

This is not brain surgery. Those words mean what that say and it means that there CAN NOT BE AN APOSTLE TODAY.

So is Scripture in error when it refers to Paul as an apostle since he doesn't meet the qualifications? It would seem you have to conclude it is based upon your comments here.

Paul refers to Timothy as an apostle in 1 Thessalonians 2:6

 

[Major1]

The "Great Schism" is the historical reference to the split of the Catholics and Orthodox in 1054, which had been united in faith for 1000 years prior.

I am not advocating that heresy should be ignored. Heresy is not from God and it is what causes schisms. Therefore schisms are not from God.

Paul recognizes that the Corinthians have divisions but they are not from God, nor does he thank God for them. And he tells them at the beginning of that letter "I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment." (1 Corinthians 1:10).

He then exerts his apostolic authority to correct their errors that they may truly be one, as Jesus prays we will be (John 17:21). For those who would not be willing to accept his authority and would choose to break away to form their "own" church -- that would be schism. And it would not be from God, but from the pride of men.

What you actually waid was that...."A Schism can never come from God".

So then your response is that the 3 Roman Catholic Popes were consumed by the sin of PRIDE.

That means then that none of those 3 CATHOLIC POPES were "Infallible"!!!

Hummmm. It looks like you are going to need a Catholic Apologetic web site to explain this one.

 

[narnia59]

The Catholic Church has never invented a doctrine??????

Really? Do you want to rethink that comment for awhile my friend???

I am going to post a few invented doctrines of the RCC for you which are NOT found in any Bible translation........

Wax Candles introduced in church .................................................A.D. 320
Veneration of angels and dead saints.................................................... 375
The Mass, as a daily celebration, ..............................................adopted 394
The worship of Mary, the mother of Jesus,
and the use of the term, "Mother of God",
as applied to her, originated in the Council of Ephesus .........................431

The doctrine of Purgatory was first established by Gregory the Great... 593
The kissing of the Pope's feet.................................................................709
The celibacy of the priesthood by Pope Hildebrand, Boniface VII..........1079
The Rosary, was introduced by Peter the Hermit, ................................ 1090
The doctrine of Purgatory, dogma of faith by Council of Florence..........1439
The Immaculate Conception was proclaimed by Pope Pius IX................1834

So, is that enough or would you need to see more Catholic Church "Invented Doctrines".....NOT FOUND IN THE WORD OF GOD.

You should find better anti-Catholic resources.

First of all, several of those aren't "doctrines" at all.

Second, a doctrine is generally not formally defined until there is some need or heresy that requires clarification. That is why if you pulled this list from a Jehovah Witness site, it would include the Trinity, invented in 325 AD.

However, we both know the Trinity wasn't invented in 325 AD, that is simply when heresy required it to be formally defined.

So take, learn, and apply that knowledge to the other things on your list that are actually doctrines. The year they are formally defined is NOT the year they first appear in Church teaching. It is simply when a formal definition became necessary.

 

[narnia59]

What you actually waid was that...."A Schism can never come from God".

So then your response is that the 3 Roman Catholic Popes were consumed by the sin of PRIDE.

That means then that none of those 3 CATHOLIC POPES were "Infallible"!!!

Hummmm. It looks like you are going to need a Catholic Apologetic web site to explain this one.

Only one was a legitimate pope, it was sorted out before it ever became a schism.

Much like the issues recorded in the New Testamant over whether Gentiles need to keep the Jewish law caused much strife. But it was sorted out before it ever became schism.