Who is THE RESTRAINER

[Douggg]

2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3 disproves the Pre-Tribulation rapture. This is just an attempt to hang on

Those verses don't disprove the Pre-70th week rapture. But they don't mandate it, either. It is a possibility.

What we don't know is the how much time interval between the rapture and the act by the Antichrist in v4.

We have some basis for when the Antichrist commits the act, by him stopping the daily sacrifice in the middle of the 7 years, before committing the act.

 

[Berean Tim]

Those verses don't disprove the Pre-70th week rapture. But they don't mandate it, either. It is a possibility.

What we don't know is the how much time interval between the rapture and the act by the Antichrist in v4.

We have some basis for when the Antichrist commits the act, by him stopping the daily sacrifice in the middle of the 7 years, before committing the act.

2nd Thessalonians 2:1Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,4who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.
Seems pretty clear, that day (our being gathered together to him) won't happen until sometime after the mid-point

 

[Berean Tim]

Here's the BIBLICAL truth of the matter:
(1) The "Temple of God" to which Paul is referring is the one that was erect in Jerusalem at the time he is speaking. That was God's temple to the Hebrews since the times of Solomon, and it was still standing.

(2) The man of sin was alive at the time Paul is speaking (2 Thess 2:7). His accomplices in his work of rebellion were the "sons of disobedience" (Eph 2:2; Eph 5:6; Col 3:6), Judaizers who were set apart to receive God's wrath for their persecution of the apostles that were spreading the gospel of Christ to all the gentiles (1 Thess 2:14-16; Eph 5:6; Col 3:6). Judas, a member of the Zealots, had been a part of this political movement, and thus was called "son of perdition" (Jn 17:12/2 Thess 2:3). Judas was acting along with this key political movement when he betrayed Christ to the rulers. The Zealot movement was a violent terrorist movement, and it took over the Temple in AD 66 [the Sicarii (dagger-men terrorists)], launching the Jewish Civil War and Great Revolt against Rome that ended in the destruction of the Temple, Jerusalem, and most of Israel's cities.

(3) The Thessalonians knew the person or political force at the Temple that was restraining the man of sin from taking it over for himself and his militia at the time Paul wrote (2 Thess 2:6).

(4) The Thessalonians were to expect the man of sin to overcome the resistance at the Temple and take it over. Once that event took place, the Thessalonian persecution was close to over (2 Thess 1:4-7/Acts 17:1-8). All the Judaizers of the Empire had made pilgrimage to Jerusalem for the Mosaic spring festivals (Deut 16:16/Ex 34:23-24/Ex.23:17) when the Romans came and trapped everyone inside the city then leveled it with "all its children inside" (Lk 19:43-44; Mt 24:1-3)

So, As to the "man of lawlessness/the son of perdition," scripture makes it clear that he was being restrained from siezing control of Herod's Temple in Jerusalem at the time Paul was writing to the Thessalonians (see: 2 Thess 2:6-7). The passage itself shows He was already a blood pumping, air-breathing, grown Human MAN at the time Paul wrote the passage, and the Thessalonians already knew who was restraining him from his takeover of the temple. This man's lawlessness was already at work in the nation of Israel in Paul's day; only he who then restrained this anarchy continued to do so until he was taken out of the way. And then the lawless one was revealed (2 Thess 2:7-8). This, of course, took place at the Jerusalem Temple within about 10 years of Paul's writing.

The Thessalonian congregation actually knew personally who was at that time restraining the son of perdition from taking control of the Temple -- "And you know what restrains him now" (2 Thess 2:6).

So the passage has a fulfillment clearly contemporary with Paul and the 1st century Thessalonians exactly as Paul stated. That 2 Thess 2 passage MUST be past in fulfillment.

#1 The word Paul used for “temple” is only used here and Rev 11. It’s not used to describe the entire temple complex. Could be translated “shrine”


#2 The man of sin was alive at the time Paul is speaking ?


2 Thessalonians 2: 6And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work.



It’s the “mystery” that’s alive. No one sat in the Temple speaking against every god, proclaiming He was god.


#3 The Thessalonians knew the person or political force at the Temple that was restraining the man of sin from taking it over for himself and his militia at the time Paul wrote ???


They knew from the Olivet Discourse which Paul is teaching from to keep watch for the “AOD standing in the Holy Place’ Matthew 24:15

Paul just told them in 2 Thess 2:3 that man would only be revealed when he sits in the Temple

3Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness



#4 The Thessalonians were to expect the man of sin to overcome the resistance at the Temple and take it over ???


Pure speculation on your part, you’re are reading in your 70AD theory in to the scripture

 

[iamlamad]

Is someone here or anywhere intellectually superior to the more than 90% of English Bible translators who render 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as apostasy or its equivalent?

A Greek word (just like an English word) can have several meanings. The correct translation for apostasia MUST be one that fits the context. In this case, it must be the restrainer "taken out of the way" to fit 3b as the man of sin IS revealed.

If you think a falling away (from what is not included in that Greek word) is the restrainer "taken out of the way," so the man of sin "is revealed," then stick with it. I happen to think the departing (of the church as in the rapture) fits the restrainer "taken out of the way" better.

 

[iamlamad]

2nd Thessalonians 2:1Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,4who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.
Seems pretty clear, that day (our being gathered together to him) won't happen until sometime after the mid-point

Just as Paul taught in his first letter, the departing (of the church) must come first. Paul did not change his mind in this second letter.

 

[iamlamad]

I have considered them and put a lot of time studying apostasy=rapture theory. Have you ? Have you checked to see how other than English translates that word ? They all translate it rebellion, revolt, or apostasy.
The only "oversimplified summary and dismissal" is yours.
2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3 disproves the Pre-Tribulation rapture. This is just an attempt to hang on

No, those verses enforce a pretrib rapture when they are understood. Several of the first translations into English put it as the departing - as in a significant departing.

 

[iamlamad]

Jesus said beware of the scribes. Scribes are those who “tran-scribe” the law or the Scriptures. This would be the scholars of our day who think they know dead languages. I just believe God preserved His words for us today based on Psalms 12:6-7. James says God has chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith (James 2:5). When I think of a poor guy, I don't think of them as being fat cat scholars with a large library. I think of a simple guy like the apostle Peter.

So when I read 2 Thessalonians 2:3 plainly in the English like a simple fisherman would do, it says this:

“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;” (2 Thessalonians 2:3) (KJB).​

The way I understand the words “falling away” does not even remotely sound like a Rapture to me. Granted, I believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture. I also believe in a Mid Trib Gathering up of the saints by angels, too (Mentioned in the Olivet Discourse). But the point here is being simple. Be simple. Do not complicate things. Just read your Bible and believe it plainly. Do not seek to change what God's Word says. For changing God's Word is a very dangerous game to play.

I believe it is implied in the text that the antichrist or beast will be like a false Christ and he will deceive many believers with lying signs and wonders. They will then have had pleasure in unrighteousness (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12). In other words, they departed from the faith (or departed from what God's Word says). Granted, verse 10 (2 Thessalonians 2:10) also includes those who appear to not have received Christ or the love of the truth, too. But the point here is that Jesus warns us against not believing in false Christs in the Olivet Discourse (Which appears to be a hint here in 2 Thessalonians 2:9). This would play into the words “falling away” as mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I cannot read these words “falling away” and get the impression of a Rapture out of it. I simply cannot read it that way. It doesn't sound natural to me. Unless you believe there is no perfect English Bible out there, then by all means, create your own Bible. I will just read and believe my Bible plainly.

Keep in mind, "falling away" is only a translation. Several of the first translations into English put is as "the departing."

Next, keep in mind that what ever one chooses for the translation, it MUST BE (by the very context) the restrainer being "taken out of the way." Verse 3b shows the man of sin IS revealed. The ONLY way he can be revealed is when the restrainer is first taken out of the way. The only possibility in 3a for something taken out of the way is hidden in that Greek word, "apostasia."

Strong's tells us for "apo" it can mean a part of a whole group removed spatially to a different place while the rest of the group is ignored. Then for "Stasia" it is "standing" or stationary. The truth is, the rapture will be SO SUDDEN the rest of the world will seem not to have moved.

 

[iamlamad]

"J. S. Mabie is said to have presented the view that “the departure” refers to the rapture as early as 1859 during a prophecy conference in Los Angeles.[12] He later wrote his view in an article published in November 1895 in a periodical called Morning Star."

The “Departure” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3
Thomas Ice, Pre-Trib Research Center

Apostasy as rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 was unseen, unsaid, and unknown in true Christian orthodoxy prior to the 19th century. Ice confirms Mabie as being the first to present it.

It is a modernist dispensational figment.

So what? Salvation by faith alone was lost for centuries - for many in Martin Luther's time, it was "unseen, unsaid, and unknown." But suddenly, Martin Luther had a revelation and Salvation by faith alone became known and believed by many.

 

[iamlamad]

Departing is a different greek word. The word in question here is a noun. The word is only used twice in the NT. It's used 5 times in the Greek OT, always a rebellion or apostasy from God. This argument "since 500 year old English translations say (depart) it means rapture" is gaining ground in the church. I believe it's a dangerous teaching. People will be saying "that's not the AC because we're still here" This teaching is leading people straight in the arms of the AC.

apostasia: defection, revolt
Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Definition: defection, revolt
Usage: defection, apostasy, revolt.

It is a compound word. It CAN mean something else.

It is a compound word - "apo" and "stasia."

Here is what Strong's says about "apo:

"of separation
of local separation,
after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing,...
of separation of a part from the whole
....where of a whole some part is taken

of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed

of a state of separation, that is of distance
...physical, of distance of place

At the rapture, will some part of the entire population be taken? You know the answer is YES.

Will those taken be separated by DISTANCE? Again the answer is YES.

The other part of the compound word 'stasia" is where we get "stationary" or "not moving" from.

Putting these two words together then can certainly mean a part of a whole group suddenly moved from where they were to a new location, and it happen so fast, the rest of the whole group seems stationary - not moving.

There can be no doubt Paul knew all this.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Keep in mind, "falling away" is only a translation. Several of the first translations into English put is as "the departing."

Next, keep in mind that what ever one chooses for the translation, it MUST BE (by the very context) the restrainer being "taken out of the way." Verse 3b shows the man of sin IS revealed. The ONLY way he can be revealed is when the restrainer is first taken out of the way. The only possibility in 3a for something taken out of the way is hidden in that Greek word, "apostasia."

Strong's tells us for "apo" it can mean a part of a whole group removed spatially to a different place while the rest of the group is ignored. Then for "Stasia" it is "standing" or stationary. The truth is, the rapture will be SO SUDDEN the rest of the world will seem not to have moved.

Uh, “Apostasia” is where you get the word “apostasy” from. This interpretation also supports the context in 2 Thessalonians 2:9-13. Verse 10 says, “And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.” (2 Thessalonians 2:10). 2 Timothy 3:1-9 warns against how in the last days perilous times will come and men will be lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God. They will have a form of godliness, but they will deny the power thereof. The great falling away is happening today before our eyes. I believe that it is possible that when this falling away happens, it will climax at a tremendous great scale (along with the man of sin being revealed) before the Day of the Lord takes place.

Note: The Day of the Lord is period of time that lasts 3 and a half years. It starts with the breaking of the 6th seal. It continues on with the subsequent trumpet and bowl judgments, the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ destroying the nations, and it ends with this Earth being purified by fire.

As for the KJB: I believe it to be the divinely pure Word of God for today.

30 reasons why the KJB is the divine and pure Word of God for today

Side Note:

You also would have to suggest that folks who only had the KJB for hundreds of years and who preached out of it before the Modern Translations showed up and before Textual Criticism showed up could not trust what their Bible said plainly.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Matthew 24:24 says, “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.”

Who could possibly be a false prophet who could potentially deceive the very elect (thereby bringing in a great falling away) before the Day of the Lord? The man of sin mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

 

[parousia70]

The man of sin was alive at the time Paul is speaking ?

Yes. Without question.


2 Thessalonians 2: 6And you know what is restraining him now

 

[jgr]

A Greek word (just like an English word) can have several meanings. The correct translation for apostasia MUST be one that fits the context. In this case, it must be the restrainer "taken out of the way" to fit 3b as the man of sin IS revealed.

If you think a falling away (from what is not included in that Greek word) is the restrainer "taken out of the way," so the man of sin "is revealed," then stick with it. I happen to think the departing (of the church as in the rapture) fits the restrainer "taken out of the way" better.

More than 90% (actually, 100%) of the translators got it right.

None of them shared your context.

 

[jgr]

So what? Salvation by faith alone was lost for centuries - for many in Martin Luther's time, it was "unseen, unsaid, and unknown." But suddenly, Martin Luther had a revelation and Salvation by faith alone became known and believed by many.

You err.

"Sola fide wasn’t a 16th century invention"

God has never permitted His truth to be completely extinguished, as the foregoing describes. Sola fide endured in faithful remnants through the ages, to the time of its full reinstatement in the Reformation.

Contrast that with "apostasy as rapture".

Unseen, unsaid, and unknown in over 1700 years of true Church history.

 

[Berean Tim]

No, those verses enforce a pretrib rapture when they are understood. Several of the first translations into English put it as the departing - as in a significant departing.

2nd Thess 2:Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him,
Paul uses "gathered" to describe the rapture in vs1. Why would he use a different word in vs3 ?

Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction

Your exchange of the biblical definition of "apostasia" would force the reading of vs3 as this,

Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day (rapture) will not come, unless the rebellion(rapture) comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction

The greek word apostasia is never used as a physical departure. Never ! It is used 5 times in the Septuagint always as apostasy/rebellion from God.

From Strong's #646
apostasia: defection, revolt
Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Definition: defection, revolt
Usage: defection, apostasy, revolt.

 

[jgr]

No, those verses enforce a pretrib rapture when they are understood.

Not enforced to 100% of English Bible translators, or to 100% of historical true Church scholars before the 19th century.

 

[Timtofly]

Uh, “Apostasia” is where you get the word “apostasy” from. This interpretation also supports the context in 2 Thessalonians 2:9-13. Verse 10 says, “And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.” (2 Thessalonians 2:10). 2 Timothy 3:1-9 warns against how in the last days perilous times will come and men will be lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God. They will have a form of godliness, but they will deny the power thereof. The great falling away is happening today before our eyes. I believe that it is possible that when this falling away happens, it will climax at a tremendous great scale (along with the man of sin being revealed) before the Day of the Lord takes place.

Note: The Day of the Lord is period of time that lasts 3 and a half years. It starts with the breaking of the 6th seal. It continues on with the subsequent trumpet and bowl judgments, the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ destroying the nations, and it ends with this Earth being purified by fire.

As for the KJB: I believe it to be the divinely pure Word of God for today.

30 reasons why the KJB is the divine and pure Word of God for today

Side Note:

You also would have to suggest that folks who only had the KJB for hundreds of years and who preached out of it before the Modern Translations showed up and before Textual Criticism showed up could not trust what their Bible said plainly.

Where in 2 Peter 3:8 does Peter claim the Day with the Lord is as 3.5 years? Peter claims it is as 1000 years. The Millennium may start at the 6th Seal, but it goes on for 1000 years, not just 3.5. Besides that 3.5 years keeps shrinking each day. Some readers may have to sit through Satan's 42 months which is a fixed 42 months. Not sure why some want to be around where there is no righteousness, and no Holy Spirit present, though.

 

[Timtofly]

Matthew 24:24 says, “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.”

Who could possibly be a false prophet who could potentially deceive the very elect (thereby bringing in a great falling away) before the Day of the Lord? The man of sin mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

Satan deceived Eve. He has already deceived all of mankind, even the elect.

 

[Jamdoc]

In 2 Thessalonians, and what is the nature of the son of perdition who is being withheld? Is it a flesh and blood man - this Man of Sin?

While I agree with your initial views on a seemingly Pre-Wrath Rapture, and that the "man of sin" is a man yet to be revealed, I can't say I agree with your views on who or what The Restrainer is.

The Holy Spirit and the church are probably the majority opinion out there, especially among Christians that believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. The view that the Holy Spirit inhabiting the church is what is holding back Satan and his Antichrist; and whenever the church is raptured away, the Holy Spirit goes with them, and this removal of the church allows Satan to set up his dominion on this world.

Problem #1 / Contradictions
One problem with this view that has the Holy Spirit-filled church as the Restrainer is that it seems to have the order of events reversed. According to 2 Thess 2:1, we are gathered to Christ after the Antichrist is revealed. So how can the Holy Spirit within the church hold back the "man of sin" entering the world if the "man of sin" is already in the world? It seems there is a scriptural problem for Christians that hold this view.

Problem #2 / Can people be saved without the Holy Spirit?
"Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit." (1 Corinthians 12:3)
Implying that people can be saved without the Holy Spirit seems to be a significant problem, biblically, as the core to salvation in Christ is only through the Holy Spirit. Daniel 7:25, Revelation 14:12 and Revelation 20:14 indicate that the saints are indeed upon the earth after the "man of lawlessness" is revealed. It is also an argument from silence to suggest the Holy Spirit is the Restrainer in the Bible.

Spoiler: My view of who The Restrainer is, and it has a rock-solid scriptural foundation in the Bible:

I want to say "the restrainer" is actually Jesus. It is Jesus that undoes the first seal that starts the Antichrist's rise to power. The events unfold because Jesus undoes the seals. Before Jesus undoes the seals, no one world government, no one world religion, nothing.
However "he who letteth" that is taken out of the way, is I believe the Archangel Michael.
Why I believe it is Michael rather than "the church" is because Michael, is the Angel who watches over Israel, but in Revelation 12:7, Michael is in Heaven fighting against Satan, and casts him down to earth. Michael is now "out of the way"
This is backed up by Daniel 12:1

12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

What happens when Michael stands up? A time of trouble.
The great Tribulations happen when Michael moves from watching Israel, to fighting Satan in Heaven and casting him out.

 

[Jamdoc]

No, those verses enforce a pretrib rapture when they are understood. Several of the first translations into English put it as the departing - as in a significant departing.

It's a departing from the faith.
use context and think about how that makes sense.
Paul is saying that the Lord cannot come back and gather us to Him until.... .... the Lord comes back and gathers us to Him?
all of these misidentified parts of 2 Thessalonians 2 don't make sense when you take the verses in context and realize their dependencies on each other.
2 Thessalonians 2:1 is referring back to 1 Thessalonians 4, the rapture passage. Paul is saying that has not happened yet because some people were worried they missed it (2 Thessalonians 2:2), Paul further explains that it CANNOT happen until 2 prerequisite conditions are met first: Apostasy, that is people leaving the faith, and the rise of the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4).
So let's be clear about this, Paul is saying that the rapture cannot happen, until two things happen first.
You cannot have one of those two things happening first be the rapture itself, otherwise there are no prerequisite conditions and what Paul said makes no sense.
Then Paul goes into saying that the revealing of the man of sin, ALSO has a prerequisite condition.
Since the Rapture is the end of this chain of events of prerequisite condition for man of sin, which is a prerequisite condition for rapture... the rapture of the saints cannot be the restrainer that is the prerequisite condition of the antichrist being revealed, otherwise it again makes no sense.

If Paul was teaching an imminent pre tribulation rapture, all he'd have had to have said is "no, the rapture hasn't happened yet, I'm still here, but it could happen at any time!"