Who is the true Israel of God?

[ewq1938]

 

[keras]

Galatians 6:14-16 But far be it from me to boast, save in the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ…….all that counts is new [personal] creation. All who take this principal as their guide: peace and mercy be upon them, the Israel of God. Revised English Bible

The proper interpretation and translation of the last phrase in Galatians 6:16 has become a matter of controversy in the past century or so. Formerly, "The Israel of God" was understood as a name for the Church. The καὶ ("and") which precedes the phrase upon the Israel of God, was understood as an explicative καὶ. This understanding of the grammar is reflected in the Revised Standard Version's Peace and mercy be upon all who walk by this rule, upon the Israel of God, and in the New International Version's:...even to the Israel of God. It is not necessary, to understand the καὶ as an explicative in order to get substantially the same sense. If it be regarded as an ordinary connective καὶ, the all who take this principal, correctly refers to the individual Christians, Jewish and Gentile, and Israel of God to the same Christians, regarded collectively: the entire messianic community."

So the rendering "and upon the Israel of God" (KJV and others) is acceptable enough, provided it is not misapplied. In any case, it is clear that in this verse Paul cannot be pronouncing a benediction upon persons who are not included in: All who keep the Christian rule….The entire argument of the epistle prevents any idea that here in 6:16 he would give a blessing to those who are not Christians.
The phrase has become controversial because the traditional interpretation conflicts with principles of interpretation associated with Dispensationalism. Dispensationalists, those who believe in a ‘rapture to heaven’, insist on maintaining a sharp distinction between "Israel" and "the Church".
They refute the idea that here Paul is using the phrase "Israel of God" in a sense that includes Gentiles, because this undermines their contention that "the Church" is distinguished from "Israel" in Scripture. This major tenet of dispensationalist hermeneutics, is a false teaching.

 

[Douggg]

They refute the idea that here Paul is using the phrase "Israel of God" in a sense that includes Gentiles, because this undermines their contention that "the Church" is distinguished from "Israel" in Scripture. This major tenet of dispensationalist hermeneutics, is a false teaching.

I am not a dispensationalist. But Israel is a nation of the descendants of the twelve tribes. Of those descendants, those that are Christians are considered the Israel of God.

All of Israel will eventually become Christians - after the body of Christ, the church, has left this world - as them taken in the rapture/resurrection become the bride of Christ.

Israel is considered the wife of God. But it is currently a estranged relationship because of Israel's rejection of Jesus.

Which that relationship will be repaired when she embraces Jesus as Lord, King, Savior - saying blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. Thus, all Israel at that time will be saved, and all Israel will be the "Israel of God". Whereas now, only a portion are.

 

[keras]

I am not a dispensationalist. But Israel is a nation of the descendants of the twelve tribes. Of those descendants, those that are Christians are considered the Israel of God.

Your mistake is in thinking that the Jewish State of Israel is all of the 12 tribes. This is quite wrong and even the Jews admit they are only descended from Judah and Benjamin, plus some Levites.
The bulk of ethnic Israel, the Northern ten tribes remain scattered around the world, as James 1:1 and 1 Peter 1:1 confirm.
It is them, you and me, that have accepted Christianity. thereby becoming the Israel of God.
We will rejoin with Judah as per Ezekiel 37:15-27, something that plainly hasn't happened yet.

All of Israel will eventually become Christians - after the body of Christ, the church, has left this world - as them taken in the rapture/resurrection become the bride of Christ.

Not going to happen, Dougg! Anytime rapture? A fanciful dream.
You miss the many prophesies that say only a remnant of Judah will be saved and it is Christians from every tribe, race, nation and language who are bought by Jesus blood. And THEY will reign on earth. Revelation 5:9-10 Any other belief simply fails to conform to scripture.

 

[Straightshot]

What folly Keras promotes

The "Israel of God" is stated in only one scripture of the Bible as Paul is speaking to some of the converts of ethnic Israel in the first century

These early converts of Judaism were rightly addressed as the "true" Israel of God

This term is never applied to the church consisting of both a few of Israel and mostly of the Gentiles of the nations

And the idea that the 10 tribes of Israel are Gentiles is totally bogus .... this theology was born out of Herbert Armstrong and his mentors' perversions

Then Keras ties this mumbo-jumbo to his refutation of the Lord's early call for His true ecclesia .... easy to see the deceptions of this off course teaching by a Gentile who claims to be one of the "Israel of God"

This teaching is called replacement theology held by many of the divided of the professing "church" .... that the Lord is finished with His separate nation of Israel

.... this is purely antisemitic teaching

 

[ebedmelech]

The idea that the church replaced Israel is erroneous teaching as is the idea that Israel is separate from the church. They are both ONE. This is taught very clearly in Ephesians 2:11-22.

*Ephesians 2:11 declares the Ephesian saints to be "formerly Gentiles in the flesh".

*Ephesians 2:12 declares Gentiles before Christ were "excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world."

*Ephesians 2:13 declares that changes in Christ:
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

*Ephesians 2:14 declares Christ made Jews and Gentiles ONE:
14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,

*Ephesians 2:15 declares again Jews and Gentiles to be ONE NEW MAN in Christ:
15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,

Ephesians 2:16 again declares Jews and Gentiles to be ONE BODY when Christ put to death the law fulfilling it for both at the cross:
16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

Ephesians 2:17, 18 again declares ONENESS of Jews and Gentiles in Christ by the Gospel:
17 And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near;
18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.

Ephesians 2:19 sums it up that Jews and Gentiles are FELLOW CITIZENS in Christ:
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household,

To separate Israel or the Church after the cross is simply wrong. This is the fulfillment of of Christ becoming GOD'S SERVANT ISRAEL clearly declared in Isaiah 49.

Some of the worst teaching separating Israel and the church is the "Left Behind" teaching. I used to be in that stuff many years back, but I simply read the bible and rejected what was basically bad eschatology that I was being taught.

One Israel, which is spiritual...made up of Jews and Gentiles through the salvation of the gospel. This declared by Paul in Romans 9:6-8...but many just can't get it.

 

[Straightshot]

Explain the following scriptures for starters ebe:

[Isaiah 11; Jeremiah 30; Ezekiel 36; 37; 38; 40-48; Daniel 9:24-27; Joel 2; 3; Micah 5; Zechariah 12; 13; 14; Matthew 24; Luke 21:21-36; Revelation 7:1-8; 11; 14:1-7;

Then we will talk about more

 

[ebedmelech]

Explain the following scriptures for starters ebe:

[Isaiah 11; Jeremiah 30; Ezekiel 36; 37; 38; 40-48; Daniel 9:24-27; Joel 2; 3; Micah 5; Zechariah 12; 13; 14; Matthew 24; Luke 21:21-36; Revelation 7:1-8; 11; 14:1-7;

Then we will talk about more

For starters we have to let these passages speak not according to one's theology or eschatology...but for what they say. I'm not going to deal with all in this post, but I will deal with Isaiah 11...then if you wish we can move to the next:

*Isaiah 11:1-10 is Messianic and declares the coming of Christ to all! Please note that Isaiah 11:10 declares the Gentiles in this prophecy. It equally speaks of Christ as judge of all. It is an overview of all that Christ will do as Messiah.

*At Isaiah 11:11 one has to be careful because this passage identifies it's time frame:

11 Then it will happen on that day that the Lord Will again recover the second time with His hand
The remnant of His people, who will remain, From Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath,
And from the islands of the sea.

This is a SECOND regathering! However it is A REMNANT of God's people. This remnant are those Paul speaks of in Romans 9:27-29 as well as Romans 11:5.

*However at Isaiah 11:12 the passage again repeats Isaiah 11:10, which speaks of Christ coming again gathering THE NATIONS, ISRAEL, and JUDAH:

12 And He will lift up a standard for the nations And assemble the banished ones of Israel, And will gather the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth.

The "STANDARD" is Christ in the passage and He is gathering His people from the nations, Israel, and Judah IN CHRIST!!! This is salvation in Christ pure and simple!!!

The remainder of the passage is how this gathering, which is under the New Covenant does away with any partiality of God's people under Christ as Isaiah 11:16 sums up:
16 And there will be a highway from Assyria For the remnant of His people who will be left, Just as there was for Israel In the day that they came up out of the land of Egypt.

The comparison is that of Israel crossing the Red sea where God prepared a way for them by parting it for them to cross over.

In the same way Jesus prepares a spiritual highway which is declared all through Isaiah:

Isaiah 19:23, Isaiah 35:8, Isaiah 40:3 and Isaiah 62:10

 

[Straightshot]

Isaiah
11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

A clear difference between Israel and the Gentiles of the nations is presented, past and future

So I don't buy your story

Address the other scriptures I have given that do the same thing

I want to see how you address them

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

This question can be put as: Who are the legitimate heirs of God’s promises?

Whoever has the SON , has LIFE.
Whoever has not the SON, has not LIFE.
Simple.
Dispensational ? Sometimes.
Non-Dispensational ? Sometimes.
YHWH doesn't fit HIMSELF into man's denominations, businesses, groups, religious or otherwise.

The true Israelites of God are those individuals who meet the Covenant conditions, who by belief in God and in their moral and ethical behavior, prove they belong to Him.

They can try. (to meet whatever "Covenant conditions" they want to .)
As I see it from Scripture, and all of man's wrangling,
it won't help or make a difference.

Either they are born again, (in TRUTH, by YHWH ABBA)
or they are not born again.

 

[keras]

A clear difference between Israel and the Gentiles of the nations is presented, past and future
So I don't buy your story

We all know that you must maintain the separation between Israel and the Church in order for the rapture theory to be possible.
Firstly, understand what is meant by those two terms; Israel doesn't mean the current Jewish State of Israel, but literally 'the overcomers of God'.
The Church isn't the current established organizations, with their ostentatious buildings, etc, but individuals like the 7000 reserved by God in Elijah's time. They are true believers, scattered around the world, God's righteous people.
So those people are one and the same; they are God's people and the rest of the world, incl unbelieving Jews and every ungodly person are not.

The Lord's promise to His people, is for them to occupy His holy Land, never is it said they will go to heaven. They will be protected during His Day of fiery wrath, that will devastate the world.
Wait for the Day when I stand up to accuse you! I will gather peoples in order to pour My fiery wrath upon them, in My burning anger. The whole earth will be devastated by the heat of My judgement. Zephaniah 3:8, 2 Peter 3:7

 

[Straightshot]

"We all know that you must maintain the separation between Israel and the Church in order for the rapture theory to be possible."

Only your broken story .... over and over again

The Lord's pre-tribulation call for His true ecclesia is a different matter altogether and is going to happen regardless, the is no dependant connection

His nation of Israel is for His own purposes as presented in scripture from Genesis to Revelation .... unbroken and consistent

To say otherwise is to stand against Him and this theology should be suspect

 

[keras]

To say otherwise is to stand against Him and this theology should be suspect

We all know your beliefs and how you deride and judge those who challenge them.
This thread has just had a clean up by the Mods, but you continue to post accusations and threats without proofs or any proper exegesis of scripture. Please leave this thread to those who discuss issues rationally and truthfully.

 

[ebedmelech]

Isaiah
11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

A clear difference between Israel and the Gentiles of the nations is presented, past and future

So I don't buy your story

Address the other scriptures I have given that do the same thing

I want to see how you address them

Actually you show that you don't want to accept all of the passage, only what you underline.

Who is "the ensign" for the nations...and why is both Israel and Judah included in it? The nations are the Gentiles...but obviously you don't understand that.

Jesus understood it clearly as He sent the apostles to ALL NATIONS to preach the gospel. Jesus even set the order in Acts 1:8:
8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”

 

[Straightshot]

"Who is "the ensign" for the nations...and why is both Israel and Judah included in it? The nations are the Gentiles...but obviously you don't understand that."


Clearly national ethnic Israel is the "ensign" to the the nations of the Gentiles .... the Lord's purpose is to make contrast between Israel and the nations of the Gentiles [the heathen]

All related scripture taken together verifies this truth and why I asked you to render the other scriptures I gave to you, but you refused

So until you comply with this reasonable and necessary request, I do not buy your token response taken out of context

 

[keras]

Clearly national ethnic Israel is the "ensign" to the the nations of the Gentiles .... the Lord's purpose is to make contrast between Israel and the nations of the Gentiles [the heathen]

No; there is no contrast between the apostate, atheistic and LGBT nation of Israel and the heathen nations. That is where you err greatly.

The only difference between peoples in God's eyes, is those who believe in Him, keep His Commandments and accept the atoning sacrifice of Jesus and every other person on earth who doesn't.
You are refuting scripture to say ethnicity still counts. Galatians 3:26-29

Ignoring my request to leave this thread, proves your rude behavior.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Y'SHUA said the JEW has many advantages.

Likewise, whoever is grafted in, many blessings,
including life on the narrow road that few find.

The only difference between peoples in God's eyes, is those who believe in Him, keep His Commandments and accept the atoning sacrifice of Jesus and every other person on earth who doesn't.

 

[ebedmelech]

"Who is "the ensign" for the nations...and why is both Israel and Judah included in it? The nations are the Gentiles...but obviously you don't understand that."


Clearly national ethnic Israel is the "ensign" to the the nations of the Gentiles .... the Lord's purpose is to make contrast between Israel and the nations of the Gentiles [the heathen]

No the passage clearly declares Christ to be the ensign (or flag, or banner). Just as Isaiah 10 points out that it is "the root of the stem of Jesse", which is clearly Jesus!

All related scripture taken together verifies this truth and why I asked you to render the other scriptures I gave to you, but you refused

No. I didn't refuse. I clearly stated I would deal with each passage separately, as dealing with all of those passages would requires an extremely long post. I state again that I will gladly deal with each passage you supplied separately. The next passage would be Jeremiah 30...when you're ready, IF you're ready.

So until you comply with this reasonable and necessary request, I do not buy your token response taken out of context

Your request is not reasonable (which you already know). What would be reasonable is to deal with each passage separately as in some cases you list entire chapters such as Jeremiah 30, Ezekiel 36 and 37...etc. These are passages that cannot be dealt with in brevity.

What would be reasonable is to deal with each passage separately. When you're ready to do that, perhaps we can engage on the subject at hand. Otherwise I'll just continue to post my understanding of who the true Israel of God is.

I posted on this in rebuttal to Biblewriter on this very subject. It was a somewhat extensive 8 part post titled "The Case For The Israel of God" back in 2013.

For any who are interested in reading it, this is part 1:
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-case-for-the-israel-of-god-part-1.7723632/

 

[keras]

For any who are interested in reading it, this is part 1:

I read your article, it proves the truth of who is the true Israel of God.
But I have already proved this point and it is only those intransigent people who refuse to agree with it, because this truth destroys their rapture to heaven belief.

 

[Straightshot]

"No the passage clearly declares Christ to be the ensign (or flag, or banner). Just as Isaiah 10 points out that it is "the root of the stem of Jesse", which is clearly Jesus!"

Israel is the ensign

Now I want your rendering of Jeremiah 30 .... we will see how you try to wiggle out of this one