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who is the rightful owners of Palistine (Isreal today)

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by BULWARK, Apr 23, 2002.

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  1. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

    126
    +0
    although God gave Isreal the land that the jews are in, back in abraham time, they have not owned the land for the past 2000 yrs.

    so the land then belonged to the palastinianes for 100`s of yrs .

    now, in the 20th century we give it back to the jews and disposess the palastinans of there land (you would think the jews would remember what that feels like).

    so , who realy has the rights to the land of Isreal (Palistine)???


    is what the Isrealies doing Gods will???

    was it gods will to disposess the palastinians even though he knew it meant war for 100 yrs and disrupting world affairs because of the unfairness and injustice of the act???

    if it is god disposessing palistine , is it a holy move of god???/

    Is jeruselum holy regardless of the fighting because we say god is holy and he kills and disposesses humans at will , on a regular bassis???

    is this holy???

    who has the true right to the land?? :confused:
     
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  2. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

    +9
    United States
    Protestant
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    God Almighty is the rightful owner. Everything is moving along according to His devine plan. Jerusalem will be a cup of trembling, a burdensome stone and a stumblingblock to the nations. We will never see (true) Peace until after the seven year tribulation, which will start with 3 1/2 years of (false) peace, followed by the wrath of God.
     
  3. Yauming

    Yauming Member

    368
    +1
    I'm not an expert in this but a significant part of the state of Israel is land bought by the Jews or land which Jew were already living in prior to the formation of Israel.

    It is simply not true that the Jews came and kicked off all the Arabs off their land.

    After WWII, the Jews from Europe migrated to British Palestine. There were already Jewish enclaves there. A number of Jews had been returning back to their ancient homeland since the late 18th century (not to mention the small number living there already). They used their money to buy the land back.

    During the War of Independence of 1947, the Jordanian Arab army threw out the Jews who were living in Jerusalem. The Arabs then threw out all the Jews who were living in their nations. They had no place to goto except Israel.

    In the Six Day war of 1967, the Israel army gained back their territory and then some.

    The main bone of contention has been the unwillingness of the Arab states to recognize the state of Israel. They have publicly vowed until very recently to kill all the Jews and eliminate their presence in the Middle East. You can't negotiate with such demands.

     
  4. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

    126
    +0
    hey Thunder,
    I thaught I read something you said somewere about Eze 38, that this war would happen while Isreal was in peace and security???

    did I missunderstanad you there???

    if the war of Eze 38 happens when there is peace and security in Isreal , how can that be happening now or soon considering that there is no peace or security in Isreal today????

    are you with me, I read this from something you wrote.

    jeopardy :)
     
  5. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

    126
    +0
    Hay thanks for that little history leason yauming :)

    that sheds a little bit of light on the subject.

    I wasn`t awear of those things.

    Maybe I should reconsider believing the jews were in the wrong.

    does anyone else have anything to add.

    thanks yauming :wave:

    by the way , what does yauming mean??
     
  6. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +3
    jeopardy_chaos,

    your original post had some good and important questions.
    One's end-time view DOES affect the way one views and shapes the world.

    Many believe [and I agree] that Israel has a right to a peaceful homeland. Not enough also believe IMO that the Palestinians ALSO have right to a peaceful homeland. It is insensitive and immoral to say "let the other Arab nations take them." It would be like America pushing into Canada and others standing by saying "let them go to France -they do speak French you know."

    The truth is the Palesinians were pushed aside to make way for the Israelis -this should have been better negotiated back when it happened.

    Many "futurists" today [but not all] turn a blind eye or rationalise away Israels ungodly treatment of Palestinians by saying things like "God gave Israel the Land forever" -which is then used to justify or ignore the murder of innocent people. Palestinians are as guilty in there reactive responses.

    jeopardy -take some time and read these scriptures.

    The promises to land were:

    1) conditional i.e., obedience Deut 28:15-68

    2) completely fulfilled "Not a word failed... All came to pass." -Josh 1:6; 11:23; 21:43-45. 1Kings 4:20-21 [Gen 15:18, Josh 1:4] Josh 23:14, Neh 9:7-8.

    Some say the promise was made "forever" -it was, but "forever" means "as long as God dealt with His people in a given manner." Eg: Circumcision was given as an "eternal or everlasting" sign of the old covenant. All the "shadows" of which land was one, were ALL fulfilled in Christ.

    Holding Israel up on a pedestal codoning their actions either through silence, or making outlandish remarks based on faulty biblical beliefs is reprehensible.

    Having said all that -it is just as evil that Paslestinian suicide bombers wreak the hovoc that they do.

    God does not sanction ANY of this violence -the only thing "playing out" here is sectarianism, God shows NO partiality! To say he does is to do violence to the Scriptures themselves.

    davo
     
  7. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

    126
    +0
    you make some good points dave, I was also thinking about the fact that god gave the land to Isreal on condition that they obay the laws of god.

    I think I need to do some more study on how isreal became a nation again.

    I am awear of the migratian before world war 2 and then the migration after the war and the 1967 war.

    can anyone tell me exactly how and why the jews started to go back to isreal after world war 1.

    Also, can anyone add to what yauming said concerning the Jews bying the land back???
     
  8. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +3
    No worries jeopardy :)

    The point I'm making is this: Whatever Israel does, rightly or wrongly has no bearing with regards to supposed "unfulfilled" promises in the bible. ALL WERE FULFILLED. The "special" people of God is the household of believers, where no racial distinctions exist [apart from the ones those ignorant of the scriptures put there -to the detriment of all].

    PS: it's important to read those scriptures :wave:

    davo
     
  9. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

    126
    +0
    hey dave,
    you now that prophesy in Eze 38 about Isreal.

    Thunder has a thread on it.

    well , that apears to be future to me.

    I know it is a bit off subject, but what is your take on that??

    when did that happen??

    I am interested in history so I will understand.

    thanks :yum:
     
  10. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

    328
    +0
    APART from the bible we need to seriously look at the history of the Israel/Palestinian dispute. It is undeniable that Israel is a sovereign nation defending itself against terrorism. Their war is different than ours in that it is fought in the streets of populated areas rather than remote mountain regions. It is impossible to avoid civilian casualities, but there is question as to whether Israel is making every effort to reduce those casualties.

    It is interesting the subtle twist Davo gives the issue by stating that 'it is just as evil that Paslestinian suicide bombers wreak the hovoc that they do.' This makes no distinction between Israel's defense of her citizens and terrorists who target innocent civilians. In my opinion the terrorists are much more evil and Israel's only transgression is perhaps in persuing terrorists without due regard for innocent civilians.
     
  11. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

    126
    +0
    I could agree that Israel is a sovereign state that has the right to retaliate or defend them selves.

    BUT

    I am curious about the history behind this Israelis sovereign state because this is what has made the Palestinians mad enough to commit suicide in doing terrorist acts just to get back at Israelis.(they would only do that because of hopelessness)

    I don’t know that I would agree about who is worse though??

    I wonder if we should have a dead civilian count from both sides.

    Who would have more, would be worse and that would be Israel.

    Willis, do you know much about how Israel became a state??

    Yauming said that the Jews started buying the land back.

    That sounds fair enough to me. :)
     
  12. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +3
    Yeah jeopardy, it staggers me how people can make such "blinked" statements like: "In my opinion the terrorists are much more evil and Israel's only transgression is perhaps in persuing terrorists without due regard for innocent civilians."

    The truth is, people in the "popular" venacular and climate demonise most Palestinians as terrorists -but don't consider tanks and air strike-power wiping out entire villages and the like in the same light -strange that, and yet apparently when Israelis make their illegal immoral incursions, well somehow that's different, it's not "terrorism," again strange -oh that's right, I almost forgot "they're only defending themselves" :( "For the life of me" -I wander if someone out there might think that maybe just perhaps the Palestinians may think they're doing the same thing -like, defending themselves [shock-horror could this be so??] There's nothing like good ol' christian consistancy -and if that's twisting the subtleties it's better than sticking one's head in the proverbial sand -like wake up and get real!! -the problem is not one sided.

    davo
     
  13. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

    126
    +0
    Yea, I agree Dave, it is defiantly not one-sided.

    That’s why I thought it wise to check out what had happened in the past for this to happen like it is.

    I also agree that it is weird and astounds me how people don’t think that bombing a whole country into oblivion is as bad as blowing a few civilians up or even a jet and a building.

    Sorry but the truth is that all those bombs from the good old US of A over the past 50 yrs have not only been the main contributor to terrorist acts but is the biggest terrorist act of all.

    Sorry, hope the truth doesn’t offend others to much, :pray: please don’t crucify me for speaking the truth as they did to Jesus when he told the truth to the Pharisees in matt ch 23 :D
     
  14. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

    +608
    Christian
    Married
    davo,

    You sound a little anti-semitic there. Tell us more about your opinion of the Jewish people. Doesn't God command us to love the Jewish people?
     
  15. Fish

    Fish New Member

    30
    +0
    This will definitely get me banned from here but,
    yes some of the jewish "settlers" paid for the
    houses they took, but the "sellers" had no
    choice but sell at gunpoint. Fair market value
    will be judged by God. The Palestinians are
    Semetic as well, so anti-"semetism" is a poor
    label.
    When Israel was seeking their independance,
    the terrorists were Jewish, and the targets were British
    Begin was a wanted man in England.
    I am sorry to make any of you all mad, but go ahead
    and ban me.
    Keep in mind of the terminology of late, and Israel's
    massacre of Palestinians were at a refugee camp.
    REFUGEE-one who flees from invasion, persucution,
    or political danger.
    They have been forced to live there for decades,
    enjoying the money they recieved from the selling of
    their homes.
    You all wonder why they might be angry. They are
    after all evil muslims, so they are wrong automatically.
    I speak against the evil I see there, so I am to be
    banned automatically as a non-christian. That is
    expected. As christians we should examine our beliefs
    so that we should not believe lies and/or half truths.
    I am not pro or con any race or group, but know
    lies when I see it. The killing of Palestinians of late
    will ensure no hope of peace for the region, as well
    as the suicide bombs from the Palestinians. Prayer
    for peace is the only hope.
    Fish
     
  16. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +3
    G'day Auntie :wave:

    That's the trouble when trying to to be fair -some take it as being opposed to one side. Jesus redefined the commandments into this "Love the Lord your God and your neighbour as yourself" -loving thy nieghbour is loving God. I am pro-Arab AND I am pro-Israeli. What I'm not "pro" is the unbiblical notion that God shows partiality. Since Christ brought in the New Covenant in His Blood there is no justifiable sheding of another's blood, hiding behind His Name. Many christians think modern day Palestine has been rubber stamped "for Israel" by God.

    The injunctions in the Old Testament around "praying for and or blessing Israel" etc ALL relate to them as the Old Covenant people of God under that dispensation. This situation or condition no longer exists [nor is it meant to] for those who are "believers in Christ" ARE joined to Israel, but not in a temporal racial sense but in a covenantal sense -the New Covenant. Christ's new covenant is ALL about "believers" becoming the people of God with NO racial basis whatsoever.

    Anti-Semitism is evil, as is the Arab equivalent, or any other "anti-". Jesus said "LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR" -good advice.

    davo
     
  17. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +3
    G'day Fish :wave:

    thanks for posting that -it clarifies a few things. "All" being 'Semites' must be true as they both have Abraham as their "father".

    davo
     
  18. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

    103
    +0
    when Jesus comes back it will belong to Him, there will be no more arguing over it :)

    Zechariah 2:11-12
    And many nations shall join themselves to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people; and I will dwell in the midst of you, and you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you. And the LORD will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land, and will again choose Jerusalem."


    :D
     
  19. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +3
    Choosing "Judah" and Jerusalem" is about choosing Israel via the new covenant, and that's happened :clap: . That's what Christ's Gospel is all about -making a people who were not a people into the people of God -that's why believers [of whatever ethicity] ARE the "Israel of God." The "Land," in Christ is no longer the promised land, but the Land of Promise i.e., SALVATION -and that Jesus fully established for ALL. All the temporal types and shadows are complete in Him 2Cor 1:20.

    davo
     
  20. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

    103
    +0
    LOL!! the preterist dispostion for dyslexic interpretaion is always amusing :D

    actually this scripture is a reference to the LAND that was alloted to the tribe of Judah, hence the words "Judah as his portion in the holy land" and when he does come he will rule personally from Jerusalem.

    i do not know about you personally, but i know many people like to think Christ will rule "through" church, but the Catholics tried that already with not real promising results...
     
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